FirstResurrection

[Hitch]

I wasn't aware that the first post was part of the canon. If you disagree that there will be a physical resurrection of the dead -once for the dead in Christ and second for the wicked unto judgment. Or do you think it frivilous when the Scriptures refer to a "new body"?

The DEAD in Christ are raised before the living saints are brought to the LORD. If you disagree, your argument is not with me. Its with the Word of God.

Have your read the OP?

Please read the OP before continuing.

Then we can discuss;

.28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Ashua]

Have your read the OP?

Please read the OP before continuing.

Is there a physical resurrection? I have read the scriptures and the OP.

Your argument is based on the concept of spiritual death and seeks to play down the physical resurrection of the dead.

 

[Ashua]

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

1. They are "asleep" which are in Christ and also dead. Can those which were born again in life, be born again when they are restored spiritually?

2. Those who are spiritually born again and still alive will be caught up to be united with the spiritually quickened who are dead. Can spirit beings and flesh beings stand together as one?

3. The Lord comes down to the Earth to call them with a shout/trumpet. (Yom Teruah) and the "dead in Christ rise" from their graves (and the sea casts forth the dead in it as another scripture says)

4. The scriptures insist the saints get a new body. In this sense you can argue a second (natural) birth, but it is still a physical body (albeit a more excellent one than we have now)

 

[Hitch]

Edited by Staff

Edited by Staff


From the OP: Emphasis added.

FirstResurrection

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)

The purpose here is to show cause why the 'First Resurrection' is the regeneration (born-again) of the believer and not a Resurrection of the body.

The believer today meets all the requirements of the definition.

He is 'blessed and made holy '(II cor 5;21) because he is a partner in the Resurrection of Christ.This is how we become joint -heirs.
Any one denying the Resurrrection of Christ is antichrist as unless He was raised bodily from the dead our faith is nothing

EDITED BY STAFF

H
​

 

[jasoncran]

can you keep it civil, if not i'm locking this thread.
no need to say that.

 

[Hitch]

can you keep it civil, if not i'm locking this thread.
no need to say that.

You mean this:

Originally Posted by Ashua
So, when Christ was crucified, was he just born again on the third day? If there is no resurrection, then Christ is dead in vain. I am absolutely astonished how anyone can read the same scriptures and come to some gnostic, mysticistic mal-theological interpretation of the plain message of the Holy Scriptures concerning this doctrine

. I think when a serious charge like that is made it should come with support if not the MODERATOR should remove it out of hand. Dont you ?

 

[jasoncran]

done. this will remain locked till moderator review.

 

[Vic C.]

Please stay on topic. Any more Off Topic Posts will be deleted.

Agreed.

... Matter of fact, I took the liberty of doing just that.

There will be no more insults and other infractions that address the poster and not the issue at hand. Further transgressions will result in warnings and/or infractions. :bigfrown

 

[Vic C.]

I think when a serious charge like that is made it should come with support if not the MODERATOR should remove it out of hand. Dont you ?

No. If the poster doesn't explain their position, you simply ask them to give us some scriptural support. Sometimes you will have to ask a few times, but we should not resort to badgering the member or insulting.

Those who are reading the topic along with us can see if another poster is dodging issues.

Now, with that all out of the way... totopic

 

[Hitch]

Re: FirstResurrection One More try

Back to Substance

Sorry for the length but ol' Mat says it much better than I;




Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.



Spiritual regeneration is described in the NT as coming back from the dead from Paul's letters to the Gospels;

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.


Henry:

First, A resurrection that now is (v. 29), a resurrection from the death of sin to the life of righteousness, by the power of Christ's grace. The hour is coming, and now is. It is a resurrection begun already, and further to be carried on, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. This is plainly distinguished from that in v. 28, which speaks of the resurrection at the end of time. This says nothing, as that does, of the dead in their graces, and of all of them, and their coming forth. Now, 1. Some think this was fulfilled in those whom he miraculously raised to life, Jairus's daughter, the widow's son, and Lazarus; and it is observable that all whom Christ raised were spoken to, as, Damsel, arise; Young man, arise; Lazarus, come forth; whereas those raised under the Old Testament were raised, not by a word, but other applications, 1 Kings xvii. 21; 2 Kings iv. 34; xiii. 21. Some understand it of those saints that rose with Christ; but we do not read of the voice of the Son of God calling them. But, 2. I rather understand it of the power of the doctrine of Christ, for the recovering and quickening of those that were dead in trespasses and sins, Eph. ii. 1. The hour was coming when dead souls should be made alive by the preaching of the gospel, and a spirit of life from God accompanying it: nay, it then was, while Christ was upon earth. It may refer especially to the calling of the Gentiles, which is said to be as life from the dead, and, some think, was prefigured by Ezekiel's vision (ch. xxxvii. 1), and foretold, Isa. xxvi. 19. Thy dead men shall live. But it is to be applied to all the wonderful success of the gospel, among both Jews and Gentiles; an hour which still is, and is still coming, till all the elect be effectually called. Note, (1.) Sinners are spiritually dead, destitute of spiritual life, sense, strength, and motion, dead to God, miserable, but neither sensible of their misery nor able to help themselves out of it. (2.) The conversion of a soul to God is its resurrection from death to life; then it begins to live when it begins to live to God, to breathe after him, and move towards him. (3.) It is by the voice of the Son of God that souls are raised to spiritual life; it is wrought by his power, and that power conveyed and communicated by his word: The dead shall hear, shall be made to hear, to understand, receive, and believe, the voice of the Son of God, to hear it as his voice; then the Spirit by it gives life, otherwise the letter kills. (4.) The voice of Christ must be heard by us, that we may live by it. They that hear, and attend to what they hear, shall live. Hear and your soul shall live, Isa. lv. 3.

Bold emphasis added

Posts #56,57 contain more of Henry's thoughts wrt Jn 5. I wont repeat all of that here. ​

 

[Hitch]

There seems to be two main problems with this idea.

1. The success of the Gospel in history must be acknowledged.

2. Submitting to our Lord's personal authority as the final word is required.

A. Futurism calls for increasing darkness rather than increasing light. Historically the Fall is more powerful than the Resurrection .

B. Futurism not only needs to countermand what Jesus said, it is built on that sandy foundation . see Jn 5;28-6;54.