Forgiveness

[KevinK]

Yes God is a lot smarter than any of us. Good job he is. What do you mean by "loophole"

The "loophole" is Christians continuing to sin, or failing to repent and forgive because they have already been saved at the Cross. I don't believe God would allow such a thing.

 

[Cygnus]

That might be helpful. Can you elaborate?

Man is typically trying to get into heaven by his own means...works...or a mixture of Jesus and works.
But God says....REPENT....believe on my Son, that's the only way. Turn from your own means of salvation. That's the first meaning.
The second meaning is living out life and the Holy Spirit brings something up to your attention. Perhaps the sin of XYZ and. You realize it's sin and repent and stop doing the sin of XYZ. It falls more in line with sanctification.

 

[Cygnus]

The "loophole" is Christians continuing to sin, or failing to repent and forgive because they have already been saved at the Cross. I don't believe God would allow such a thing.

Soooooooooooooo, let me get this straight.....you believe after you're saved you can be good enough that you will never sin?

 

[KevinK]

Man is typically trying to get into heaven by his own means...works...or a mixture of Jesus and works.
But God says....REPENT....believe on my Son, that's the only way. Turn from your own means of salvation. That's the first meaning.
The second meaning is living out life and the Holy Spirit brings something up to your attention. Perhaps the sin of XYZ and. You realize it's sin and repent and stop doing the sin of XYZ. It falls more in line with sanctification.

OK, that makes sense. Is there Scripture on this subject?

 

[Wrg1405]

The person who drove me into a tree when I was 18 and ruined the rest of my life refuses to face what he did or apologize. I have already told God that I have forgiven him, even as I drop a 3x dose of addictive pain medication. If I don't forgive him (my f-in' best friend!), how can God forgive me my sins?

Oh my friend. As you take your dose of medication I do pray for your healing, it's not a big prayer just a one liner really. Jesus I do pray for the healing of KevinK, you are a healer I pray he sleeps well tonight.

I won't push you any further other than to say if you don't forgive your f-in best friend I think we are all truly forgiven our sins when we place faith in Jesus and seek to follow him.

Love to my brother KevinK

 

[KevinK]

Soooooooooooooo, let me get this straight.....you believe after you're saved you can be good enough that you will never sin?

No, of course not. We should genuinely try to stop sinning, even knowing that we can never match God's standard of perfect sinlessness (is that a word?). Maybe that sounds like a calculus problem, but I don't know how else to express it. Like I said, I don't know all the answers.

 

[KevinK]

Oh my friend. As you take your dose of medication I do pray for your healing, it's not a big prayer just a one liner really. Jesus I do pray for the healing of KevinK, you are a healer I pray he sleeps well tonight.

I won't push you any further other than to say if you don't forgive your f-in best friend I think we are all truly forgiven our sins when we place faith in Jesus and seek to follow him.

Love to my brother KevinK

Well, thank you!

 

[Wrg1405]

I'm missing your meaning here. Would you be able to repost this last question separately? And slow down between questions would be really helpful, too, or I might have to pull a Yoda "no more will I teach you today" deal...lol.[/QUOTE]

Do you have big ears, a round green face and bald head?

I think the point I'm trying to make is that Jesus said the only work that God wants is to beleive in him. The thief on the cross believed and was saved. He had no chance to confess his sin but only a chance to confess his belief in him. For Jesus that was enough for the thief.

 

[Malachi]

I think the point I'm trying to make is that Jesus said the only work that God wants is to believe in him.

Believing is not really a work, but it was presented metaphorically as a work to those who believed that works produce salvation. Believing is simply trusting God and putting faith in the Person and finished work of Christ.

The thief on the cross believed and was saved. He had no chance to confess his sin but only a chance to confess his belief in him. For Jesus that was enough for the thief.

It would be a mistake to base doctrine on what happened to the thief on the Cross. Yes, he believed and he was saved, but he repented also. He began by mocking Christ. He finished by believing that Christ is the Divine King who has a Kingdom into which he wished to enter.

Repentance is essential for salvation, and confession of sins, as well as restitution as a part of repentance.

 

[KevinK]

I'm missing your meaning here. Would you be able to repost this last question separately? And slow down between questions would be really helpful, too, or I might have to pull a Yoda "no more will I teach you today" deal...lol.

Do you have big ears, a round green face and bald head?

I do today.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that Jesus said the only work that God wants is to beleive in him. The thief on the cross believed and was saved. He had no chance to confess his sin but only a chance to confess his belief in him. For Jesus that was enough for the thief.

I like Malachi's answer here. Let's go with that.

 

[Eugene]

It does worry me and make me sad. Unless I have repented of my sins before I die then I'm going to hell.
That being the case then further confusion arises.

