Free at last..

[evenifigoalone]

I do apologize if it seemed like I blew up before. I was rather irritated at the time, trying to pack for my trip (and thus shouldn't have been in the computer in the first place), plus when covering topics involving debatable scripture like that that are made out by at least one side to be of some significant importance, I stress myself out just trying to wade through the arguments presented.

That said, I still do not intend to return to the topic; at least not debating. I feel like further discussion on the particulars as far as Im concerned would not be profitable.
Personally I am very happy with my church; I love the people there, the teaching seems doctrinally sound and thought provoking. It just seems to be where God wants me. If He has other plans for me, then I am sure He will tell me so in His time. While studying the Bible for guidance is very important, there's little point in stressing myself out over someone else thinking my reading of scripture is wrong, y'know? There are all kinds of people on this forum who seem to think it a matter of life and death to tell others that any doctrine other than the one they themselves hold is wrong. All I can is study for myself and listen to God; let others think whatever they want.
If it turns out that Im wrong, I trust that God will reveal that to me...eventually.

 

[ejected]

Quest....David was happy when he built a cart, got an ox to pull it, and then put the ark on it. One Guy was killed because David failed to hall the ark the way God said to hall it. Happy feel goodism is not our guide to serving The Son of God. His word is.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Who says I'm basing my decision on "happy feel good" feelings? I examined the scripture you provided weeks ago, and I ended up coming to a different conclusion. Thus I do not believe my church attendance to be unscriptural.
Honestly, you don't have any ground upon which to tell me whether my decision was made for carnal or spiritual reasons. I mean, you don't know me from Adam, much less my driving motives behind going to church.

It's fine if you think my decision was wrong, though. Who am I to judge? If I can't even agree with myself at times, I can hardly expect others to agree with me all the time either.
But please respect that I'm not going to accept your version of the truth just because you think I should. There are also people who tell me, just as doggedly, that I am wrong for holding to the 5 fundamental doctrines, and OSAS, pre-trib rapture, young earth creationism, rejecting KJVOism, etc. I'm not going to change my mind just to appease people's personal hang-ups.
You yourself have been emphasizing the importance of listening to God over man. That is what I am trying to do.

Lastly: I don't intend to argue the matter further. That was not my intention when submitting my last reply. If it had been, I would have presented an actual argument in an attempt to refute your's.
See, when debating I can only go so far before I have to just stop and say, okay that's enough. Sooner or later, you reach an impasse where neither party is willing to budge. And in my experience, from there on out there's little to nothing positive or good to be gained from further discussion.

 

[ejected]

Didn't mean to get you riled Quest, but when you said you r happy with church as it is.....that scares me. But, however, I do stand corrected when you said you'll still continue to dialogue on the matter, of which I breath a sigh of relief and apologize for any undo stress I put on you. Not my intention but rather the opposite.
You'll have to know that I have been hammered without ceasing for putting forth my thesis backed with clear scripture which blows me away....not really.
My pure intention is to help folks find a deeper and more abiding relationship with the Christ of all glory.
Just in recent years I have discovered, by His gentle persuasion and by a lot of hard knocks, that the body of Christ is being cheated, intentionally and unintentionally, out of their rightful heritage in Jesus. Not talking about salvation.
I'm talking about the scriptures clear teaching on the purpose of God, and that is to express Himself, not only to us, but through us to the world around us.
God has a body with many parts. That's us. All His parts have been given gifts and functions that are to be operational corporately.
Not one gift is more important than another. Yet man has taken the Ephesian 5 functions and have decreed them into an upper rank, Clerical position of specialness controlling the congregation and making all the decisions.
This is made weak and impotent the folks whereby they have all but been relegated into silent, passive, spectators, paying ones at that.
You tell me. If you were to strap down your left arm where it could not ever move or function, what happens to your arm? It will shribble (did i spell that right) up and die. This is not natural. Every part of the human body needs to function or dire consequences will take over.
Jesus Christ cannot fully express Himself within the gathering together of the saints through just one man or a special team.
The 'church' has been reduced to one mouth and a whole bunch of ears. This is not good. Basically the Head, Jesus, has been replaced by a man, a mediator between the folks and Christ.
Take a real close look at 1Cor. 12 and 14. All parts are operating, not just one charismatic individual. In fact. See if you can find an executive pastor in those chapters. The one controller presiding.
Again picture a guy lying on the street and the only thing he can move is his mouth. Welcome to the church.
I'll explain the masking tape on women's mouths later.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IMHO the traditional church structure is to lift up and put on a pedestal the pastor and their personality, yet forgetting the person setting up the sound equipment, getting the kitchen ready, cleaning toilets, etc, and forgetting each serve a separate, yet equally important role and task. It was almost nauseous how people lifted up the Rabbi (we were attending a Messianic Jewish congregation) over other members of the body.

