Bible Study Forgiveness?

[Douglas Summers]

Lord, Lord, did I not prophecy in your name?.

Um no, you sent 50,000 to hell and lead 0 to repentance and salvation.

I never thought of it that way, but yes. In fact, Christ said the very same thing about sending converts to hell (Matt. 23:15) (Matt. 23: 13-33)

 

[Corn Pop]

I never thought of it that way, but yes. In fact, Christ said the very same thing about sending converts to hell (Matt. 23:15) (Matt. 23: 13-33)

How are you feeling today church. Praise the Lord. I know a man, a poor man, he gave all his money to the church and the Lord blessed him, hellaluya. Praise the Lord. I know this other man, he was sick and then was healed. Praise the Lord. You feeling good today.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'm not saying it was or was not, I'm talking about the character of our action. You have missed the point, It is a Spiritual matter. I do not have to make a case because the Scriptures define it. (1 Corinthians Chapter 12) Anything we do as the body of Christ, has to be by "charity" , or else it is unprofitable. (does not anyone understand this?) Prayer, forgiveness, supplication, intervention, fellowship, teaching, helping and what ever is good is unprofitable, unless it is driven by the charitable heart that praises God by the rebirth and Godly nature that should drive us. Knowing the power of God.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I have more time to reply, so I'd like to give a better answer. I get what you've said about giving with the right spirit. I think a verse has said to give generously, not out of obligation. But sometimes to have the right heart about a matter takes time and practice. It also helps to have the right attitude too, but that sometimes comes with time and experience, which is earned with practice. So to learn any spiritual and practical gift, sometimes we just have to descide to do it and muddy through the process of really doing it. If the pastor has learned to forgive at such a hard level of pain that's great. If he's doing the process of forgiving because Jesus taught us to forgive and the importance of it, I'd still count that as a win in my opinion. Being right because of trying to uphold a duty is still a step in the right direction. Like a child learning right from wrong by following the rules of a parent, even though they feel other emotions that could lead to a tantrum.

 

[smaller]

There have been a couple of good posts/observations in this thread.

Jesus on His Cross, forgiving those men. Why? Because they were blinded "in the flesh" by the god of this world, Satin, as Douglas proposed. But yes, blinded by Satan in the flesh. That is "why" they knew not what they did. The same effect transpired in the stoning of Stephen.

Neither Jesus nor Stephen, via the Holy Spirit, were condemning the blinded. But, that will not exonerate the anti-spiritual perp, Satan, that operates in the flesh. And in both cases, of Jesus and of Stephen, the Speaking and Actions of the HOLY SPIRIT of God does INFLAME the adversaries, Satan and his messengers. You see it was THEM in MAN who put Jesus on His Cross and Stephen to stoning. Any of us, in speaking truthfully today can and will experience the revealing of the adversary in the hearts of man. I see it quite often.

So, we see then forgiveness to the blinded. Yet damnation to the anti-Christ spirit.

This is at the heart of forgiveness to the BLINDED, yet JUDGMENT remains for the adversary.

There are two parties present in the equations. Once seen, then things clear up considerably in the equations.

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. It is not forgiven, but contrary. IN seeing WHY, because of the working of the adversary in the flesh, we will also see the non-forgiveness quotient.

The captive of sinful flesh and it's works are forgiven. The adversary operating therein, in the flesh can't be forgiven, nor will that ever happen.

To forgive blinded captives is only to forgive them in their blindness, NOT their actions and NOT the adversary.

We forgive them because they are blinded captives of Satan, and nothing more than that. And the only "reason" we do that is in HOPE that they will come out and apart from that captivity of Satan in their flesh and it's sinning godless actions.

Sound judgment however remains in these equations.

And, when the flesh of any persons ungodly fleshly sin, such as in killing, that working getting out of hand, they, the blinded captive, may very well pay the penalty of termination of their captive flesh [death], or it's continual internment, by the forces of overlords that God has set on this earth to constrain and control these issues.

I personally reject any christian notion that extends forgiveness to the "whole" equation. That is just the sight of a spiritual, pardon my expression, pansy.

