Bible Study Genesis 2-3

[Goldwing]

as taking from the fruit of this tree gives one eternal life as they could never physically die.

Glory, are you meaning that the saints who get to eat of this tree, will become immortal, like God?

I don't believe this would be the case as the saints will still have "freewill", and that permits the possibility that someone may sin. So if they can never die as I think you mean, then God's Kingdom will be polluted again.
I understand this will not be the case.

Your thoughts?

 

[eddif]

Glory, are you meaning that the saints who get to eat of this tree, will become immortal, like God?

I don't believe this would be the case as the saints will still have "freewill", and that permits the possibility that someone may sin. So if they can never die as I think you mean, then God's Kingdom will be polluted again.
I understand this will not be the case.

Your thoughts?

Romans 8:11 kjv
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

At the last trump we shall be changed. Them whose names are written in the lambs book of life will put on immortality and incorruption. Both not one.

1 Corinthians 15:53 kjv
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:19 kjv
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

The physical is tied to the spiritual.
Matthew 9:6 kjv
6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

In this lifetime and eternity we have benefits.

Do we have all things here on earth? No. At the resurrection everything will be completed.
Wonder what for_his_glory will say?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

Glory, are you meaning that the saints who get to eat of this tree, will become immortal, like God?

I don't believe this would be the case as the saints will still have "freewill", and that permits the possibility that someone may sin. So if they can never die as I think you mean, then God's Kingdom will be polluted again.
I understand this will not be the case.

Your thoughts?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I do believe everyone is created with freewill being saints or sinners and this is why I believe God banned Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden so they could not exercise their freewill in partaking of the tree of life and live forever. I explained the reason why in post #51.

 

[for_his_glory]

Such a distinction is artificial and does not exist anywhere in the Torah. It was invented by John Calvin.

Well then you do not understand Torah as all 613 laws are listed within it. John Calvin probably could not recite all 613 laws.

Here are the 613 laws broken down in categories

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

 

[T. E. Smith]

Well then you do not understand Torah as all 613 laws are listed within it. John Calvin probably could not recite all 613 laws.

Here are the 613 laws broken down in categories

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. What I mean is that the tripartite distinction, moral, civil, and ceremonial, is artificial and forced upon the text. Again, that was invented by Calvin.

I don't know if you were referring to this tripartite distinction or not, but usually when Christians separate out "the moral law", they are referring to the tripartite distinction. I want to make clear that all the laws have to do with morality.

 

[Goldwing]

1 Corinthians 15:53 kjv
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Eddif, very familiar with the text. However, I believe this is conditional immortality for the following reason.

In the new earth the saints will eat of the "tree of life," from month to month, year to year. So as long as the saints eat of it's fruit they have immortality, but it any saint or new created being should exercise their free will, God will put that individual to death that very day. This scenario was in force while Adam and Eve lived in Eden. This allows those saints who choose to live in harmony with God's laws to live for eternity and those who choose to sin to be put to death immediately therefore stoping the spread of sin. Under these circumstances, conditional immortality would seem to be more accurate the term.

Having lived with a fallen nature yourself and knowing first hand what evil is, would you question God's love for ending the life of any saint who being given an unfallen nature like Satan and Adam when they were created, should choose to sin?

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. What I mean is that the tripartite distinction, moral, civil, and ceremonial, is artificial and forced upon the text. Again, that was invented by Calvin.

I don't know if you were referring to this tripartite distinction or not, but usually when Christians separate out "the moral law", they are referring to the tripartite distinction. I want to make clear that all the laws have to do with morality.

What I am talking about are the moral laws that even the Gentiles are to follow within the greatest commandment of love. That is why I say they are the existing laws within the 613. Even what some like to separate and call "The Ten Commandments" are part of the 613 laws as nine of them were first given to Noah after the flood before more laws were added.

If you believe that Calvin came up with moral, civil, and ceremonial laws you will have to give proof for that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eddif, very familiar with the text. However, I believe this is conditional immortality for the following reason.

In the new earth the saints will eat of the "tree of life," from month to month, year to year. So as long as the saints eat of it's fruit they have immortality, but it any saint or new created being should exercise their free will, God will put that individual to death that very day. This scenario was in force while Adam and Eve lived in Eden. This allows those saints who choose to live in harmony with God's laws to live for eternity and those who choose to sin to be put to death immediately therefore stoping the spread of sin. Under these circumstances, conditional immortality would seem to be more accurate the term.

Having lived with a fallen nature yourself and knowing first hand what evil is, would you question God's love for ending the life of any saint who being given an unfallen nature like Satan and Adam when they were created, should choose to sin?

What is your source for this?

 

[eddif]

Eddif, very familiar with the text. However, I believe this is conditional immortality for the following reason.

In the new earth the saints will eat of the "tree of life," from month to month, year to year. So as long as the saints eat of it's fruit they have immortality, but it any saint or new created being should exercise their free will, God will put that individual to death that very day. This scenario was in force while Adam and Eve lived in Eden. This allows those saints who choose to live in harmony with God's laws to live for eternity and those who choose to sin to be put to death immediately therefore stoping the spread of sin. Under these circumstances, conditional immortality would seem to be more accurate the term.