When I read this I thought of this:

"17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” " (1 Timothy 5:17-18 NASB)

But you seem to be saying it's wrong for the church to honor parts of the body differently(?)

Now I don't know you from Adam, so I'm not accusing you, but did you know that it can be pride in us that won't allow another person to be exalted? I think that's an example of 'projection'. The pride of exaltation we are sure we see in another is actually in us. This, IMO, is the primary source of faultfinding.

Having worked in difficult work situation for many years I noticed the boss usually was picked to pieces simply because he enjoyed rights and privileges that came with the added responsibilities he had that those who picked him to pieces wish they had for themselves. It comes out as 'you're not worthy of the honor you enjoy (but surely I am worthy of)'. It's nothing more than pride and envy disguised in critical faultfinding.

Just throwing it out there for us to digest. Not judging anybody. How can I do that. I don't know anybody personally in this forum.

But anyway, the scriptures show us their is indeed some differentiation between body parts not only allowed, but commanded.

No, maybe I didn't make my thoughts clear or complete them. As @Edward said it is the glorifying almost of the pastor/minister. Yes, respect and duly recognize the teachers and preachers, but recognize that they are still a servant in the body of Christ, as we all are.

Why leave a church when someone is doing that to the pastors/elders. I think you should reserve your freedom to vacate when the pastors/elders are demanding and expecting it. See the difference? This in no way means the system is wrong. It means the men operating in that system are wrong.

It is when they take on the shepherd/overseer/elder roles all in one and control the direction of the congregation because we as a society lift up our pastors to a fault allowing them to make decisions in all areas. This is played out in churches great and small.

That's what leaders are supposed to do.

Do you really think you can trust the spiritual decisions of the church to those who 1) have not been appointed by God by virtue of spiritual calling to do that, and 2) aren't even running their own lives according to God's will? They're there to grow up into the stature of Christ, not make the important decisions for the whole church. When they grow up and demonstrate knowledge and a calling from God then they can serve in leadership and be responsible for the spiritual guidance of the church.

It takes a special church with special people to operate effectively and efficiently to make it work. Maybe I haven't done enough work to understand the biblical principles of the structure of a body of believers, but this might be good homework to do.

Just thinking of Moses and Aaron, it was Moses leading the people and Aaron leading the religious ceremonies, not Moses doing both. If I understand the principles of their respective duties and responsibilities.

I think the structure of the Israelite community is an excellent place to start examining God's will for leadership and structure in his body. And we can see it was much bigger than just Moses and Aaron.

IMO, this is the foundational principle of church structure/ leadership:

"13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?” 15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
17 Moses’ father-in-law replied, “What you are doing is not good. 18 You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone. 19 Listen now to me and I will give you some advice, and may God be with you. You must be the people’s representative before God and bring their disputes to him. 20 Teach them his decrees and instructions, and show them the way they are to live and how they are to behave. 21 But select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 22 Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can decide themselves. That will make your load lighter, because they will share it with you. 23 If you do this and God so commands, you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied.”
24 Moses listened to his father-in-law and did everything he said. 25 He chose capable men from all Israel and made them leaders of the people, officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 26 They served as judges for the people at all times. The difficult cases they brought to Moses, but the simple ones they decided themselves.
27 Then Moses sent his father-in-law on his way, and Jethro returned to his own country." (Exodus 18: NASB)

That Jethro, he was a pretty smart guy. ;)

(Sorry, couldn't pass that one up, lol.)

 

[reba]

When are we ever going to grasp what is the right thing for one does not mean it is right for every one....

My sister is the type who wears nylons under slacks.... She was born a lady, loves the Lord , Likes going to Bible study and also like the Sunday morning dress up church... Me I was born in blue jeans don't want to bother with Sunday morning dress up... like casual Bible studies... Loved to set on the floor until I found it was getten kinda hard to get up Loved camp meetings as a kid... We don't and wont fit into the same small box..... Christianity is a BIG box and thankfully our God loves those who dress up and those who like bluejeans... This same thought carries over to home meeting or 'church' meetings .... A group could start home meeting and quickly a leader could surface.... Praise the Lord ! A group could start a home meeting and no leader surfaces ... Praise the Lord...

