For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[AVBunyan]

Franci - simple question - Do you believe because I firmly believe in OSAS that I am not going to make it to heaven?
Yes or no?

 

[AVBunyan]

Why? Because Protestants who claim to be saved sometimes do NOT obey God.

In what way?

You are not saying Catholics always do are you?

 

[MarkT]

That is not the issue. A saint doesn't obey God to be saved. That is works salvation. A saint obeys God because He loves God and diligently seeks Him. A person doesn't obey God "because he is already saved". That is not born out in the real world.

Why? Because Protestants who claim to be saved sometimes do NOT obey God. If being saved was like some conveyor belt that is activated by the faith machine, then it wouldn't be a problem. However, the FACT remains that Protestants who make your claim DO sometimes fall away. If even ONE Protestant falls away, the whole idea that faith is the "good works" conveyor belt breaks down.

Clearly, from Scriptures, we are expected to obey God. God gives us the ability to do so. Your problem is that you don't think men can choose to do good, despite the constant reminder from Scriptures that men are righteous BECAUSE they obey God.

Little children, let no one deceive you; he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he (Jesus) also is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Sacred Scripture again shows your theology wrong...

That destroys your concept that man cannot be righteous based on how God sees men through grace. Your view fails to see that God can "pronounce" someone justified because God sees the person has exhibited good "conduct", loving others, etc.

Consider the Psalm that Catholics who pray the Liturgy of the Hours today on every Friday, Psalm 51... David speaks of his inner nature being changed. He wants God to create a pure heart within him, and renew a steadfast spirit within him. He desires that God grant him a willing spirit to sustain him. Thus, man is MADE righteous, not just have a label applied. What God calls righteous IS righteous - since His Word is EFFECTIVE.

Thus, when Jesus says OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, and THEN goes on to say HOW that can be done in the next 2 chapters for heaven sake, Jesus NEVER mentions "alien righteousness", but pleasing God through almsgiving and prayer. He compares the Pharisees because they EXTERNALLY do these acts. The Pharisees obeyed the strict letter of the law, but not the spirit. They didn't kill Samaritans, but hated them in their hearts. They didn't commit adultery, but lusted in their hearts. What does Jesus say? These are not hypothetical teachings meant for the next dispensation, as you try to explain away. These are the FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW - something that men and women of even the OT were able to do by the Spirit...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia, and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blameless. Luke 1:5-6

In God's eyes, they WERE RIGHTEOUS. So were NUMEROUS OT figures. So are we, who obey God and His commandments out of love. God peered into their hearts and found them pleasing, found them diligently seeking the Lord and believing that He will fulfill what He says He will.

The idea that we are a pile of manure has GOT to go... to the toilet where it belongs.

AV is right francis, not so much in his explanations but in the strength of his convictions, not that he knows anything except Christ and him crucified. Must be the Calvinist is somewhat more spiritually minded. The idea that a saved person must necessarily be obedient is correct because the saved person is led by the Spirit. When the Apostles, for instance, saw that the men who came to them had the Spirit, they immediately sent for water to baptise them. The Spirit is the seal of approval. If the man is good soil, then what was planted in him will grow. As long as the foundation is laid, the words of God abide forever, the man will be saved. As for OSAS, I think that's one way of putting it. Tell me. Does your church teach 'losing it'? Strikes me that telling men they can 'lose it' isn't gathering. The danger here is that it will be done to them as they believe. Of course the knowledge that men will fail is given to us as a warning. It is a warning to us that the devil is a roaring lion. He can snatch away what is planted. But I think if the words of God are in the sinner's heart, the sinner will be saved even if only the foundation remains. I think the reason Paul doesn't mention it much is because the idea would be too terrible to contemplate and Paul speaks as he does to believers. Now falling into disbelief has a terrible consequence. But as long as the believer continues to believe, then he will be saved. This is for the endurance of the saints.

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote:
I believe the saint should obey God but not in order to be saved but because he is already saved - Can I be more clear and simple?

No, you couldn’t. You couldn’t be more wrong either. You are saved from your sins when you confess and repent of them. You can be saved from your past sins right now, but you can’t be saved from future sins unless and until you repent of them. Jesus died for all sins, past, present and future and his blood is sufficient for all the sins you could ever commit, but it is supplied as called for and only when repentance has been made. That is just too clear and simple, isn’t it.

So let me confuse the issue with a nice analogy. We love those.

Let’s compare it to water. Are you cleaned from all filth, past, present and future by the water in your shower? Sure, it is an abundant and sufficient supply. Are you clean right now? You have been washed by the water in your shower this morning, I presume. Does that mean you don’t ever have to take another shower? Aren’t you saved from filth this morning and every morning from now on? Yes, but you must admit you need a shower, forsake your filth and come clean.

