Forum Poll

[FreeGrace]

To believe is to obey.

OK. How many of the commandments do you keep all the time?

If the answer is "none of them all the time, but some of them most of the time", then you've just condemned yourself.

If the answer is "all of them all the time", well, we all know what that means. Just another sin. Called lying.

To believe is to TRUST fully in the work of Christ. It is to REJECT one's own work.

 

[LovethroughDove]

OK. How many of the commandments do you keep all the time?

If the answer is "none of them all the time, but some of them most of the time", then you've just condemned yourself.

If the answer is "all of them all the time", well, we all know what that means. Just another sin. Called lying.

To believe is to TRUST fully in the work of Christ. It is to REJECT one's own work.

True, and the Christ is Holy.......so therefore we will look like him

1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

True holiness comes from the Spirit that born again believers have been given.

 

[chessman]

The Early Church Fathers.
There was the Apostles, the apologists, and the Early Church Father's...pre Nicene.
From after Jesus died to about 350 ad.

Matthew 18:2 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

2 And having summoned a child, He stood him[a] in the middle of them,​

RCC and OC traditions both claim this child (at that time) was St. Ignatius (an ECF later in his life).

 

[chessman]

Jesus said it's impossible for rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven . Not with difficulty but IMPOSSIBLE. I believe the reason being verse Mathew 6:24

Not in this verse He didn’t.

Matthew 19:23 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you that a rich one will enter with-difficulty into the kingdom of the heavens.

In this verse does Jesus say a rich one will enter the kingdom, Yes or No?

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 18:2 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

2 And having summoned a child, He stood him[a] in the middle of them,​

RCC and OC traditions both claim this child (at that time) was St. Ignatius (an ECF later in his life).

This is tradition. It might be based on fact. But I know for sure that Ignatius of Antioch studied with John the apostle. I see no reason not to trust what he says. Thanks for posting.

 

[chessman]

This is tradition.

Yep. I Just learned that today. Very interesting, to me anyway.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, let us think about it.

Jesus was pointing out that the man wasn't keeping all the commandments. And only keeping most of them isn't good enough. So the man wasn't ready to hear "believe on Me". He needed to know WHY he needed to put his trust in the Messiah.

As it was, he thought he was good enough to enter heaven. But Jesus showed him just how wrong he was. And, what was the result?

v.22 - When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

There it is. He found out that he wasn't perfect. Not by a long shot.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Many of us have things that are placed as priorities in our lives over and above God. The rich ruler was relying on self(his following'most' of the law.) And money was his priority.(He didn't have to give it all away. He needed to make his money his slave rather than being a slave to his money.)

I liked your "pre-evangelizing" statement. We need to see through these road blocks and get to a humble state.


James 2:10~~New American Standard Bible
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

John 6:40~~
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep. I Just learned that today. Very interesting, to me anyway.

What's interesting is that the early church did not have a concept of being saved the way we do today.
They believed in salvation but by following the teachings of Jesus and obeying His commandments.
John 14:15
Today some churches teach that repentance is not even necessary.
Some of today's concepts would have been foreign ideas to those who came immediately after the Ascension.

 

[chessman]

I see no reason not to trust what he says.

If it matches with Scripture, I agree.

But he was human just like the rest of us.

I also learned the other day that Justin Martyr never even read any of Paul’s writings. He didn’t have access to them (being so early) evidently and only had copies of the Gospels (he called them “memoirs of the apostles”) from which to do his Theological studies.

Ireneaus is my fav. He seems like he was someone with a good head on his shoulders to me. Pretty straightforward.

 

[GodsGrace]

If it matches with Scripture, I agree.

But he was human just like the rest of us.

I also learned the other day that Justin Martyr never even read any of Paul’s writings. He didn’t have access to them (being so early) evidently and only had copies of the Gospels (he called them “memoirs of the apostles”) from which to do his Theological studies.

Ireneaus is my fav. He seems like he was someone with a good head on his shoulders to me. Pretty straightforward.

What little of theirs I've read matches with scripture.
Although Paul developed the theology for Christianity, I'd have to say that there is no discrepancy between what he teaches and what Jesus taught. To listen to some, there would seem to be. But I believe it's just because Paul covered such a wide range of topics and could have separated them better. For example in Romans 9 to 11 he's speaking about Israel and not individual salvation but many refuse to accept this.
Even Peter thought it was difficult to understand him.
2 Peter 3:16.

 

[chessman]

What's interesting is that the early church did not have a concept of being saved the way we do today.

Something that’s interesting to me is that they were not lacking anything necessary for the confirmation of their salvation in the end because they received the very same Grace of God in Christ Jesus as we do.

I am giving-thanks to my God always for you for the grace of God having been given to you in Christ Jesus, because you were enriched in everything in Him— in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you— so that you are not lacking in any gift while eagerly-awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who also will confirm you until the end so as to be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through Whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.​

1 Corinthians 1:4-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 1:4-9&version=DLNT

 

[GodsGrace]

Something that’s interesting to me is that they were not lacking anything necessary for the confirmation of their salvation in the end because they received the very same Grace of God in Christ Jesus as we do.