All the churches I have been in have a board of directors . I have not seen a church where the pastor is "king".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just in recent years I have discovered, by His gentle persuasion and by a lot of hard knocks, that the body of Christ is being cheated, intentionally and unintentionally, out of their rightful heritage in Jesus.

Apart from your 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' ideas about church leadership, I basically agree with what you see must be done in our meetings. The problem is you will not get anything done the way you are trying to do it now. You will only alienate and harden people into what they know and are used to doing, and which their father, and his father before him did, and so on, and so on....

IMO, the ONLY way you will affect a change in the present church system is to find pastors/elders (called, trained, and ordained ones) presently operating in the system who know and agree with what the Bible says about 'body' ministry. These pastors/elders should start holding alternate meetings on, say, Saturday nights and do the things you've been talking about. If they are done correctly, and as a result, people find out this really works it will grow and grow and then THEY the people will want the main meetings to be as successful and satisfying as the Saturday night (or whatever night) meetings they've been attending.

As is always true of the church, when the traditional churches see that a movement has spun up that people are flocking to it they will bring it into their own way of doing things just for the sake of keeping numbers. Look at how worship has changed in so many hardline denom's because they met the demand of people who found out about 'Spirit filled' worship and enjoyed it outside of their traditional church.

I'm convinced this is the ONLY way change will come to the church. It will win people, and not be so 'in yo' face', alienating them and hardening them all the more to the truth. I just ask you to examine how many things have loosened up in the church today because mainline denoms saw what was working in other places and which pastors then sought out and brought it into their own churches in the interest of survival.

But like I say, don't expect a dramatic change. The truth rarely wins big numbers.

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION] we left the church due to his manipulation of people who put him on a pedestal for the sake of purchasing a new building. Those of us who weren't in agreement with the building, were seen as troublemakers. As a result, the congregation is fractured over a stupid building and ones man's quest to have his will done.

I see the pastor as being of equality with the selected elders of a church, not the overseers of them. That has been solely my experience, an more often then not, the consequences are less than favorable when the pastor is at the top of the food chain so to speak, instead of a body of deacons.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

@Jethro Bodine we left the church due to his manipulation of people who put him on a pedestal for the sake of purchasing a new building. Those of us who weren't in agreement with the building, were seen as troublemakers. As a result, the congregation is fractured over a stupid building and ones man's quest to have his will done.

I'm not clear on this. Who wanted the building, the people, or the pastor/elder?

I see the pastor as being of equality with the selected elders of a church, not the overseers of them.

But as we see, this is just not Biblically supportable.

All your idea of leadership structure promotes is the possibility of more than one pastor/elder as a unified group lording it over the flock. You who cites experiences, you don't think that happens? I can tell you confidently that it does.

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] he said God put on his heart to look for a building. As we didn't have the funds, we put really low bids on a building, and if it worked out, it had to of been from the Lord. There was a price cap, and that was it, we couldn't go over it. Nonetheless, without the approval of the congregation and the pastor had the trustees submitting to his will, the price cap went up and the building was bought. Nonetheless, there was a huge financial push to get more funds and do fundraising which was not at all in the spirit of that church before.

So the building was bought, taxes were not accounted for in the sale, so that was another hit. The city stopped the renos from happening due to not having the proper permits and the building not structurally sound. But of course, those were the devil's obstacles to prevent this building of God to open (eyes rolling in the back of my head). It was a disaster, and we wanted no part of it. Don't mean to use this as a sounding board, but learned some pretty practical lessons.

I will study this out a bit more, and maybe how I see the church structure isn't biblical.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Didn't mean to get you riled Quest, but when you said you r happy with church as it is.....that scares me.

I'm happy with MY church as it is. There is a difference.

