FILIOQUE: From the Father and the Son

[jeremiah1five]

For those not aware of this issue it was the very issue that divided the Western Roman Church and the Eastern Greek Church in 1054 AD.
From WHO does the Holy Spirit originate?
I believe BOTH the Father AND the Son:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal. 4:6.

This covers it. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It ought to tell people something that we are only told what is expedient for us to know.
Could Jesus have additionally unpacked this whole Spiritual mechanism and taken it one step further in explaining ?
Of course.
Does not mean that had He done so we would be able to understand?
Of course not.
For me there comes a point in pursuit of what we are not told, that a person is basically saying they are able to know everything that God knows .
That the dimensions of their mind are equal to God's mind .
This is naked infidelity, boarding on self-worship & idolatry in my opinion.
I am of the opinion that even when we are in the realm of Heaven and our knowledge is expanded beyond anything we can now imagine , even then there will be aspects of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost relationship that will be known only within the Godhead and remain a mystery to us throughout eternity .

 

[jeremiah1five]

It ought to tell people something that we are only told what is expedient for us to know.
Could Jesus have additionally unpacked this whole Spiritual mechanism and taken it one step further in explaining ?
Of course.
Does not mean that had He done so we would be able to understand?
Of course not.
For me there comes a point in pursuit of what we are not told, that a person is basically saying they are able to know everything that God knows .
That the dimensions of their mind are equal to God's mind .
This is naked infidelity, boarding on self-worship & idolatry in my opinion.
I am of the opinion that even when we are in the realm of Heaven and our knowledge is expanded beyond anything we can now imagine , even then there will be aspects of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost relationship that will be known only within the Godhead and remain a mystery to us throughout eternity .

29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut. 29:29.

The "things that are revealed" is the Mind of Christ which is the Mind of the Spirit which is the Scriptures/Word of God.

And the Only Person that can unlock its true meaning is a good English translation, preferably an Authorized Version and the King James Version fits the requirement.

 

[Consecrated Life]

29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut. 29:29.

The "things that are revealed" is the Mind of Christ which is the Mind of the Spirit which is the Scriptures/Word of God.

And the Only Person that can unlock its true meaning is a good English translation, preferably an Authorized Version and the King James Version fits the requirement.

Right, the things revealed to us being only the things we are able to bear.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For those not aware of this issue it was the very issue that divided the Western Roman Church and the Eastern Greek Church in 1054 AD.
From WHO does the Holy Spirit originate?
I believe BOTH the Father AND the Son:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal. 4:6.

This covers it. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son.

"Sending" is not "procession", Jesus sent the Holy Spirit who proceeds (emanates) from the Father:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)

The Filioque implies a procession from the Son, which neither Jesus or the Original Creed says.

On such weighty matters its best we obey the premise here stated by Paul, not "think beyond what is written":

6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. (1 Cor. 4:6 NKJ)

The Filioque addition did spur Schism in the Church, one "against the other."

The Orthodox are right, unscriptural "double procession" undermines the unique role of the Father as the Patriarch of the Holy Trinity and is completely unnecessary verbiage.

 

[journeyman]

For those not aware of this issue it was the very issue that divided the Western Roman Church and the Eastern Greek Church in 1054 AD.
From WHO does the Holy Spirit originate?
I believe BOTH the Father AND the Son:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal. 4:6.

This covers it. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son.

Hebrews says the veil that separated the holy of holies from all others is symbolic of his flesh. God behind his flesh,

The Holy Ghost this signifying Heb.9:8

 

[jeremiah1five]

"Sending" is not "procession", Jesus sent the Holy Spirit who proceeds (emanates) from the Father:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)

The Filioque implies a procession from the Son, which neither Jesus or the Original Creed says.

On such weighty matters its best we obey the premise here stated by Paul, not "think beyond what is written":

6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. (1 Cor. 4:6 NKJ)

The Filioque addition did spur Schism in the Church, one "against the other."

The Orthodox are right, unscriptural "double procession" undermines the unique role of the Father as the Patriarch of the Holy Trinity and is completely unnecessary verbiage.

Procession: [From Strong]

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
proceed 10
go out 6
go 5
come 4
depart 3
go forth 2
miscellaneous translations 4
vr go forth 1
[Total Count: 35]

from <G1537> (ek) and <G4198> (poreuomai); to depart, be discharged, proceed, project.

Now, are talking about creed or Scripture?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hebrews says the veil that separated the holy of holies from all others is symbolic of his flesh. God behind his flesh,

The Holy Ghost this signifying Heb.9:8

Which Tabernacle?
On earth or heaven?
BUT Jesus Christ had flesh. Are you taking away His flesh to get to Deity?
Doesn't work that way.
Jesus Christ was a "setting under" (hupostasis) or hypostatic union.