Dear Brother Wrg1405, as a believer you are seen by our Father as being in Christ and Him judged in your place. When you believed on Jesus you overcame the world.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!!!!
1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

When you believed you were confirmed to be in the Book of life which God saw you in before the foundation of the world versus those of Rev 13:8 . . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I wrote the following pamphlet I hope will encourage you in the faith we can have in the finished work of Christ as pertaining to our eternal destiny who believe.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

 

[Wrg1405]

Dear Brother Wrg1405, as a believer you are seen by our Father as being in Christ and Him judged in your place. When you believed on Jesus you overcame the world.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!!!!
1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

When you believed you were confirmed to be in the Book of life which God saw you in before the foundation of the world versus those of Rev 13:8 . . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I wrote the following pamphlet I hope will encourage you in the faith we can have in the finished work of Christ as pertaining to our eternal destiny who believe.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

Hi Eugene

I didn't phrase my comment above very well. I meant to say that it makes me sad and causes people worry when people say that if we have not confessed a particular sin then we spend eternity in hell. All it does is put a cloud over someone who will probably spend their life worrying whether they have forgotten something and where they will spend eternity. I look forward to reading your pamphlet and hopefully use it as I know of some who struggle here.

 

[AbbeyJoy]

Hi wrg, I had that problem too, when that person died I felt like I killed her... I talk to someone who was her mom and told her how I wish I could forgive her and she told me I was forgiven and just know if I asked God for forgiveness and can't seem to forgive the other person because she's gone I know I can turn to her mom or someone close to her. God Knows my heart and the mom said she done her part and just waits for Me to speak in forgiveness. I'm sure whatever it is God Knows your heart. I would suggest talk to that person's family member or someone real close.

 

[Wrg1405]

Hi wrg, I had that problem too, when that person died I felt like I killed her... I talk to someone who was her mom and told her how I wish I could forgive her and she told me I was forgiven and just know if I asked God for forgiveness and can't seem to forgive the other person because she's gone I know I can turn to her mom or someone close to her. God Knows my heart and the mom said she done her part and just waits for Me to speak in forgiveness. I'm sure whatever it is God Knows your heart. I would suggest talk to that person's family member or someone real close.

Hi AbbeyJoy

Thanks for your response. I have already forgiven this person whilst they were alive. I think what I'm trying to figure out is whether I should have said sorry to God for not forgiving in the first place and if I died before I forgave what consequences other than temporal would there be.

 

[GodsGrace]

We know that forgiveness is fundamental to the Gospel and also as an out working in our lives for those of us who are Christ followers.

I do have a couple of questions which follow the next 3 paragraphs. They are for reference to my situation.
I have added them as it may help someone who is in the same situation as I was. Sorry if it detracts from the 2 questions I ask at the end.

For 26 years I refused to forgive someone (testimony I'm sure a shared in a previous post).
No matter how many times I was told by people who new my situation that I needed to forgive I would not. I must admit that because I would not forgive it caused me no end of issues from emotional to psychological and spiritual problems. About 4 years ago (Up till then I stopped going to church for 15 years) I decided to go and see the pastor of my church. He suggested I do the Freedom in Christ and gavw me some material. Part of it was to do with forgiveness. So I knew my situation would come up but I resolved I wouldn't let it.

Before I did Freedom in Christ I came before God one day and he bought it up. Despite my initial refusal he persuaded me because he made me realise he would help me, heal me and be with me. In fact it was like he took a baseball bat to my mind and had to batter it in a sense. So I yielded and God was true to his word. It was at that point that God started to do a deeper work in my life mainly to do with acceptance as a child of his.

I do thank God though because I was able to be because the person I refused to forgive died not long after I had forgiven him and I was able to be at his side on his deathbed. He died after I had forgiven him (I never told him that as I didn't think it was right) and I sorted out his worldly affairs.

My question is that I never said sorry to God that I carried that unforgivness attitude for so long so should I have said sorry?

To me it became apparent that even with such an attitude God seemed to be waiting for the right time to deal with this situation in my life even though at the time, I thought I wouldn't deal with it. Some say and have told me that if I did not forgive then God would not forgive me. Do you think that is true?

Wrg,
I just skimmed. The answers have been interesting.

I go with Eugene in post no. 31.

What are we trusting Jesus for anyway, if not for forgiveness?
He said that there is only ONE sin that cannot be forgiven...
Mathew 12:31

And that would be the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
ALL other sins are forgiven.

So why Matthew 6:15?
Some will say that if we don't forgive, then we won't be forgiven.
How can this be? You asked the perfect question: If you had died after not forgiving someone, would you have gone to hell? Does God send us to hell for one sin? Does that sound like a just God?
1 John 1:9
If He does, then we are depending on ourselves and our good works to save us and not on Jesus. Jesus is to be our covering - God is to see His Son and not us - none of us deserves heaven, only Jesus can get us there.

So, Matthew 6:15
Jesus is not speaking about forgiving one person because they did harm to you. He's speaking about a person who makes a habit of not forgiving anyone. He's speaking about vindictive people, people who hold grudges, people who make unforgiveness a part of their lives. If this does not represent you, then it is not for you. I'd say that a person who has God in their heart cannot be compared to the one I just described unless they are a new Christian or a mal-informed Christian.