 

[smaller]

I never thought of it that way, but yes. In fact, Christ said the very same thing about sending converts to hell (Matt. 23:15) (Matt. 23: 13-33)

IF you saw these men as captives in their flesh, you would understand "how" they got that way. Mark 4:15 points directly to the entrance of Satan into the hearts of people, where the Word is sown. Who then is present in these equations? Just man? No. There is the man and the captor in his own flesh. It is only the captor who is a lying hypocrite, and can not speak the truth of their internal captivity in the fleshly carnal mind.

Jesus pointed directly to the godless perps in the flesh of these men in John 8:44.

In the equations of scripture there are ALWAYS two separate and distinct parties to see. To see only one party is to be blinded by and to, the other.

Jesus came to show us this internal captivity by our adversary in the flesh, and to condemn same in all his works and ways.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

IF you saw these men as captives in their flesh, you would understand "how" they got that way. Mark 4:15 points directly to the entrance of Satan into the hearts of people, where the Word is sown. Who then is present in these equations? Just man? No. There is the man and the captor in his own flesh. It is only the captor who is a lying hypocrite, and can not speak the truth of their internal captivity in the fleshly carnal mind.

Jesus pointed directly to the godless perps in the flesh of these men in John 8:44.

In the equations of scripture there are ALWAYS two separate and distinct parties to see. To see only one party is to be blinded by and to, the other.

Jesus came to show us this internal captivity by our adversary in the flesh, and to condemn same in all his works and ways.

"Forgive us Lord, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us," and "let vengeance be the Lord's," are two qualities I see in the equation too though Smaller. But beyond forgiveness is the element of love. If a person sees another trapped in their own sins, even engrossed in them, forgiving the person is not helping them. To really act in love forgiving is only one element, helping them correct it, or leave them and let God's consquences in the world correct them might be the best route while striving to let go of the harms they've done to a person.

That said, I really don't think forgiveness is weak attribute, a spiritual pansy. I think it's true a phrase I've heard. "Forgiveness is easy, until you actually have something to forgive." Doing nothing whether to correct, bring justice, or to forgive, shows a lack of strength, or a weak willingness to act on things that are confrontational. That is it's own battle too.

 

[smaller]

Forgiveness 70x7 to a brother in Christ, not the devil and his crew.

And above is one of the posts that was somewhat accurate.

The other accurate sight was from our new poster [Gdemoss] in post #6, his post #3.

 

[smaller]

"Forgive us Lord, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us," and "let vengeance be the Lord's," are two qualities I see in the equation too though Smaller. But beyond forgiveness is the element of love. If a person sees another trapped in their own sins, even engrossed in them, forgiving the person is not helping them. To really act in love forgiving is only one element, helping them correct it, or leave them and let God's consquences in the world correct them might be the best route while striving to let go of the harms they've done to a person.

This brings to question a somewhat "huge" rift in understandings. I would observe that "most" christians believe that if they are "acting right" that this brings their flesh into a position where it is not contrary to the Spirit. And, that sight, I reject.

We act "right" to show our dominion over sin in the flesh (and our "adversary" who operates therein), which remains contrary to the Spirit, regardless of such external acting.

It is a showing of control OVER and dominion OVER the adversary, not elimination of reality of sin in the flesh OR bringing that which is contrary/in contention with the Spirit, INTO the things of God in Christ. That can't happen.

There is a big big difference, which Paul notes as this:

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We do in this understand that it is always there to reign over. This is the essence of understanding the cross, to the understanding that our flesh is dead in the sight of God in Christ, because of sin therein. That IS the message of the Cross.

There is then a two fold state. One of death in the flesh, and one of Life in The Spirit of Christ, noted again by Paul, here:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

In other words, the latter is hidden currently in the former.

We are to consider our flesh dead, for very good Spiritual Reasons. Because of sin. Paul is clear that as it pertains to sin, ours is no better than anyone else's, including that of an actual murderer. Romans 3:9 addresses this, asking the question, "are we better?" Paul's answer? No! ALL are in fact under sin in their own flesh, equally. Again shown in Gal. 3:22, scriptures conclusion regarding this. No action of legality is going to "save or spare" the flesh in which dwells sin.