The water is there, waiting for you, calling to you from your faithful all powerful hand held water massage shiny chrome 10 function super pro jet stream shower every time you need it, in fact. In truth, the water has been there since before you were born, before there were even faucets, before there were people to use the water, from the foundation of the world. God foreordained that you would be cleansed by the washing of the water, and you have been called to the water for cleansing. You have answered the call and been washed in it’s filth cleansing flow. How can I possibly suggest that you are not going to be always and forever clean when the water has been ordained by God himself to clean you? Such blasphemy!

Yes, you are saved from filth by the water, but you must engage your will to take the shower, every day or as needed to keep yourself clean. You must use your hands to apply the soap. You must implement your scrubbie. You must scrub behind your ears. You must shampoo your head. You may protest, “But that’s works! The water is free! I believe the showered should do works of showering but not in order to be cleansed but because he is already cleansed - Can I be more clear and simple?†OK, can’t argue with that. It’s too inanely imperceptive.

 

[unred typo]

MarkT wrote:
AV is right francis, not so much in his explanations but in the strength of his convictions, not that he knows anything except Christ and him crucified. Must be the Calvinist is somewhat more spiritually minded. The idea that a saved person must necessarily be obedient is correct because the saved person is led by the Spirit. When the Apostles, for instance, saw that the men who came to them had the Spirit, they immediately sent for water to baptise them. The Spirit is the seal of approval. If the man is good soil, then what was planted in him will grow. As long as the foundation is laid, the words of God abide forever, the man will be saved. As for OSAS, I think that's one way of putting it. Tell me. Does your church teach 'losing it'? Strikes me that telling men they can 'lose it' isn't gathering. The danger here is that it will be done to them as they believe.

The good soil is people who listen to Christ’s words and take them in. Not just into their heads, memorizing scriptures to spout at people, but into their lives shown out as deeds of love and obedience. You can be good soil if you keep open to hearing and doing Jesus’ words. You can become hardened through the deceitfulness of riches, the pride of life and pleasures of sin. You can let the devil steal away those words through evil doctrines that deny that the words of Christ are important to us today.

MarkT wrote:
Of course the knowledge that men will fail is given to us as a warning. It is a warning to us that the devil is a roaring lion. He can snatch away what is planted. But I think if the words of God are in the sinner's heart, the sinner will be saved even if only the foundation remains. I think the reason Paul doesn't mention it much is because the idea would be too terrible to contemplate and Paul speaks as he does to believers. Now falling into disbelief has a terrible consequence. But as long as the believer continues to believe, then he will be saved. This is for the endurance of the saints.

Remember the soil in the parable is people. The good soil is people who listen to the words of Christ, understand them and let them grow into their lives, transforming those words into fruitful acts of love, humility, mercy, faith, kindness, etc. If the words of Christ are not taken to heart and done by the person who hears them, the living words of Christ produce no fruit but dry up and whither away. Or if the person hears the words of Christ and has better things to do than care about the poor, the sick, and the less fortunate, they let the devil steal those words away so they can continue with their self-indulgent life without any remorse crimping their style or their pocketbooks.

Jesus said the words he spoke were his spirit and life, not the physical life in his human flesh. ( John 6 ) He gave out those words of life to us. If we take in his words, we will have life in us. Not just hearing them, but doing them. His words are the seed. Taking in his words will produce fruit. What are his words? They’re written in red. They are basically to love one another and forgive as God forgave us. In fact, they are written in blood.

 

[AVBunyan]

Salvation is through faith in God and obedience to His Word.

Salvation is...obedience to His Word = works = hell

 

[MarkT]

Salvation is...obedience to His Word = works = hell

Absolutely not. Obedience is the work of God. Now you're flip flopping. First you say the saved are obedient. Now you say obedience is works is hell. Have you no sense AV? Is obedience the work of the devil? I don't think so.

 

[AVBunyan]

Salvation is...obedience to His Word = works = hell

Absolutely not. Obedience is the work of God. Now you're flip flopping. First you say the saved are obedient. Now you say obedience is works is hell. Have you no sense AV? Is obedience the work of the devil? I don't think so.

Obedience in order to earn one's salvation is a works salvation - this results in a trip to the lake of fire.

 

[MarkT]

Remember the soil in the parable is people. The good soil is people who listen to the words of Christ, understand them and let them grow into their lives, transforming those words into fruitful acts of love, humility, mercy, faith, kindness, etc. If the words of Christ are not taken to heart and done by the person who hears them, the living words of Christ produce no fruit but dry up and whither away. Or if the person hears the words of Christ and has better things to do than care about the poor, the sick, and the less fortunate, they let the devil steal those words away so they can continue with their self-indulgent life without any remorse crimping their style or their pocketbooks.

