Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[childeye]

We have free choice, we can choose to walk away from God!

And go where?

We are conforming to Christ, that would not happen w/out our participation, we are dying to the cross daily, if you leave out the action verbs that God told us to do, then you are ignoring much of the gospel and you are not actively dying to ourself nor are you actively carrying your cross.

I'm not the one saying we don't have to do the action verbs. I don't even care about the action verbs since I follow after the Spirit not the letter. I never said we don't have a will hence I will to follow the Spirit because I believe that there is Life there. Nor did I say we do not participate. After all the metamorphisis is happening to us, so it is impossible to not be a participant. Dying to one's self is the work of the Spirit overcoming the carnal which includes what you call a freewill, hence you say above we can deny God which is the carnal part of man but in contrast the Spirit says you must deny yourselves showing the Spirit belongs to God. When the Spirit overcomes the carnal then your will is free from sin which before considered the ability to deny God as a free choice but in reality was slavery. Disobedience is not a viable option to the faithful, of this I am sure. I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[childeye]

C A L V I N I S M as usual..

And obviously you could not answer the simple question which I asked.

I answered your questions as best I can despite dealing with the semantics involved. Please understand that to an insane man the sane are insane so also do all terms reverse accordingly. Some see God's grace as being forced and others see it as being rescued. Hence the Gospel makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind.

 

[childeye]

i suggest you all supply a definition to freewill and stick to it so that we are not arguing semantics when in fact we agree in principle.

 

[childeye]

Rockie

I’m very sorry to say these things in front of you. I know that you still hold Christianity in high regard. But I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion. Has been since its beginning. And those who are truly in Christ have bought into it for two millennia. Even I bought into it for years. I don’t kick myself for having been deceived for so long, because I had a lot of good company. But I now know and believe that Christianity does not portray or represent what the Bible is truly saying, what Jesus Christ is revealing through the Bible. The above post to Childeye reveals partly why I believe as I do. And why I call myself a

Former Christian

And what part of what I say makes you despise Christ, that men who sin are slaves to sin? He said it, I just believe it and so I speak it. I dare say you are a former Christian because you never really knew Who Christ is or else you would not deny him. Show me a greater Love you've seen that is worthy to believe in.

 

[patience7]

i suggest you all supply a definition to freewill and stick to it so that we are not arguing semantics when in fact we agree in principle.

I posted a definition in post #72.

 

[childeye]

Whom you obey is your master - Still is your choice on whom you will obey. When we are told to Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil . . . . (James 4:7) To submit myself to God is a choice that I make - then I have also made the choice to resist the devil.

Yes I've already said the same thing.

Adam and Eve had a perfect, one on one relationship with God. They daily walked and talked with Him so they knew Him.

Are you then saying Adam and Eve deliberately defamed God and judged Him corruptible when they knew he was not?

Then entered the serpent (satan) - Now a choice has entered the picture. Do they believe what God told them or do they believe what Satan told them? We know the answer.

We do choose to obey God. Although this is from the Old Testament and although we are not under the law with the new covenant; we still daily have to make the choice - walk in the Spirit or walk by the flesh -

Yes I agree about the choice being made present in the garden. And the issue here to me is about trust. Who do you trust? I don't think they really knew Him since they distrusted Him and He is trustworthy. But you and I do not agree on the definition of freewill. I regard a freewill as one that is not held captive to lies and made able to not sin, as in the Truth will set you free. It matters not to me that we make decisions but rather as to what those decisions are. For where is the ability to choose if you are not able to do what you ought? So I know we choose what to eat and drink and when to wiggle my toes, but as pertains to morality, I believe it is a matter of character and by whose spirit you are fathered by. Hence Jesus said the works of your Father you will do and the works of my Father I will do. So also did he say, that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Also the children of God return good for evil. Therefore the qualifier as to what one wills to do is not merely the ability to deliberate mental computation but what spirit sired your spirit and inhabits your desires.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

This is a poor example of proving freewill since after agreeing to do the law no one kept it. You must show you cannot sin to prove you are not a slave to sin.

It's God's will that none perish but that all shall come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) That's God's will - but since He has allowed men to make the choice - there will be some that will perish or else everyone would be a believer and we know that that is not the case.