But, however, I do stand corrected when you said you'll still continue to dialogue on the matter, of which I breath a sigh of relief and apologize for any undo stress I put on you. Not my intention but rather the opposite.
You'll have to know that I have been hammered without ceasing for putting forth my thesis backed with clear scripture which blows me away....not really.
My pure intention is to help folks find a deeper and more abiding relationship with the Christ of all glory.
Just in recent years I have discovered, by His gentle persuasion and by a lot of hard knocks, that the body of Christ is being cheated, intentionally and unintentionally, out of their rightful heritage in Jesus. Not talking about salvation.
I'm talking about the scriptures clear teaching on the purpose of God, and that is to express Himself, not only to us, but through us to the world around us.
God has a body with many parts. That's us. All His parts have been given gifts and functions that are to be operational corporately.
Not one gift is more important than another. Yet man has taken the Ephesian 5 functions and have decreed them into an upper rank, Clerical position of specialness controlling the congregation and making all the decisions.
This is made weak and impotent the folks whereby they have all but been relegated into silent, passive, spectators, paying ones at that.
You tell me. If you were to strap down your left arm where it could not ever move or function, what happens to your arm? It will shribble (did i spell that right) up and die. This is not natural. Every part of the human body needs to function or dire consequences will take over.
Jesus Christ cannot fully express Himself within the gathering together of the saints through just one man or a special team.
The 'church' has been reduced to one mouth and a whole bunch of ears. This is not good. Basically the Head, Jesus, has been replaced by a man, a mediator between the folks and Christ.
Take a real close look at 1Cor. 12 and 14. All parts are operating, not just one charismatic individual. In fact. See if you can find an executive pastor in those chapters. The one controller presiding.
Again picture a guy lying on the street and the only thing he can move is his mouth. Welcome to the church.
I'll explain the masking tape on women's mouths later.

Hey, you've been over all this before, many times over in fact. And I already explained my points of disagreement weeks ago...and they have not changed. So no need to rehash it.

That said, the method that they used at the Christian camp I attended recently--small groups listening to a message and then gathering together to discuss it, and over time getting close enough to share very personal things and support each other, was super effective. I would love it if churches in general did things more like that.
Right now, I can get a similar experience at the youth group in my church. My church also offers "small groups" which meet together in someone's house for prayer and Bible study. When I have to leave the youth group, and it will only be a year from now since I will no longer be in high school (yes, I'm graduating late, shhh), I'm honestly considering joining one of those groups.
I have no problem with doing both that and attending regular services. They both speak to me.

ETA:
I also like my church because I DO have opportunities to do something other than sit on my hands listening to sermons. That's one of the main reasons I decided it'd be a good idea to stay in the first place. I have opportunities to help out with the things the church does for outreach, and actually it's because I like to help out with those things that I get to know the people there.

I already explained before that despite my continued disagreement I did think you had some valid points. The idea of what my church calls a small group is the main one. The idea of doing more than just meeting once a week to listen to sermons is another.

 

[ejected]

I rehashed because I didn't know you read all my posts. I'm kinda like God. I repeat things over and over again.smile! Lol!

Ryan that's what I'm saying. All members need to cultivate the Spirit walk. All members need to be in agreement on decisions. When all are hearing the Spirit, unanimous will be the vote.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] he said God put on his heart to look for a building. As we didn't have the funds, we put really low bids on a building, and if it worked out, it had to of been from the Lord. There was a price cap, and that was it, we couldn't go over it. Nonetheless, without the approval of the congregation and the pastor had the trustees submitting to his will, the price cap went up and the building was bought. Nonetheless, there was a huge financial push to get more funds and do fundraising which was not at all in the spirit of that church before.

So the building was bought, taxes were not accounted for in the sale, so that was another hit. The city stopped the renos from happening due to not having the proper permits and the building not structurally sound. But of course, those were the devil's obstacles to prevent this building of God to open (eyes rolling in the back of my head). It was a disaster, and we wanted no part of it. Don't mean to use this as a sounding board, but learned some pretty practical lessons.

I will study this out a bit more, and maybe how I see the church structure isn't biblical.

See, the thing you gotta understand is this very same thing can happen with a group of leaders who don't have a single appointed overseer over them and consider themselves equals.

The answer is not to destroy the Biblical structure of leadership to prevent abuses and misguided, uninformed, selfish decisions. The answer is for people in the ranks of Biblical leadership to do the right things. Sometimes that means leadership gets left holding the bag of their own misguided self-centered decisions. Then those over them can do the clean up. They won't get in the habit of letting it happen over and over. Accountability works where there is authority, not just equality.

 

[ezra]

One man is not called to make all the decisions. Paul called addressed the Ephecian elders in Acts 20.
All the other letters that he wrote to the ekklesias were written to all the saints as a body. Every member Had the Christ within. Decisions were made unanimously.

one man pastors the church votes the pastor in to lead.... while some churches may place full authority to the pastor. the ones i know of the members vote on electing offices and finances... the pastor leads to build the church