Jesus said the words he spoke were his spirit and life, not the physical life in his human flesh. ( John 6 ) He gave out those words of life to us. If we take in his words, we will have life in us. Not just hearing them, but doing them. His words are the seed. Taking in his words will produce fruit. What are his words? They’re written in red. They are basically to love one another and forgive as God forgave us. In fact, they are written in blood.

The soil is not people. If the words are the seed, then the soil is the ground that the seed is planted in and you just said the words are taken to heart. So the words are planted in the heart. This is consistent with what Jesus said. In fact he said, 'the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart'. Now, did the hard path choose to be hard? Did the rocky ground choose to be rocky? No. Neither does the good soil choose to be good. If it is not good to begin with, then it must be made good. As any good farmer can tell you, if it is to be good, then it has to be done by the farmer himself. It doesn't get good all by itself. And this was done by God as God declared, 'I will take the stony heart out their flesh and give them a heart of flesh.' Eze. 11:19

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is through faith in God and obedience to His Word.

Salvation is...obedience to His Word = works = hell

You need to read the Bible. Obedience to God's commands are not called "works". Making God a debtor is a work. Jeez, how many times do I have to say that? Isn't Romans 4:4 clear enough for you? :-?

As usual, you build upon sand. First, the KJV. Now, this. Why are you being so stubborn about this? Or is it that you realize you are wrong and don't want to admit that you are being told so by a Catholic using the Bible that you haven't a clue on the message of Paul?

Regards

 

[golfjack]

Salvation is most certainly a free gift from God. There is no way to earn it. When a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. But his faith is credited to him as righteousness. The grace gift flows from God's nature, love, and mercy; this makes possible the believer's faith response to Christ.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

Salvation is most certainly a free gift from God. There is no way to earn it. When a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. But his faith is credited to him as righteousness. The grace gift flows from God's nature, love, and mercy; this makes possible the believer's faith response to Christ. May God bless, Golfjack

Thanks Golfjack

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

You need to read the Bible. Obedience to God's commands are not called "works". Making God a debtor is a work. Jeez, how many times do I have to say that? Isn't Romans 4:4 clear enough for you? :-? Regards

Ok Francis - Let’s talk about this obedience thing that you folks keep saying is required for salvation.

1. What just exactly are we to obey?
a. Just the commandments that Jesus spoke? Mat 19:17; John 14:21; 1 John 3:24 – Are these commandments we are to obey the 10 Commandments? Or , are these general commandments such as: Mat 5:22 - but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Ever called anybody a fool before? BTW – Paul did - 1 Cor 15:36 or Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, - are you perfect in the law?
b. Or just general any command given in the scriptures such as those by Paul – such as: Phil 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. Anybody here overweight? How about - 1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. – Do you do everything for the glory of God? How about the movie you watched last night? What if one fails to obey: Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: - Ever been angry in sin? How about this command - Giving thanks always for all things – Did you give thanks when you lost your job last year? How about - Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, Did you slip lately? Do you obey this 100% of the time? Ya, you can’t fool God. Do you keep the law? According tot Matt. 28:20 and Matt. 23:1-3 you are to keep the OT law.

2. How often does one need to obey?
Are you batting a 100% here on every commandment or does God expect us to just get it 85% of the time? Where is the leeway here - how is this decided or do you just tell me and others. “You just have to obey.†Obey what – how much? Or does God give grace and let you slip here and there?

3. What is the result of missing some of these commandments?
How much do you have to miss before you gone too far and “Lose it�

4. When will you know when you’ve obeyed to the standard God is looking for?
Will you know before you die or will you have to wait till you stand before God at the judgment and then God puts your good obediences in one hand and your lack of obediences in the other and then has Michael the archangel put the results in a spreadsheet and the look at the results?

5. How do you know OSAS (Grace believers) are not keeping the commandments? – whatever they are.

6. Now after you realized you went too far on the lack obedience and you’ve lost it (however you can determine that) what is it that you have to do to get your salvation back?

7. What is your gospel (Good news) to the lost?
Receive Christ ((whatever that means) or something similar.
Keep the commandments…
Don’t fall away…
Repent of your sins….
Ask forgiveness when you do sin for if you miss one God will not allow any unforgiven sin in heaven…
Endure unto the end….
And by the way – you have to wait until you die and stand before God to see if your “utilization†of his grace was good enough.
You call that good news – the sinner can’t really know if he is going to make it or not because he might just blow it!?!?!?!
My what a amnable doctrine the devil invented.

So folks when you tell me I’ve got to be obedient you need to be more specific instead of just saying, “Be obedient or you won’t make itâ€Â.

 

[AVBunyan]

Wrong. I shouldn't be surprised you twist my words, you have no qualms in twisting the Sacred Scriptures...