That said, I really don't think forgiveness is weak attribute, a spiritual pansy.

Apart from judgment against sin, it is a weak sight.

We do bear the REPROACH (disapproval/disappointment) of Christ in our flesh, and hence, understanding the reasons for it's death-> our respective crosses.

It is the disapproving Eye of Him that points us to our own cross.

 

[smaller]

If any here have witnessed Christ to murderer's (I have) they are actually easy to witness to, because in retrospect they will usually always see that they were pawned by the evil in their own hearts.

The job of the witness of Christ is to drive the HARD FIXED WEDGE between the parties, the adversary and the slave who was pawned by same in their flesh/carnal minds.

When they see their adversary, they are usually deeply repelled. They just didn't know before what the problem really IS. They got gamed, and lost.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Mark 11:25
When you stand praying "Forgive" if you have " Ought" against ANY - so your Father which is in Heaven - "MAY" forgive you your trespasses......

It is very clear here that the word Any in this scripture means just that - Any ought - every ought - no matter who
Another Key point in this scripture is - this is not a Choice for us for it is a COMMAND of God. And it pleases God as well.

There can be no excuses such as if you only knew what they did to me - does not matter- for God does and He still said Forgive.
You can not say - well one day I might or this is going to take a very long time - NO! You can not stand there praying for a very long time - so this again says it is a right now Command.

Walking in Love is a must - our Faith depends on it.
Un-forgiveness will bind up your prayer life and bring your faith to a crawl (results you are looking for)

Offences - Once a person becomes offended - they stepped over into unforgiveness.
Learn to walk in Love and those offences no matter what they are will have a hard time sticking on you and if one does get through it will leave faster then it got there.

Walking in Love and Forgiveness does not mean you lost out on the right to see some one prosecuted to the fullness of the law.
There is a huge difference from walking in anger and hate and unforgiveness compared to walking in Love and forgiveness.

A soldier in the military is also required to walk in Love towards the enemy. Now when they do this and are called on to be the judgment - then they are NOT held accountable for this death - However the same soldier gets out there in hate towards that enemy and they get them selves in an area where God can not protect them as much and well you get the idea. Just thought I would add this to help understand the importance of forgiveness and love.

Have a very blessed and joyful week end
James W

 

[Douglas Summers]

Sorry to bring this up again, but I have more time to reply, so I'd like to give a better answer. I get what you've said about giving with the right spirit. I think a verse has said to give generously, not out of obligation. But sometimes to have the right heart about a matter takes time and practice. It also helps to have the right attitude too, but that sometimes comes with time and experience, which is earned with practice. So to learn any spiritual and practical gift, sometimes we just have to descide to do it and muddy through the process of really doing it. If the pastor has learned to forgive at such a hard level of pain that's great. If he's doing the process of forgiving because Jesus taught us to forgive and the importance of it, I'd still count that as a win in my opinion. Being right because of trying to uphold a duty is still a step in the right direction. Like a child learning right from wrong by following the rules of a parent, even though they feel other emotions that could lead to a tantrum.

Hi Soon, Every born again believer, from the most illustrious saint to the weakest most fallible saint have the same standing before God . Faith in God's work on the cross alone, is the only requirement. That faith makes us all safe in Christ. But our state is another matter. We are not all mature as instantly as we are safe. We mature as we grow in Grace (not growing into grace) but growing in grace that we have already received. (maturing) So yes sometimes it takes man time to grow and (practice) experience grace.. They are called babes in Christ.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Hi Soon, Every born again believer, from the most illustrious saint to the weakest most fallible saint have the same standing before God . Faith in God's work on the cross alone, is the only requirement. That faith makes us all safe in Christ. But our state is another matter. We are not all mature as instantly as we are safe. We mature as we grow in Grace (not growing into grace) but growing in grace that we have already received. (maturing) So yes sometimes it takes man time to grow and (practice) experience grace.. They are called babes in Christ.