You quote 2 Peter 3:9. Always someone tries to prove there is freewill by showing people chose to deny God. You are assuming that God could do nothing to stop them because He wants all men to repent and this is proof of freewill. How do you not know they are not ruled by the devil? The children of the devil choose differently than the children of God yet both choose. Here stubborness and ignorance through pride are most likely the culprits. Hence we see a will choosing according to carnal character traits, not necessarily a free will choosing freely. Did you know that scripture says the carnal mind cannot be subject to God? Does this carnal minded person have a freewill when he cannot be subject to God? Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You will most likely say flesh is a choice, an option, even though we were all dead in our sins without the grace that comes through Christ. Even though the law has already proven us all sinners. As I said, show me someone that does God's will and cannot sin, that will is in Truth a free will. I do not think the faithful consider disobedience or weakness in the flesh an ability but a disability.
For only the carnal mind would prefer sin.
1 John 3:8-9

American Standard Version (ASV)

8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

Patience, why do you believe? I want to know why YOU believe and why you think others do not.

 

[childeye]

free will - the freedom to have the mental power to decide and control what you do; a desire; a chosen decision; determination to do something

I used my freedom to make a chosen decision to believe in Christ after I heard the word of God. (Romans 10:17) And now that I have chosen to believe in Christ; your right I cannot not believe in Christ.

I see your point and I think you see mine, the children of God are born or quickened through the Word. You believed from the heart because you have the Word there bearing witness to the Christ, the Word come in the flesh. Some people don't have that word in their hearts.

 

[childeye]

That's some pretty hefty accusations there, wow! This must be freewill in action?

I'm sorry. I did not mean to accuse you, if that's how it was taken. I can see how it
could be construed that way.

 

[Eventide]

I answered your questions as best I can despite dealing with the semantics involved. Please understand that to an insane man the sane are insane so also do all terms reverse accordingly. Some see God's grace as being forced and others see it as being rescued. Hence the Gospel makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind.

You didn't even come close to answering the question which is this..

If you believe that God forces His grace upon men (Irrresistable grace), and the scriptures tell us that He is that true light which ligheth every man that comes into the world.. then how come not all men are forced to love Him..

 

[Elijah674]

You didn't even come close to answering the question which is this..

If you believe that God forces His grace upon men (Irrresistable grace), and the scriptures tell us that He is that true light which ligheth every man that comes into the world.. then how come not all men are forced to love Him..

Eventide, the thread title should tell the truth & say that it is Freedom of Choice that IS THE DOCTRIN OF CHRIST. And that this other OSAS is of the man of sin!

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, the thread title should tell the truth & say that it is Freedom of Choice that IS THE DOCTRIN OF CHRIST. And that this other OSAS is of the man of sin!

--Elijah

Well you know the deal.. everyone needs to have their S P E C I A L doctrines..

 

[patience7]

Yes I've already said the same thing.

Are you then saying Adam and Eve deliberately defamed God and judged Him corruptible when they knew he was not?

Yes I agree about the choice being made present in the garden. And the issue here to me is about trust. Who do you trust? I don't think they really knew Him since they distrusted Him and He is trustworthy. But you and I do not agree on the definition of freewill. I regard a freewill as one that is not held captive to lies and made able to not sin, as in the Truth will set you free. It matters not to me that we make decisions but rather as to what those decisions are. For where is the ability to choose if you are not able to do what you ought? So I know we choose what to eat and drink and when to wiggle my toes, but as pertains to morality, I believe it is a matter of character and by whose spirit you are fathered by. Hence Jesus said the works of your Father you will do and the works of my Father I will do. So also did he say, that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Also the children of God return good for evil. Therefore the qualifier as to what one wills to do is not merely the ability to deliberate mental computation but what spirit sired your spirit and inhabits your desires.


This is a poor example of proving freewill since after agreeing to do the law no one kept it. You must show you cannot sin to prove you are not a slave to sin.