I am not counting on myself, I am counting on God to move my will; it's not all about me! The Bible clearly tells us, both OT and NT, that we can do nothing good without God's aide. As I said, with you, it is either God does EVERYTHING, or man does EVERYTHING. Fortunately, that is not real Christianity and is not supported by Scriptures.

Ok Francis - waist high again:
Do you believe Christ died for you sins?

A simple yes or no is what I am looking for. I don't need a long explanation - it is not needed for this simple question.

 

[francisdesales]

Wrong. I shouldn't be surprised you twist my words, you have no qualms in twisting the Sacred Scriptures...

I am not counting on myself, I am counting on God to move my will; it's not all about me! The Bible clearly tells us, both OT and NT, that we can do nothing good without God's aide. As I said, with you, it is either God does EVERYTHING, or man does EVERYTHING. Fortunately, that is not real Christianity and is not supported by Scriptures.

Ok Francis - waist high again:
Do you believe Christ died for you sins?

A simple yes or no is what I am looking for. I don't need a long explanation - it is not needed for this simple question.

Of course Christ died for my sins. He died for EVERYONE'S sins. I have already stated that.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Of course Christ died for my sins. He died for EVERYONE'S sins. I have already stated that.Regards

Let's move on - was what Christ did at Calvary sufficient for all your sins?

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

Let's move on - was what Christ did at Calvary sufficient for all your sins?

Yes. It was sufficient for EVERYONE'S sins... ALL mankind. Just as Adam's sins were sufficient to mark ALL of us (excluding Jesus and Mary) with original sin, Christ's redemption offered is sufficient for ALL man. See Romans 5.

So if Christ's alien righteousness covers me, why should I worry about becoming virtuous or NOT disobeying God? Seems a lot of ink was wasted, if God doesn't care about such matters...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

1. What just exactly are we to obey?
a. Just the commandments that Jesus spoke? Mat 19:17; John 14:21; 1 John 3:24 – Are these commandments we are to obey the 10 Commandments?

Just a quick answer, I just saw this and I missed it until now.

Since we are under the Law of Grace, we don't have to perfectly obey God to be accepted and considered righteous in His eyes. God will accept my God-guided actions that are imperfect, just as I would accept my child's half-hearted attempts to wash the car or pick up their rooms. I still love them, even if they do not do it perfectly. Perfect obedience to the Law is ONLY for those who choose to try to hold God as a debtor. Trying to get God to owe a person salvation cannot work unless a man is perfect, both in action and in motive. Not possible. Paul says in Romans that NO ONE can make God owe him anything.

Or , are these general commandments such as: Mat 5:22 - but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Ever called anybody a fool before? BTW – Paul did - 1 Cor 15:36 or Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, - are you perfect in the law?

I believe Jesus is God. If God said that I am IN DANGER of hellfire for calling someone a fool, than I had better ask for forgiveness promptly. Now, since Jesus REALLY isn't your Lord, from your inability to deny that when I have brought it up, I suppose you can ignore His Words, since He is not your King and owe Him nothing.

If you have to ASK "how much should I obey", you are basing your salvation on a works idea. You are saying that IF I obey "x" amount, then God must save me. It doesn't work that way. The Spirit will convict us if we are living in sin. Then, it is left to us to use God's graces to ask for forgiveness and repent and return to His ways. God doesn't force us to repent. You are aware of the history of the Jews, are you not? Does God force them to repent?

If you have to ask how often must I obey, you are missing the whole point of "FAITH WORKING IN LOVE".

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Yes. It was sufficient for EVERYONE'S sins...

Yo;u do not believe Christ's work was sufficient for your sins and I'll show you why.

Do you believe that once one is saved that is they do not obey God the it is sin? Of course you do - it is sin.

I can show you several places where you and others said disobedience or the ins that cause falling away will cause a loss of salvation. So, the Christ's death and shed blood obviously were not sufficient for those sins of disobedience.

You do not believe Christ died for your sins and that what he dis was sufficient for the sins that caused you to lose it Christ's blood was not sufficient for those sins - You do not believe Christ died for all your sins for if you did then the sins of disobedience are covered also - but you do not believe they are covered.

A person who believes the can lose it does not really believe Christ's blood was sufficient for his sins for you have to add your repentance and asking forgiveness - You do this because you think those acts re-activate the blood as if his death and shedding of blood 2,000 years ago was not sufficient to cover all your future sins.

 

[AVBunyan]

Of course Christ died for my sins. He died for EVERYONE'S sins. I have already stated that.Regards

Then why should not everyone go to heaven then if Christ shed his blood for them?

Redemption is in his blood so his blood should redeem all mankind - no one should go to hell.

How can one go to hell if Christ died for his sins?

Are you saying his dying and shedding of blood was not enough? :o