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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Faith without works........is Faith.
- Thread starter Kidron
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TheBarrd
Member
Just so. You can never "work" your way to salvation.
Consider a man who has the Holy Spirit of God within his heart.
He looks around himself and he sees someone in need. He doesn't stop to consider whether he's "right with God"...he looks for a way to meet that need, as Jesus Himself would do.
He's the kind of guy who will have tears glistening in his eyes when he sees those commercials about starving children, or abused animals...and it's a pretty good bet that he sends his money to such causes.
He isn't thinking about whether or not he is pleasing God...he is concentrating on finding ways to help.
That is what "living faith" does.
Someone who has truly been "saved" has the spirit of God within him. He has God's laws written on tables of flesh...in his very heart.
Those who worry about losing their salvation haven't found it yet...
Hear James:
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Obadiah
Member
OK, everyone who is active here right now should have had a chance to read, so I'm opening this back up. There are many good points that are being made on all sides of this. Please continue to make them within the rules and guidelines so we can keep this thread a good testimony to Christians and non-christians alike who are reading this. Thank you.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You are defining 'born of God' as meaning when we walk in the new nature (which by the way, makes YOU the one that is saying 'born again' means sinlessness). None of us is suggesting that the person born of God never, ever sins. You did read the OP, right?
Here is how 'born of God' is defined by John:
"1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 John 5:1 NASB)
But you have erroneously defined it as 'the moments that a person walks in the new nature'. And your doctrine has obviously done that in order to avoid the truth of what John is saying, that the person who is not living a habitually righteous life is not saved. Of course, that chaffs directly with your doctrine that one CAN live habitually in a characteristically sinful lifestyle and still be saved/ born again.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Or, lost it through their own contemptuous rejection of the blood that sanctified them:
"29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)
Lack of assurance, because of a lack of faith, is not limited, scripturally, to only the person who never believed. The sanctified person who later rejects the blood of Christ as the way to be justified/saved loses the security of salvation, too, and instead has the wrath of God's Judgment to be assured about instead:
"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. " (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB capitals in original)
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Your doctrine is conveniently ignoring redemption in it's misguided desire to only call that which looks, smells, and feels like a gift a gift if it is specifically called one in the scriptures:
"24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" ( Romans 3:24 NASB)
"7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us." (Ephesians 1:7-8 NASB)
"14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. " (Colossians 1:14 NASB)
The point is, our justification, our redemption, our salvation is a free gift given to us by God. As we see above, our redemption, our justification--the lavish gift of God's grace--is exactly the forgiveness of sins. Yet you insist that the forgiveness of sins is not a free gift from God.
And let's not forget the point of all this and why you have to say forgiveness is not a gift from God given free of charge, not given in exchange for work done. If you acknowledge that it is a gift then your doctrine (not mine) has to include it in the gifts that Paul says are irrevocable in Romans 11:29 NASB. But the problem is, it's impossible to do that because Jesus taught us that forgiveness is in fact something given freely in the kingdom and which the Father will revoke if we show contempt for that gift by not reciprocating it to others (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB). Your doctrine has been unable to reconcile this truth with OSAS belief but instead just blows it off as....as....I don't know....OSAS just ignores it!
But even according to your own doctrine redemption is included in the gifts that (you say) are irrevocable because it's in the context you say Paul is using to define the gifts. That context being Romans 3:24 NASB. And the scriptures say without stuttering that redemption is exactly equivalent to the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:14 NASB). Yet you insist on saying it's not a gift and therefore is NOT included in the gifts that are irrevocable. Do you want to say that since it is not a gift that it IS revocable? If that's the point you want to make, make it, and let's move on!
....gifts which includes redemption (Romans 3:24 NASB), which is the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:14 NASB). It's in the context of what your doctrine (not mine) says determines the gifts that are irrevocable. So let's start talking about why your doctrine thinks forgiveness is irrevocable in the kingdom (it's in the context your doctrine says determines what gifts are irrevocable). But you'll have to stop ignoring Matthew 18:23-35 NASB where Jesus says forgiveness IS revocable in the kingdom of God.
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TheBarrd
Member
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith..." (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)
You need to finish that verse:
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
IOW, you did nothing to earn your salvation...it is yours because God gifted it to you.
No one comes to Christ on his or her own...
Joh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And each one who is drawn in this way receives into him/herself a bit of God:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Did you catch that? Notice: "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"...that
sounds pretty final, doesn't it?
"Which is the earnest of our inheritance"...
Have you ever bought real estate? Perhaps you were asked to put some "earnest" money on the table, as evidence of your intention to complete your purchase.
This guarantees that the real estate agent will not deal with any one else on this property...iow, she won't "sell it out from under you."
In the same way, the new believer receives the Holy Spirit....and, it guarantees that God will complete His purchase that He made with His Own Blood.
Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Remember, you are not your own, you were bought with a price:
1Co_6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
And finally, this most precious promise:
Heb_13:5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
TheBarrd
Member
Is it possible for someone that we have known, and perhaps even loved as a Christian brother or sister to turn his or her back on God, and walk away from Him?
Sadly, yes it is.
However, God, as usual, knows what we do not:
1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
IOW, those folks you thought of as having lost their salvation never had it to begin with.
Sadly, yes it is.
However, God, as usual, knows what we do not:
1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
IOW, those folks you thought of as having lost their salvation never had it to begin with.
ANd may I suggest that the person who thinks they can lose their salvation does not truly understand the grace by which one is saved. (same verse)
Here is the error. It is not our faith that keeps us saved any more that it is our faith that saves us. We are saved "through faith". iow, God saves only those who believe. If one thinks their action of believing is what saves them, then they have saved themselves by themselves. Nothing could be further from the truth. God does the saving. Always.
The huge problem is that are no verses that teach that salvation is lost if one loses their faith.
These are born again believers. They were just negative towards doctrine, and not living in the "divine" sphere of the Christian way of life.
Johns churches taught grace and true doctrine and how to live in the divine Christian life. These negative believers opted to leave and live in the cosmic system. They(negative believers) did what John was telling his audience NOT to do.
If a believer in His audience left and went back to the cosmic system(world) after John told them not to, would they lose their salvation?
1 John 2:19
Calvinism needs them to be Un-born to fit their perseverance of the saints.
Your opinion is noted.
This is a different passage and parable. Jesus never mixed His parables. Let's keep them straight and separate.
Since the gift of God is eternal life, and God's gifts are irrevocable, your view of each of these verses is in error. btw, none of them SAY that one can lose their salvation. No verse says that.
This is incorrect. I didn't define being "born of God" that way ever. My point was that no one sins from his new nature. The new nature is what the "His seed abides in him" refers to in 1 Jn 3:9.
None of my posts have defined it that way. You've grossly misunderstood what I did post, apparently.
Nope. Where does John say anything such a one "is not saved"?
Actually, the chaff is rubbing your camp that way. When grace is not understood, this is the result.
We are saved by grace and kept by that same grace.
Where does the Bible teach that God puts the believer in charge of their own salvation. Salvation is of the Lord (Psa 37:39, Jonah 2:9 - But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from the LORD.”) from beginning to end (Heb 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.).
My guidance is what the Bible defines as a gift; not anyone else's assumptions.
btw, the gift in Rom 3:24 is justification because of the phrase "justified as a gift". Redemption in that verse is NOT what is being called a gift.
Please show me any verse that calls redemption a gift. Anyway, if one wants to argue that redemption is a gift of God, then it too would be irrevocable. So, how does that help your argument?
And because they are gifts of God, they are all irrevocable.
Because the Bible never calls forgiveness a gift. Paul never did. There is no contextual reason to call it a gift when the Bible doesn't. This is just an attempt to drag Matt 18 into the discussion and trying to demonstrate someone YOU are calling a gift that was revoked. Again, no contextual support or evidence for such an attempt.
Here is the only point upon which to ponder and accept: "the gifts of God are irrevocable". Rom 11:29
Since you're view is that eternal life is revocable, please direct me to such a verse that says so.
After all that Paul wrote about gifts in Romans, it is simply ridiculous to try to bring Matt 18 into the discussion. Absolutely zero context from Romans to do that.
However, since your view rejects the point that eternal life is irrevocable, please show me where in Romans Paul excluded eternal life from what he was talking about in Rom 11:29.
If that can't be done, your point is totally without merit.
TheBarrd
Member
I'm not a Calvinist.
But I do know what "not of us" means...
Jethro Bodine
Member
You forget so quickly. Here it is again:
Whether you meant to, or not, you included justification/ redemption in the context that you yourself set that defines what gifts Paul is saying are irrevocable in Romans 11:29. But you can't include justification/ redemption--the forgiveness of our sins (Ephesians 1:7 NASB, Colossians 1:14 NASB--in those gifts because we know that he's not talking about those free gifts. We know that because that would put Paul in direct contradiction with Jesus who taught in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB that forgiveness can and will be revoked from the person who treats it with contempt.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's a ridiculous argument. The context is the same in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB as it is Romans 3:24--forgiveness in the kingdom of God. But you're clinging to a worthless argument that says because it's in another book of the Bible it is out of context with Romans. All OSAS does with Jesus' teaching is treat it as a meaningless nothing.
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I should apologize, I came from a calvinist/RT church. And that was a pet verse of "our calvinism" that we used for "our perseverance of the saints."(they really were not saved, because they didn't 'persevere' in their works/fruit/faith.)
IMO, John is talking about our modern denominations. A legalistic believer is going to leave a doctrinal church. They are "not of us/doctrinal grace believers." So they left to a place to tickle their ears.
I do not see "not of us" as doomed to the eternal lake of fire. They were believers who did not continue in the grace and knowledge of the Lord........they will ENTER the kingdom, but they are missing out on INHERITING the kingdom.
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