For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Guest]

Avbunyon said somewhere in another thread months ago that if he started to get drunk, run around on his wife, and rob banks for a living (and live this way as a lifestyle) that he would still be going to heaven because he was 'sealed'. Now where this is, I don't know ...it's in one of the older OSAS threads. Maybe you could ask him about that.
My problem with that sort of teaching isn't that I don't realize Gods mercy in certain situations ...my problem is that we should always teach obedience first and foremost. Otherwise we teach things that become a license for sin or that can cause others to stumble.

Destiny - I am sure this is not going to be new to you, however, the teaching of eternal security coupled with the perserverance of the saints does not allow for "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow I will die and be in heaven.".

I would argue that one who is 'sealed', God would not allow to live a life such as the one you described. How long God would allow it to happen - I do not know. However, 2 Tim 3:16 speaks that the Bible is used to correction and reproof. I believe that God will not allow one of His to backslide without correcting and reproofing that believer.

 

[destiny]

Destiny - I am sure this is not going to be new to you, however, the teaching of eternal security coupled with the perserverance of the saints does not allow for "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow I will die and be in heaven.".

I would argue that one who is 'sealed', God would not allow to live a life such as the one you described. How long God would allow it to happen - I do not know. However, 2 Tim 3:16 speaks that the Bible is used to correction and reproof. I believe that God will not allow one of His to backslide without correcting and reproofing that believer.

And I agree

 

[Solo]

How many born again believers build inadequately upon the foundation of Jesus Christ? ALL

What portions of this inadequate attempt of building on the foundation of Jesus Christ will remain for eternity? NONE

What portions of a believers building on the foundation of Jesus Christ will remain for eternity? ALL THAT WERE DONE AS A BELIEVER WALKED IN THE SPIRIT

How many born again believers escape their lusts in the flesh prior to physical death? NONE

How many born again believers continue in sin until their physical death? ALL

How many sins of a born again believer are not paid for at the cross of calvary? NONE

I will rephrase the question; How many sins of a born again believer ARE paid for at the cross of Calvary? EVERY STINKIN' LAST ONE, PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE!!!!

How many born again believers who do not believe in a believer being eternally secure in Christ Jesus continue in sin? ALL

How many born again believers who continue to sin prior to their physical death will be cast into hell? NONE

 

[unred typo]

Here are some selected verses for ALL of you with selective hearing:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We are saved through him, not once and for all time in a single moment of belief. If the belief does not last, neither does the salvation. This faith is not a mental assent to facts about who he is and what he did for us but a faith that gives us a reason and a hope to follow and obey him. Faith without works is dead. ( James 2:26 ) We have been justified by his blood and his blood continues to cleanse us from all unrighteousness as long as we walk in the light of his teaching. 1 John 1:7 says “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.†This is clearly shown as the light of his teaching in 1 John. Look at 1 John 2:9 -10 : “He that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.â€Â

You cannot separate the teacher from his teaching. This concept that you can be a follower of Christ and not follow him is total absurdity.

If you were pulled from a fire by a fireman, then you are saved, but you run back into the burning building, are you still saved? No, you are like a sow returning to her wallowing in the mud. 2 Peter 2:22 ( in fact, all of 2 Peter pertains to this. )

We are saved, in the past tense, from the sins that are past. We must continue to walk with Christ if we want to continue to be saved. Read Romans 3:24 -26 ( “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.†) By telling people they are saved forever, you are giving them a false security and leaving them open to being complacent and letting those things slip that we have been taught that will keep us in Christ.

I know you want to ignore the book of Hebrews because you apparently don’t believe 1 Corinthians 12:13 , ( “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit†) but these words are written to believers:

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

Hebrews 3:12 - 15 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; While it is said, Today if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Take your heads out of the sand and stop playing church! Your salvation depends on it, not just some jewels for your crown. Can you be perfect in this life? Yes, by making a conscious decision to walk in love for one another, in deed and in truth, forgiving one another as God for Christ’s sake has forgiven you, for if you forgive not every man his brother, neither will your heavenly father forgive you, but if you do, then the blood of Christ will cleanse you from all unrighteousness.

 

[AVBunyan]

Misrepresentation

I think the thorn in my side concerning the OSAS issue is that a lot of times its focus is more on 'what you can get away with' than on walking in obedience to God. This won't produce true disciples.

Ok folks - it appears I am the one so let's get the show on the road here.

First off thanks Judy for challenging this statement made by the above poster.

I’ve never sought to make light of sin nor have I placed the emphasis on 'what you can get away with'. When discussing this OSAS issue my emphasis has always been on how the sinner is justified before God for an understanding of this doctrine clears up OSAS.