I am giving-thanks to my God always for you for the grace of God having been given to you in Christ Jesus, because you were enriched in everything in Him— in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you— so that you are not lacking in any gift while eagerly-awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who also will confirm you until the end so as to be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through Whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.​

1 Corinthians 1:4-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 1:4-9&version=DLNT

They believed in grace and in good behavior. A combination of both.
They followed what Jesus taught. Grace would lead us till the end.
Ephesians 2:8-10
The problem is that some today believe they could return to a life of sin and still be saved.
Jesus said the lawless will not be saved.
1 Timothy 1:8-9

 

[chessman]

They believed in grace and in good behavior. A combination of both.

Sure, The Father's Graceful gift of faith and Christ Jesus's good loving behavior so that no one of us can boast in ourselves.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them.​

The problem is that some today believe they could return to a life of sin

Yep, that's a big problem.
Have they not heard how Paul was a foremost blasphemer and violent man, yet Christ Jesus came to save him giving him eternal life?

1 Tim 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and worthy of all acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.​

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, The Father's Graceful gift of faith and Christ Jesus's good loving behavior so that no one of us can boast in ourselves.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them.​

Yep, that's a big problem.
Have they not heard how Paul was a foremost blasphemer and violent man, yet Christ Jesus came to save him giving him eternal life?

1 Tim 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and worthy of all acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.​

Works don't save us.
We're saved by grace through faith.
When we have faith in God, we receive the spark of life through Jesus.
We become truly born...born from above.
John 3:3-5

Regarding Paul, he was no longer violent after he became a follower of Jesus.
Jesus changes our lives if we follow Him.
Mathew 5:3-10

 

[chessman]

Jesus changes our lives if we follow Him.
Mathew 5:3-10

The lives of the blessed are changed:
Matthew 5:3-10

 

[FreeGrace]

True, and the Christ is Holy.......so therefore we will look like him

1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

True holiness comes from the Spirit that born again believers have been given.

All true. Yet, no one is saved by being "holy". Everyone is saved by putting their full trust in the work of Christ on the cross on their behalf.

 

[FreeGrace]

What's interesting is that the early church did not have a concept of being saved the way we do today.
They believed in salvation but by following the teachings of Jesus and obeying His commandments.
John 14:15 - “If you love me, keep my commands.

I'm not seeing anything about how to be saved in this verse. Please explain how this verse relates to the claim that the early church had a different concept of being saved than we do today.

Consider the response of the Jewish believers when Peter explained his visit with Cornelius in Acts 11 -
v.17 - So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

These were the most "early church" ever.

And let's not forget Paul's answer to the jailer in Acts 16:
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Today some churches teach that repentance is not even necessary.

Please define "repentance". Then I will be able to respond or refute.

Some of today's concepts would have been foreign ideas to those who came immediately after the Ascension.

I just quoted what those who came immediately after the Ascension said about salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

They believed in grace and in good behavior. A combination of both.
They followed what Jesus taught. Grace would lead us till the end.
Ephesians 2:8-10

v.10 isn't about getting saved. That was settled in v.8 and works are eliminated from salvation in v.9. v.10 is about what believers were created to do.

The problem is that some today believe they could return to a life of sin and still be saved.

Then, did Jesus mis-speak in John 10:28 when He said that those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH?

If your claim was true, then John 10:28 would have said something like this:
"I give them eternal life, and IF, OR AS LONG AS they don't return to a life of sin, they shall never perish."

But I see that He never said that. Or gave any conditions on recipients of eternal life so that they would never perish.

Jesus said the lawless will not be saved.
1 Timothy 1:8-9

Well, here are the verses:
"8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,"

I don't see anything in either verse about "not being saved" due to lawlessness.

what I do see is that the Law was designed for sinners, of which all of the human race are.

 

[FreeGrace]

Works don't save us.
We're saved by grace through faith.
When we have faith in God, we receive the spark of life through Jesus.
We become truly born...born from above.
John 3:3-5

Can a born again person (new creature) end up in hell?

If so, does the Bible speak of being un-born?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Yes, let us think about it.

Jesus was pointing out that the man wasn't keeping all the commandments. And only keeping most of them isn't good enough. So the man wasn't ready to hear "believe on Me". He needed to know WHY he needed to put his trust in the Messiah.

As it was, he thought he was good enough to enter heaven. But Jesus showed him just how wrong he was. And, what was the result?

v.22 - When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

There it is. He found out that he wasn't perfect. Not by a long shot.

Brother FG you quote the rich man was " not ready" to believe in Christ according to Jesus Himself. So should we share the gospel only with ONES who ARE ready? and NOT with others like the rich man who in your words were "not ready? "