Then with that regard, how can a person be against someone forgiving another. Whether it's out of maturity in faith, or in striving to follow God. Whether babe or mature, it is still good to follow The teachings of Jesus.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Then with that regard, how can a person be against someone forgiving another. Whether it's out of maturity in faith, or in striving to follow God. Whether babe or mature, it is still good to follow The teachings of Jesus.

Forgiveness is a command for all believers and not a choice

 

[Douglas Summers]

Then with that regard, how can a person be against someone forgiving another. Whether it's out of maturity in faith, or in striving to follow God. Whether babe or mature, it is still good to follow The teachings of Jesus.

I'am not against a person forgiving, (only God knows the true heart) If a man says he forgives because he thinks it is his duty. He is not really forgiving in his heart, but as a work of the flesh. Forgiveness is not the first of the commands. There are only two (2) commandments in the NT Church given by the Lord....Only two. Without these two commandments, everything else one does is vain or vanity. Unless a man can see himself for what he has become, he will never know or see God in His Glory. The Lord did not call out His body, or build the temple for habitation of the Spirit out of duty or vanity, but because of who He is. You must be born again.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'am not against a person forgiving, (only God knows the true heart) If a man says he forgives because he thinks it is his duty. He is not really forgiving in his heart, but as a work of the flesh.

I can't help but disagree with you on this one Douglas. If a person forgives or strives to forgive out of a trueness of their heart, or a duty in one form or another, they can be just as real or just as fickle as each other. Sometimes it's not fully forgiven, but that's probabley because their still working it out into themselves. And based on that there's the fickle nature of the heart, changing one's mind on the forgiveness, or the strong will of the mind avoiding the pitfalls of their forgiveness and the truth of whether they are forgiven or not. I don't think we should judge who or how a person really forgives any more then we can judge if a person is a real Christian or not. Does that sound reasonable?

Forgiveness is not the first of the commands. There are only two (2) commandments in the NT Church given by the Lord....Only two. Without these two commandments, everything else one does is vain or vanity. Unless a man can see himself for what he has become, he will never know or see God in His Glory. The Lord did not call out His body, or build the temple for habitation of the Spirit out of duty or vanity, but because of who He is. You must be born again.

The two commands I know from Jesus that come to mind are ones that he says are the most important, because from these all other laws stem from. Love your neighbor as your self, and love the LORD with all your heart. Not that any of the other laws aren't important, or that the other laws don't support these two laws.

On the other hand though, I don't think Jesus only gave two commands. Nor do I think that focusing on those two automatically means a person follows the others on their own.

That said I could be jumping the gun. You said Jesus only gave two commandments, and I assumed it was these two. If you meant different commandments, such as some from the sermon on the mount, or ones derived from parables, or any other, let me know.

 

[reba]

Some times we act first out of duty and the 'spirit' follows.. Down the lines of man i DO NOT want to wash those dishes.. NO I dont want to.. well it is my turn why is there always more mess when it is my turn... ok ok i will do them but i wont be happy about it.. .. Wow this miss cleaned up quicker then i thought.. so i will spend a bit extra time on the stove.. ,, I hear the radio that is a cool song (singing along)

 

[Douglas Summers]

I can't help but disagree with you on this one Douglas. If a person forgives or strives to forgive out of a trueness of their heart, or a duty in one form or another, they can be just as real or just as fickle as each other. Sometimes it's not fully forgiven, but that's probabley because their still working it out into themselves. And based on that there's the fickle nature of the heart, changing one's mind on the forgiveness, or the strong will of the mind avoiding the pitfalls of their forgiveness and the truth of whether they are forgiven or not. I don't think we should judge who or how a person really forgives any more then we can judge if a person is a real Christian or not. Does that sound reasonable?



The two commands I know from Jesus that come to mind are ones that he says are the most important, because from these all other laws stem from. Love your neighbor as your self, and love the LORD with all your heart. Not that any of the other laws aren't important, or that the other laws don't support these two laws.

On the other hand though, I don't think Jesus only gave two commands. Nor do I think that focusing on those two automatically means a person follows the others on their own.