If I cannot forgive someone, I ask God's forgiveness for this. I pray for them. I determine to forgive them at some point. I am not vindictive or mean toward them. Also, I'd like to say that forgiveness, like faith, is not a feeling. I may still resent the person or be unhappy to see them, but in my WILL I intend to forgive them, and one day the bad feelings will go away too.

If you are a forgiving person but are unable to forgive someone, God will surely forgive you.

And as to confessing -- God KNOWS if we would have confessed or not before dying. We are firmly held in the hands of our Lord, precisely so we wouldn't have such questions and so that we could feel secure in His hands.
Hebrews 7:25

Wondering

 

[Wrg1405]

Wrg,
I just skimmed. The answers have been interesting.

I go with Eugene in post no. 31.

What are we trusting Jesus for anyway, if not for forgiveness?
He said that there is only ONE sin that cannot be forgiven...
Mathew 12:31

And that would be the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
ALL other sins are forgiven.

So why Mathew 6:15?
Some will say that if we don't forgive, then we won't be forgiven.
How can this be? You asked the perfect question: If you had died after not forgiving someone, would you have gone to hell? Does God send us to hell for one sin? Does that sound like a just God?
1 John 1:9
If He does, then we are depending on ourselves and our good works to save us and not on Jesus. Jesus is to be our covering - God is to see His Son and not us - none of us deserves heaven, only Jesus can get us there.

So, Mathew 6:15
Jesus is not speaking about forgiving one person because they did harm to you. He's speaking about a person who makes a habit of not forgiving anyone. He's speaking about vindictive people, people who hold grudges, people who make unforgiveness a part of their lives. If this does not represent you, then it is not for you. I'd say that a person who has God in their heart cannot be compared to the one I just described unless they are a new Christian or a mal-informed Christian.

If I cannot forgive someone, I ask God's forgiveness for this. I pray for them. I determine to forgive them at some point. I am not vindictive or mean toward them. Also, I'd like to say that forgiveness, like faith, is not a feeling. I may still resent the person or be unhappy to see them, but in my WILL I intend to forgive them, and one day the bad feelings will go away too.

If you are a forgiving person but are unable to forgive someone, God will surely forgive you.

And as to confessing -- God KNOWS if we would have confessed or not before dying. We are firmly held in the hands of our Lord, precisely so we wouldn't have such questions and so that we could feel secure in His hands.
Hebrews 7:25

Wondering

Amen and excellent answer. Thank you

 

[Cygnus]

OK, that makes sense. Is there Scripture on this subject?

Yes, but I'm currently not in a spot where I can dig it out. Some of it is inferred. For example if repent always means turning from ALL of your sins....we have a problem.

 

[Wrg1405]

It would be a mistake to base doctrine on what happened to the thief on the Cross. Yes, he believed and he was saved, but he repented also. He began by mocking Christ. He finished by believing that Christ is the Divine King who has a Kingdom into which he wished to enter.

Repentance is essential for salvation, and confession of sins, as well as restitution as a part of repentance.

Luke 23:42-43
Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Can you explain to me where/what repentance is in the above verses, can you explain to me where/what the confession is, can you explain to me and reconcile your comment in terms of restitution. Please define repentance.

The only thing he confessed was his belief in Jesus. No record of him saying "I robbed someone please forgive me, I beat someone up please forgive me etc.

Before his crucifixion Jesus said he must go back to the Father do the Holy Spirit could come to convict the world of its sin and that sin is unbelief in him. The thief did that before Jesus went back to the Father and Jesus assured him he was saved.

"It would be a mistake to base doctrine on what happened to the thief on the cross"

Chruch doctrine has already been established. We are saved by faith alone, not by works. True faith in Jesus saves and that should follow through and produce fruit. As we learn more about God then we walk more.

 

[Malachi]

Can you explain to me where/what repentance is in the above verses, can you explain to me where/what the confession is, can you explain to me and reconcile your comment in terms of restitution. Please define repentance.

BOTH THIEVES MOCKED CHRIST AT FIRST
He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. (Matthew 27:42-44).

ONE THIEF BEGAN TO FEAR GOD AND REPENTED
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (Luke 23:39-41).

ONE THIEF SAW THAT HE WAS A SINNER JUSTLY CONDEMNED
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: (Luke 23:39-41).

ONE THIEF RECOGNIZED THAT JESUS WAS WITHOUT SIN
but this man hath done nothing amiss. (Luke 23:39-41).

ONE THIEF RECOGNIZED JESUS AS GOD
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, (Luke 23:42-43).

ONE THIEF BELIEVED THAT JESUS HAS GOD'S KINGDOM
remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (Luke 23:42-43).

ONE THIEF WAS SAVED BY GRACE
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:42-43)

 

[Malachi]

We are saved by faith alone, not by works.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21).
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30).