Do I believe a true saint can sin? Yes.
Do I believe a true saint will sin? Yes. Rom. 7
Do I believe a true saint should sin? An emphatic no!!!
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I’ve been posting here for almost 5 years and I trust some of you can attest to my stand here even if others cannot see my stand. I believe the saint lives according to:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; and..
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
And a few more..

Grace teaches a true saint how to live. “Loose-it†on the other hand live by the law – this is very evident for they place the emphasis on obedience so much that they have made their prideful obedience the basis for their justification which is contrary to Paul. People who spend talking about their great obedience are most likely counting on their great obedience to justify themselves before God.

Bottom line – the above poster twisted my view on grace and misrepresented what I believe about the practical Christian life. This was a cheap shot and uncalled for. They did this because it is evident their understanding of grace and justification is lacking at best.

Now to rub salt in the wound: Do I believe that if I “started to get drunk, run around on his wife, and rob banks for a living (and live this way as a lifestyle)†that I’d still be saved? An emphatic yes. Would I ever do the above? I pray I wouldn’t but it is within all true saints to blow it. But if I were to do the above then I’d loose my wife, my testimony, my job, my joy, my peace and a lot more but my salvation? Nope – that is settled in Christ.

I should have left the Ignore button on.

God bless

 

[destiny]

Now to rub salt in the wound: Do I believe that if I “started to get drunk, run around on his wife, and rob banks for a living (and live this way as a lifestyle)†that I’d still be saved? An emphatic yes. Would I ever do the above? I pray I wouldn’t but it is within all true saints to blow it. But if I were to do the above then I’d loose my wife, my testimony, my job, my joy, my peace and a lot more but my salvation? Nope – that is settled in Christ.

And this is what you chose to (emphasize) before that caused problems between you and I. Something that is sanctified is something that is made pure and set a part. This holds no place for ongoing pollution and worldly (criminal) living. If you believe it does then you have no idea why grace is given or what sanctification means.
The new birth includes obedience.
Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27 as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So simple even a caveman can get it.
:-D

 

[Atonement]

Watching to many Geico commercials are we?? :-D :-D

 

[unred typo]

How many born again believers build inadequately upon the foundation of Jesus Christ? ALL

What portions of this inadequate attempt of building on the foundation of Jesus Christ will remain for eternity? NONE

What portions of a believers building on the foundation of Jesus Christ will remain for eternity? ALL THAT WERE DONE AS A BELIEVER WALKED IN THE SPIRIT

How many born again believers escape their lusts in the flesh prior to physical death? NONE

How many born again believers continue in sin until their physical death? ALL

How many sins of a born again believer are not paid for at the cross of calvary? NONE

I will rephrase the question; How many sins of a born again believer ARE paid for at the cross of Calvary? EVERY STINKIN' LAST ONE, PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE!!!!

How many born again believers who do not believe in a believer being eternally secure in Christ Jesus continue in sin? ALL

How many born again believers who continue to sin prior to their physical death will be cast into hell? NONE

Still spreading hoss pucky on those weeds, I see. The sins that are forgiven are the ones that have been confessed and repented of.

OT Example: David:
Psalm 32:5
I acknowledge my sin unto you, and my iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Everlasting OT Truth:
Proverbs 28:13
He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

Everlasting NT truth:
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all (ALL) unrighteousness.

Those who have been born again, not just those who claim to have been born again, have a higher standard of purity:
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:16-18
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

Note: We do not decide to become ‘born again.’ God makes those who are ready, to be born of the Spirit. You didn’t choose when you would be born physically and your heavenly father will choose when you are ready to be born again, not you. You will know this has happened by the signs and gifts following your rebirth. Just as a baby should not be yanked from the womb before he is viable, neither will you be born again until you are able to survive in the spiritual realms of God‘s heavenly kingdom. As you grow spiritually, you will mature and when you are fully developed, God will cause you to be born again. Then you progress into the perfection of Christ.

What about those who never mature enough to be born of the Spirit? I don’t know, but I know God is merciful and not willing that any should perish, especially those who trust in him. The meek shall inherit the earth. The merciful shall obtain mercy. Those who mourn shall be comforted. Those who are persecuted for the kingdom’s sake shall have great rewards. God will judge all by their deeds and the thoughts and intents of their hearts. His judgment will be perfect and right. Why don’t you do your best for him and trust him and stop making excuses?