You quote 2 Peter 3:9. Always someone tries to prove there is freewill by showing people chose to deny God. You are assuming that God could do nothing to stop them because He wants all men to repent and this is proof of freewill. How do you not know they are not ruled by the devil? The children of the devil choose differently than the children of God yet both choose. Here stubborness and ignorance through pride are most likely the culprits. Hence we see a will choosing according to carnal character traits, not necessarily a free will choosing freely. Did you know that scripture says the carnal mind cannot be subject to God? Does this carnal minded person have a freewill when he cannot be subject to God? Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You will most likely say flesh is a choice, an option, even though we were all dead in our sins without the grace that comes through Christ. Even though the law has already proven us all sinners. As I said, show me someone that does God's will and cannot sin, that will is in Truth a free will. I do not think the faithful consider disobedience or weakness in the flesh an ability but a disability.
For only the carnal mind would prefer sin.
1 John 3:8-9

American Standard Version (ASV)

8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

Patience, why do you believe? I want to know why YOU believe and why you think others do not.

Adam and Eve gave in to temptation - did they love or trust God any less? No

"For where is the ability to choose if you are not able to do what you ought?" I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

"a matter of character and by whose spirit you are fathered by" Are you saying that if one is born of God; he will be perfect? Are you saying that once one is born of God; he no longer has the responsiblity to make deliberate mental decisions because he will "automatically" do according "to the spirit that sired his spirit"?

"You must show you cannot sin to prove you are not a slave to sin" Are you saying that one born of God does not sin?

"show me someone that does God's will and cannot sin, that will is in Truth a free will" I can't show you someone that does not sin. There has been no one since Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:9,10 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I believe because I believed John 3:16-18 and those that are condemned chose not to believe. I believed Romans 10:9,10,17. I was sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise after I heard the word of truth which I chose to believe after I heard it. Eph. 1:13

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“Romansâ€

Why do you say that this refers to all men? You’re the one who says that people are deceived, that it’s not their fault. Paul clearly says that these people aren’t deceived, that they know the truth, and that they deserve what they get.


“And what part of what I say makes you despise Christ, that men who sin are slaves to sin? He said it, I just believe it and so I speak it. I dare say you are a former Christian because you never really knew Who Christ is or else you would not deny him. Show me a greater Love you've seen that is worthy to believe in.â€

Why do you say that? Sometimes what you say seems to come out of left field. Now you’re saying I’m a despiser of Christ, I deny Christ, and never knew Christ. Fascinating.

Well, let me react in kind. It is Christianity that denies Christ by its denominational, institutional, historical, man-made nature. Christianity includes within its ranks homosexuals, something that Paul said would happen within the ranks of those who know the truth and then proceed to deny it. And Christianity certainly denies truth and Christ the truth by its continual practice of interpretation. I’m not going to ask you which Christianity Christ you believe in. It’s clear that you’ve chosen the Christ of John Calvin the unrepentant murderer. I deny Christianity as representing Christ at all. And if you can’t see that truth, maybe it’s because it’s you who never knew Christ.

Is that what you wanted to hear? Does that give you sufficient proof that I’m the heathen you always thought I was? If you need more, I’m sure I can muster a few more things to say to help you out. After all, I’m indebted to people like you who opened my eyes to the truth concerning Christianity to begin with.

Incidentally, If anyone has evidence that Calvin did in fact eventually repent of the murders he condoned and encouraged, I would appreciate seeing it. I really don’t believe that of Calvin just because it suits my fancy.

FC

 

[childeye]

Childeye

“Romansâ€

Why do you say that this refers to all men? You’re the one who says that people are deceived, that it’s not their fault. Paul clearly says that these people aren’t deceived, that they know the truth, and that they deserve what they get.


“And what part of what I say makes you despise Christ, that men who sin are slaves to sin? He said it, I just believe it and so I speak it. I dare say you are a former Christian because you never really knew Who Christ is or else you would not deny him. Show me a greater Love you've seen that is worthy to believe in.â€

Why do you say that? Sometimes what you say seems to come out of left field. Now you’re saying I’m a despiser of Christ, I deny Christ, and never knew Christ. Fascinating.

Well, let me react in kind. It is Christianity that denies Christ by its denominational, institutional, historical, man-made nature. Christianity includes within its ranks homosexuals, something that Paul said would happen within the ranks of those who know the truth and then proceed to deny it. And Christianity certainly denies truth and Christ the truth by its continual practice of interpretation. I’m not going to ask you which Christianity Christ you believe in. It’s clear that you’ve chosen the Christ of John Calvin the unrepentant murderer. I deny Christianity as representing Christ at all. And if you can’t see that truth, maybe it’s because it’s you who never knew Christ.