Clarify.

 

[justbyfaith]

For those not aware of this issue it was the very issue that divided the Western Roman Church and the Eastern Greek Church in 1054 AD.
From WHO does the Holy Spirit originate?
I believe BOTH the Father AND the Son:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal. 4:6.

This covers it. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son.

There is actually one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24; Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

 

[jeremiah1five]

There is actually one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24; Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

Go Rams.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Procession: [From Strong]

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
proceed 10
go out 6
go 5
come 4
depart 3
go forth 2
miscellaneous translations 4
vr go forth 1
[Total Count: 35]

from <G1537> (ek) and <G4198> (poreuomai); to depart, be discharged, proceed, project.

Now, are talking about creed or Scripture?

Both words appear in the verse, they are not synonyms. The proof of that is easy, substitute one or the other words for the other, and read it back. If it doesn't make sense, then they are not synonyms:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall PROCEEDS to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)

OR

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who SEND from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)

That's gibberish. The words are different in Greek because they mean different things:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send (3992 πέμπω pempo) to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds (1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai ) from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)


3992 πέμπω pempo
Meaning: 1) to send 1a) to bid a thing to be carried to one 1b) to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another

1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai {ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee}
Meaning: 1) to go forth, go out, depart 2) metaph. 2a) to come forth, to issue, to proceed 2a1) of feelings, affections, deeds, sayings 2b) to flow forth 2b1) of a river 2c) to project, from the mouth of one 2d) to spread abroad, of a rumour

 

[jeremiah1five]

Both words appear in the verse, they are not synonyms. The proof of that is easy, substitute one or the other words for the other, and read it back. If it doesn't make sense, then they are not synonyms:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall PROCEEDS to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)

OR

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who SEND from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)

That's gibberish. The words are different in Greek because they mean different things:

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send (3992 πέμπω pempo) to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds (1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai ) from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)


3992 πέμπω pempo
Meaning: 1) to send 1a) to bid a thing to be carried to one 1b) to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another

1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai {ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee}
Meaning: 1) to go forth, go out, depart 2) metaph. 2a) to come forth, to issue, to proceed 2a1) of feelings, affections, deeds, sayings 2b) to flow forth 2b1) of a river 2c) to project, from the mouth of one 2d) to spread abroad, of a rumour

One is spoken in the first person.
The other in the second person.
Both are verbs.

 

[Alfred Persson]

One is spoken in the first person.
The other in the second person.
Both are verbs.

That doesn't change anything, they are not synonyms. You can send someone, but he doesn't "proceed" from your Person. You send someone in your vicinity. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, not just His "vicinity."

The Son is the Father's Only Begotten, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father is the "Monarch" of the Holy Trinity, without implying any inequality. They are distinct as to "Persons", not as to "substance." God equally in Three Persons, but the Father is not the Son, and the Father and Son are not the Holy Spirit.

We are speaking about infinite God, of course our language fails. All we really know is there is One Yahweh God, in Three Persons Father Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[journeyman]

Which Tabernacle?
On earth or heaven?

I just showed how the writer of Hebrews says the one on earth is symbolic of the one in heaven.

BUT Jesus Christ had flesh. Are you taking away His flesh to get to Deity?

Unlike the rest of us, his flesh proves his Diety, because he is holy,

neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psa.16:10 Act.2:27

Doesn't work that way.

Yes it does work that way, because the Messiah has always been and will always be One with our Father.

Jesus Christ was a "setting under" (hupostasis) or hypostatic union.

Clarify.

I don't know what you mean by those terms.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That doesn't change anything, they are not synonyms. You can send someone, but he doesn't "proceed" from your Person. You send someone in your vicinity. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, not just His "vicinity."

The Son is the Father's Only Begotten, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father is the "Monarch" of the Holy Trinity, without implying any inequality. They are distinct as to "Persons", not as to "substance." God equally in Three Persons, but the Father is not the Son, and the Father and Son are not the Holy Spirit.

We are speaking about infinite God, of course our language fails. All we really know is there is One Yahweh God, in Three Persons Father Son and Holy Spirit.

The word "proceed" also means "depart, be discharged, proceed, project.
The word "send" means 'apparently a primary verb; to dispatch (from the subject view or point of departure, whereas hiemi [as a stronger form of eimi] refers rather to the object point or terminus ad quem, and <G4724> (stello) denotes properly the orderly motion involved), especially on a temporary errand; also to transmit, bestow, or wield. - Strong's.

Ever heard of the Grandville Sharps Rule?

"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

Example:

"to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Pe 1:1.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" Titus 2:13.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Pet. 1:3.

Here's another:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6.

The "everlasting Father" is the same Person as the "child is born" and "Prince of Peace."