 

[destiny]

I want to clarify something; I'm not talking about stumbling in sin every now and then after which we get up and go on with God, i'm talking about living no different than the world where sin is a lifestyle.
This is the problem I am speaking of in my above post.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Destiny, Yes, a Christian puts himself in grave danger if he sins constantly. And it could get to the point where he actually tells Jesus to get out of his life and denies publically that Jesus is not God. Also, I would question if a Christian is in so much devilment, if he was ever saved. Do you agree?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Atonement]

The Bible declares there is a "sin unto death:"

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This sin committed by a Christian who grieves God by continually sinning in the face of Light and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. That Christian's life is cut short; meaning, they die prematurely. It is not a reference to being lost or going to hell. A "sin unto death" is not a reference to the unpardonable sin.
John says that we should not pray for those who sin unto death. What does he mean by this? We have a right to pray for any Christian who is in sin, that God would restore him to fellowship. We also have the right to pray that God would spare him from sickness that comes because of sin (James 5:16,17). But if God is going to take him home to heaven prematurley because of his sin then our prayers will have no bearing on the case. We are not to pray for him. This is my understanding on the "sin unto death."

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

Destiny, Yes, a Christian puts himself in grave danger if he sins constantly. And it could get to the point where he actually tells Jesus to get out of his life and denies publically that Jesus is not God. Also, I would question if a Christian is in so much devilment, if he was ever saved. Do you agree?



May God bless, Golfjack

Yes, I agree. I would think his salvation was based on a thought process that was in accordance to certain doctrines, yet without ever having experienced the lifechanging event of being truly born again by the Spirit of God.

 

[golfjack]

reply

The sin unto death is spiritual death, and the reason we shouldn't pray for him is because he is lost and there is no salvation left for him.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Atonement]

golfjack, I would ask that you share Scripture to back up this position, in the mean time it's just your theory. As mine, but I used Scripture for my records.

 

[Vic C.]

... Avbunyon said somewhere in another thread months ago that if he started to get drunk, run around on his wife, and rob banks for a living (and live this way as a lifestyle) that he would still be going to heaven because he was 'sealed'.

I think AV was speaking in the context of a backslide. I also don't recall him saying it was a lifestyle choice. But I see he is here to "speak" for himself.

How's the wrist, B?

 

[AVBunyan]

And this is what you chose to (emphasize) before that caused problems between you and I. Something that is sanctified is something that is made pure and set a part. This holds no place for ongoing pollution and worldly (criminal) living. If you believe it does then you have no idea why grace is given or what sanctification means.
The new birth includes obedience. :-D

Where have I said one should not be obedient? Again, you should put me on Ignore for you misunderstand my every post.

I exaggerate in those examples to illustrate a point - not to condone that kind of living. If you think I condone the abusing of grace then you are again wrong. You pride yourself on your obedience.

I don't spend much time discussing the practical side for until one gets the doctrine of justification down then it is futile. Doctrine determines duty - You emphasize duty based upon a misunderstanding of justification. I'd like to discuss the practical side more but it would be of no use since most are trusting their practical for their justification.

 

[unred typo]

Grace teaches a true saint how to live. “Loose-it†on the other hand live by the law – this is very evident for they place the emphasis on obedience so much that they have made their prideful obedience the basis for their justification which is contrary to Paul. People who spend talking about their great obedience are most likely counting on their great obedience to justify themselves before God.

Obedience is not prideful. Obedience is taking the form of a servant, not being lord of your own life. You obey in humility, not pride. This is in no way contrary to Paul. Paul writes in Philippians 2:5 - 16: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.â€Â

When you set your heart to obey God, he gives you work to do that will please him. You will be building according to his plans and not your own prideful designs, which will be eventually burnt up.

 

[destiny]

Obedience is not prideful. Obedience is taking the form of a servant, not being lord of your own life. You obey in humility, not pride. This is in no way contrary to Paul. Paul writes in Philippians 2:5 - 16: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.â€Â

When you set your heart to obey God, he gives you work to do that will please him. You will be building according to his plans and not your own prideful designs, which will be eventually burnt up.

Thank you, unred

 

[golfjack]

reply

Atonement, I can show you many scriptures about spiritual death. For this debate, I simply asked God to help explain this verse, He witnessed to my spirit through the Holy Spirit the answer. If one really gives careful consideration to Hebrews 6:4-6, and Hebrews 10:26-30, You will see that is possible for one to lose salvation, but extremely difficult to do.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

BTW Destiny - why not take the challenge of my OP which was the purpose of this thread anyway?
So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7

I've never seen you present the above clearly. Maybe you have before you being on my ignore list I've missed it.

At any rate - go for it. I'm all ears.