Is that what you wanted to hear? Does that give you sufficient proof that I’m the heathen you always thought I was? If you need more, I’m sure I can muster a few more things to say to help you out. After all, I’m indebted to people like you who opened my eyes to the truth concerning Christianity to begin with.

Incidentally, If anyone has evidence that Calvin did in fact eventually repent of the murders he condoned and encouraged, I would appreciate seeing it. I really don’t believe that of Calvin just because it suits my fancy.

FC

Dear FC, I owe you an apology. I do believe I misunderstood what you meant. And since that is the case, I have spoken out of ignorance to you. For that I will gladly apologize for it is a great relief to me to be wrong about you. For some reason I had taken you to mean you blamed people like me for you despising Christianity. I told you I am not a Calvinist.

 

[childeye]

Adam and Eve gave in to temptation - did they love or trust God any less? No

I agree with this to a point. I don't think Adam and Eve knew they were subconsciously accepting a corrupt image of God. They did however in all honesty end up distrusting God, for they believed Satan.

"For where is the ability to choose if you are not able to do what you ought?" I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

If I say I have a freewill to choose to do something, yet I can't accomplish that something that I said I had chosen to do, then I do not have the freewill that I thought I had.

"a matter of character and by whose spirit you are fathered by" Are you saying that if one is born of God; he will be perfect? Are you saying that once one is born of God; he no longer has the responsiblity to make deliberate mental decisions because he will "automatically" do according "to the spirit that sired his spirit"?

I'm saying this is what Jesus said. The children of God return good for evil. the works of your Father you will do.

"You must show you cannot sin to prove you are not a slave to sin" Are you saying that one born of God does not sin?

I'm saying the scriptures say that. 1 John 3:9



9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"show me someone that does God's will and cannot sin, that will is in Truth a free will" I can't show you someone that does not sin. There has been no one since Jesus Christ.

My question was meant to be rhetorical as in pointing out the direction of freedom.

1 John 1:9,10 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I believe we are works in progress. We all have sin through Adam. If this is not the case that this scripture is refering to, then the author is contradicting himself in 1 John 3:9.

I believe because I believed John 3:16-18 and those that are condemned chose not to believe. I believed Romans 10:9,10,17. I was sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise after I heard the word of truth which I chose to believe after I heard it. Eph. 1:13

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)



8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 6:65

King James Version (KJV)


65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[patience7]

I agree with this to a point. I don't think Adam and Eve knew they were subconsciously accepting a corrupt image of God. They did however in all honesty end up distrusting God, for they believed Satan.

If I say I have a freewill to choose to do something, yet I can't accomplish that something that I said I had chosen to do, then I do not have the freewill that I thought I had.

I'm saying this is what Jesus said. The children of God return good for evil. the works of your Father you will do.

I'm saying the scriptures say that. 1 John 3:9

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

My question was meant to be rhetorical as in pointing out the direction of freedom.

I believe we are works in progress. We all have sin through Adam. If this is not the case that this scripture is refering to, then the author is contradicting himself in 1 John 3:9.

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 6:65

King James Version (KJV)

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I have never heard that Adam and Eve "subconsciously accepted a corrupt image of God" and it really doesn't make much sense to me.

When I say free will, I am meaning that we have the ability and right to choose to believe or reject salvation.

John 1:12, 13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We become sons of God because we receive that divine spirit which is from above, from God and is begotten "not by blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but begotten of God. This is all speaking of the spirit created in us, the new nature, the new man, born from above is only of God; to them that believe is this new nature given.