That said I could be jumping the gun. You said Jesus only gave two commandments, and I assumed it was these two. If you meant different commandments, such as some from the sermon on the mount, or ones derived from parables, or any other, let me know.

Soon, it is Spiritual, it is not natural. You must be born again. Really! Even if you don't understand, hold on to what you do have.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Soon, it is Spiritual, it is not natural. You must be born again. Really! Even if you don't understand, hold on to what you do have.

I think we're straying away from the topic a bit, so for now I think the best thing is to understand that you and I have gleaned a different understanding in the scriptures regarding the matter of forgiveness. And perhaps just agree to not agree at this time.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I think we're straying away from the topic a bit, so for now I think the best thing is to understand that you and I have gleaned a different understanding in the scriptures regarding the matter of forgiveness. And perhaps just agree to not agree at this time.

OK, but we should never stay away or stray from the Truth. It should be our life's endeavor to know our Lord and His will.

 

[smaller]

We are inevitably led to try to see forgiveness as an all or nothing deal.

In practical terms it will always lead to frustrations. There is a sound reason to direct forgiveness and an equally sound reason to abide within the judgment that God also allows.

So, in practical terms, let's look at our own condition prior to our own belief in Christ, and SEE that there is a two fold state of present life. This state of present being is known in several ways by several terms in the scriptures. And I've tried, quite often, to point these out here without much success. There are scriptural reasons WHY this is not seen or accepted. That resistance is also scheduled by God Himself, to direct our sights properly OR to inflame the other party. It's very predictable, according to the patterns set forth by the scriptures.

Here then was our state of being prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In the above example, for which there are many other scriptural examples, God in Christ is NOT seeking and NOT forgiving the spirit of disobedience. And this "spirit" is differentiated from the PERSON above. It is notable that this is directed to "ye" meaning plural or multiple. Ye idicates "more than one party."

So, ye, meaning what most see as "just me" wasn't/isn't just me. It was "me" AND "the spirit of disobedience."

God has no intentions whatsoever of "forgiving" the spirit of disobedience. It's just not going to happen. Forgiveness in the scriptural quotients is only to the person, the captive, and NOT to the spirit of disobedience.

It is an important distinction in sights. We can not logically just heap forgiveness to the entire quotient. It's not possible. It's not what God in Christ does. And it's not practical exactly for that reason. The "sight" and "conveyance" must therefore be divided/split accurately in order to maintain sound judgments.

This same practice is shown throughout the scriptures. By Jesus toward those men who nailed Him to His Cross for example were forgiven by Jesus. The spirit of disobedience that blinded and made those men captives however will not be recipients of forgiveness.

Same with the stoning of Stephen. Stephen saw exactly as Jesus saw those men who stoned him. They were captives of the spirit of disobedience. This is how Stephen saw those men who killed him. As a "ye," the man, and the spirit of disobedience.

The spirit of disobedience cannot be forgiven. It's not possible, never was possible.

We are called out to walk apart from that spirit of disobedience. This is in fact the "call" of the Gospel. We are to recognize that sin is of the devil, and are (or should be anyway) led NOT to be his captive slave, to sin in the flesh, lest that captivity overtake our flesh and control US.

And that is exactly what happens with those we are to forgive. We understand that they do the things they need forgiveness for are caused by their captivity in the flesh/mind to the spirit of disobedience.

The captive is forgiven. The captor, not.

In this quotient of forgiveness there are two sights to be had. Forgiveness and the opposite. Sound judgments against the captor, the spirit of disobedience. To fall one way or the other is a basic scriptural train-wreck of confusions because BOTH sights must apply.

I keep this sight fixed in mind when I view anyone. Even myself.

This same sight is demanded by God, even in the O.T. Let's observe again, what happens in the below. It is the same as I've described above.

Numbers 14:18
The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

The foundation of Mercy itself is predicated on the need for same, that is brought about by the state of captivity to the spirit of disobedience in the flesh.

And, though it can be pointed out, even in bold and contrasted colors, believers themselves still can't see this distinction. And this too is by GOD working against the spirit of captivity and disobedience.