But that's the great mystery of the Trinity, isn't it. How can the Father be the Son? NO, I'm not saying the Father was crucified, but you have to take note here what Isaiah says in 9:6. It blows my mind, too.
Explain how Isaiah is saying the "child is born" with Him being "the everlasting Father."

And then we'll continue.

If you can't explain it then you can't "proceed" on this thread because you can't get around the possibility that the Holy Spirit was indeed 'PROCEEDS" from Father and Son.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The word "proceed" also means "depart, be discharged, proceed, project.
The word "send" means 'apparently a primary verb; to dispatch (from the subject view or point of departure, whereas hiemi [as a stronger form of eimi] refers rather to the object point or terminus ad quem, and <G4724> (stello) denotes properly the orderly motion involved), especially on a temporary errand; also to transmit, bestow, or wield. - Strong's.

Ever heard of the Grandville Sharps Rule?

"Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

Example:

"to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Pe 1:1.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" Titus 2:13.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Pet. 1:3.

Here's another:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6.

The "everlasting Father" is the same Person as the "child is born" and "Prince of Peace."

But that's the great mystery of the Trinity, isn't it. How can the Father be the Son? NO, I'm not saying the Father was crucified, but you have to take note here what Isaiah says in 9:6. It blows my mind, too.
Explain how Isaiah is saying the "child is born" with Him being "the everlasting Father."

And then we'll continue.

If you can't explain it then you can't "proceed" on this thread because you can't get around the possibility that the Holy Spirit was indeed 'PROCEEDS" from Father and Son.

The Father is not the Son, different people can have the same title. The title describes a "function" that is done, not oneness in nature. Different men can have the same title "fireman", different children referred to as "my son".


The Granville Sharp rule does NOT apply to John 15:26, there is no conjunction "and" connecting the two nouns and the definite article "the" occurs twice, not once: Before "Helper" and "Spirit of truth."

It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to know the difference between being "sent towards a designated place" by Jesus, and "go out" or "proceed" from the Person of the Father.

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send (3992 πέμπω pempo) to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds (1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai ) from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)


3992 πέμπω pempo
Meaning: 1) to send 1a) to bid a thing to be carried to one 1b) to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another

1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai {ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee}
Meaning: 1) to go forth, go out, depart 2) metaph. 2a) to come forth, to issue, to proceed 2a1) of feelings, affections, deeds, sayings 2b) to flow forth 2b1) of a river 2c) to project, from the mouth of one 2d) to spread abroad, of a rumour

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Father is not the Son, different people can have the same title. The title describes a "function" that is done, not oneness in nature. Different men can have the same title "fireman", different children referred to as "my son".


The Granville Sharp rule does NOT apply to John 15:26, there is no conjunction "and" connecting the two nouns and the definite article "the" occurs twice, not once: Before "Helper" and "Spirit of truth."

It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to know the difference between being "sent towards a designated place" by Jesus, and "go out" or "proceed" from the Person of the Father.

"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send (3992 πέμπω pempo) to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds (1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai ) from the Father, He will testify of Me. (Jn. 15:26 NKJ)


3992 πέμπω pempo
Meaning: 1) to send 1a) to bid a thing to be carried to one 1b) to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another

1607 ἐκπορεύομαι ekporeuomai {ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee}
Meaning: 1) to go forth, go out, depart 2) metaph. 2a) to come forth, to issue, to proceed 2a1) of feelings, affections, deeds, sayings 2b) to flow forth 2b1) of a river 2c) to project, from the mouth of one 2d) to spread abroad, of a rumour

Explain how Isaiah is saying the "child is born" with Him being "the everlasting Father."

And then we'll continue.

 

[JLB]

29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut. 29:29.

The "things that are revealed" is the Mind of Christ which is the Mind of the Spirit which is the Scriptures/Word of God.

And the Only Person that can unlock its true meaning is a good English translation, preferably an Authorized Version and the King James Version fits the requirement.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


We understand nothing unless the Spirit teaches us.




JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Explain how Isaiah is saying the "child is born" with Him being "the everlasting Father."

And then we'll continue.

Because in Him everyone is born:

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45 NKJ)

Just as the Father is by virtue of creation, the Father of all, the Son is by virtue of His Ransom Sacrifice, the Father of all who believe.

Its a title. It does not describe nature, it describes a relationship with others. You can be Father to your children, I Father to mine, doesn't mean we are one person.

And He is "everlasting Father" because before the foundation of the world, the "lamb was slain" and names written in His "book of everlasting life":

"names... written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)

 

[jeremiah1five]

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


We understand nothing unless the Spirit teaches us.




JLB

But we need the correct translation. God Promised His Word will never fail. He has preserved that Word in the Authorized King James Version. If you use a corrupt bible your beliefs will be corrupt because the Spirit of TRUTH does not use error and falsehood to grow a Christian.