We have sin from Adam in our old nature, but we are washed, we are sanctified, we are justified, we are cleansed from all unrighteousness - in the flesh? NO. Spiritually and its in that where the believer does not sin. We still carry around that old nature (That which is born of the flesh is flesh) which cannot but sin and another nature - the new nature (that which is born of the Spirit is spirit) that cannot sin. (1 John 3:9) In the gospels, we have an Advocate (the Holy Spirit) with us so that we may not sin: and in the epistles, we have another Advocate (Jesus Christ the righteous One) with the Father, if we do sin. (1 John 2:1;
1 John 1:9)

Ephesians 2:8 for by grace ye are saved through faith: and this [salvation is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Our salvation is a gift of God, given by God's grace through our faith (belief) in his Son, Jesus Christ as Lord and belief that God raised him from the dead - (Romans 10:9)

 

[childeye]

I have never heard that Adam and Eve "subconsciously accepted a corrupt image of God" and it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Your very inability to see the false image sown, is evidence to it's subtlty. To be blunt, Satan called God a liar and was keeping things away from us that would make us greater than God wanted us to be. This is a corrupt image we accepted which made disobedience a viable option. For had we known He was protecting us in our innocence we would not have eaten. But the innocent have no concept of guile and were easy prey.

When I say free will, I am meaning that we have the ability and right to choose to believe or reject salvation.

Respectfully, You've already said you cannot choose to not believe in Jesus. This statement contradicts that.

John 1:12, 13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We become sons of God because we receive that divine spirit which is from above, from God and is begotten "not by blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but begotten of God. This is all speaking of the spirit created in us, the new nature, the new man, born from above is only of God; to them that believe is this new nature given.

We have sin from Adam in our old nature, but we are washed, we are sanctified, we are justified, we are cleansed from all unrighteousness - in the flesh? NO. Spiritually and its in that where the believer does not sin. We still carry around that old nature (That which is born of the flesh is flesh) which cannot but sin and another nature - the new nature (that which is born of the Spirit is spirit) that cannot sin. (1 John 3:9) In the gospels, we have an Advocate (the Holy Spirit) with us so that we may not sin: and in the epistles, we have another Advocate (Jesus Christ the righteous One) with the Father, if we do sin. (1 John 2:1;
1 John 1:9)

Ephesians 2:8 for by grace ye are saved through faith: and this [salvation is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Our salvation is a gift of God, given by God's grace through our faith (belief) in his Son, Jesus Christ as Lord and belief that God raised him from the dead - (Romans 10:9)

I don't disagree with any of this. I must believe that men have different measures of faith(trust) according to Paul's statement God has chosen the lowly rich in faith; Jesus saying, I know you, that you do not have the Love of God in your heart, for him whom God has sent, in him you do not believe; Those who are of God hears God's word; they shall all be taught by God so whoever hears of the Father comes to me; The conversion of Saul into Paul; The parable of the sower; the parable of the tares; the parable of the eyes are the lamp of the soul. Peter saying we preach the hidden wisdom that God has now revealed unto our glory that had the princes of this world known they would not have crucified the Christ. The carnal mind cannot be subject to God. There is way too much to list here.

Suffice it to say what you see as a freewill choice I see as a division taking place. The Truth came down from heaven and each man was measured according to what he saw. Hence Jesus said if you are not for me you are against me which means a man can take no stand, make no decision and be against him by default.

 

[Eventide]

When I say free will, I am meaning that we have the ability and right to choose to believe or reject salvation.

There's only one SPECIAL group in all of Christendom which denies this..

That's Calvinism...

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin! That Is exactly what rome teach's. The pope is to be the last voice for mankind on earth. What he says cannot be revearsed by any man or group of men.

And God's Eternal Word has the Truth! Matt. 18:15-18 tell's who it is that Christ left His FREEWILL with! [THE 'OBEDIENT' CHURCH BODY!]

--Elijah

 

[childeye]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin! That Is exactly what rome teach's. The pope is to be the last voice for mankind on earth. What he says cannot be revearsed by any man or group of men.

And God's Eternal Word has the Truth! Matt. 18:15-18 tell's who it is that Christ left His FREEWILL with! [THE 'OBEDIENT' CHURCH BODY!]

--Elijah

Dear Elijah, You have changed the parameters of the discussion to make the Pope the one that holds men's wills accountable to. I understand your desire, but to clarify; servitude to God alone is a freewill and true obedience is to the altruistic Spirit of Love. Obedience to any false Truth is not obedience to God and is deception. Abiding in love is doing God's will. Is the Pope against this? I don't think so.