Having lived with a fallen nature yourself and knowing first hand what evil is, would you question God's love for ending the life of any saint who being given an unfallen nature like Satan and Adam when they were created, should choose to sin?

for_his_glory asked for source for this post.
1. WeIl I have just always heard it preached this way. Give copy of sermon
2. I had a dream
3. Scripture verses
4. We all believe this way. Who is we?
5. Other proof?

I am curious. I am not expecting a seminary explanation. Just honest support.

eddif

 

[Edward]

for_his_glory asked for source for this post.
1. WeIl I have just always heard it preached this way. Give copy of sermon
2. I had a dream
3. Scripture verses
4. We all believe this way. Who is we?
5. Other proof?

I am curious. I am not expecting a seminary explanation. Just honest support.

eddif

There could be something to it. One could ask, why is the tree of Life needed in Heaven if we are all changed to be immortal?

I heard a testimony from someone on youtube which could support that notion in a roundabout way. They were taken up in Spirit and shown spme things. One of the things they mentioned was being at the New Jerusalem and made the remark that there were some which live outside the walls.../

Scripture describes the River of Life flowing out of the city, and the tree of Life spanning the river, outside the city walls. Right? No problem so far.

I remember scripture, there are four levels of relationship with God. Servant, Friend, Son, Bride.

Friends have more privliges in the home than servants do. But not as much as direct family, sons and daughters!
And Mom can walk in at any moment and that's like, Captain on Deck! You better listen!.

Rank has it's privliges. Are we in agreement so far? The Bride gets the most privleges and the best presents of anyone in the house. What will She get, that the sons don't? What will she get, that the friends or servants do not?

Will the servants live outside the city walls? Will the servants get the same level of "changed in the twinkling of an eye" that the Bride will get?

Now the Bride, is Unblemished. She is Totally Loyal and has shown it. So it's fairly easy to imagine that She will get more.

Maybe. Just Maybe...the servants who live outside the walls will find it necessary for them to eat from the tree of life for them to live eternally?

Servants are to be saved but somehow are not unblemished. Will the theif on the cross beside Jesus that Jesus said He will save him, be made a Son or Bride? I think not, it was too late in the game for him.

Some things to think about.

 

[for_his_glory]

There could be something to it. One could ask, why is the tree of Life needed in Heaven if we are all changed to be immortal?

I heard a testimony from someone on youtube which could support that notion in a roundabout way. They were taken up in Spirit and shown spme things. One of the things they mentioned was being at the New Jerusalem and made the remark that there were some which live outside the walls.../

Scripture describes the River of Life flowing out of the city, and the tree of Life spanning the river, outside the city walls. Right? No problem so far.

I remember scripture, there are four levels of relationship with God. Servant, Friend, Son, Bride.

Friends have more privliges in the home than servants do. But not as much as direct family, sons and daughters!
And Mom can walk in at any moment and that's like, Captain on Deck! You better listen!.

Rank has it's privliges. Are we in agreement so far? The Bride gets the most privleges and the best presents of anyone in the house. What will She get, that the sons don't? What will she get, that the friends or servants do not?

Will the servants live outside the city walls? Will the servants get the same level of "changed in the twinkling of an eye" that the Bride will get?

Now the Bride, is Unblemished. She is Totally Loyal and has shown it. So it's fairly easy to imagine that She will get more.

Maybe. Just Maybe...the servants who live outside the walls will find it necessary for them to eat from the tree of life for them to live eternally?

Servants are to be saved but somehow are not unblemished. Will the theif on the cross beside Jesus that Jesus said He will save him, be made a Son or Bride? I think not, it was too late in the game for him.

Some things to think about.

I never heard of any of God's own living outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Will have to research that. Rev 22:14-15 gives a description of those outside of the gates.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Edward]

I never heard of any of God's own living outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Will have to research that. Rev 22:14-15 gives a description of those outside of the gates.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

See, that's kind of what I'm saying right there. What it amounts to is like was posted, we will retain free will so there will be a certain amount of trustworthiness vs untrustworthiness which must take place.

For instance, will the thief who was crucified beside Jesus , the one told today you will be with me in paradise, be in as trusted of a position in Heaven as say...Paul will have? Or how about Mary?

Let's be realistic, those passages are describing the compassion of our God!

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

These people are saved people mind you! But they died with forgiveness, but also with blemishes. They are "potentially" untrustworthy. No they don't het keys to Fathers house! So I would susupect that the thief who got crucified will live outside the walls. Maybe he was a murderer? I don't know. But this man will be absoulutely ecstatic to have a nice small cottage right down by the River of Life somewhere! He will be praising God for all his days, because, He Lives!!!

His cup will runneth over even if it is only the size of a thimble.

Those inside the walls have already shown themselves to be trustworthy to various degrees.
Mom gets a key to the house. Even spares!
Sons and Daughters get keys to the house (now don't lose this...!??)
Some friends can get keys to the house. Not all friends, but a select few?

I think this is all about our spiritual development here on earth. If we skip classes maybe we can still muddle by and pass while others apply themselves and the principles in the Bible and...Voila'!! They made the Dean's list at Graduation, Yay!!!!! So they have a bigger cup than the guys outside. And it will overflow also.

So I think the reality is, Jesus has so much love and compassion for us that He is going to save some of the Lukewarm ones. But, other lukewarm ones He is going to say, away, I never knew you! That's scary if you ponder it.

 

[eddif]

There could be something to it. One could ask, why is the tree of Life needed in Heaven if we are all changed to be immortal?

I heard a testimony from someone on youtube which could support that notion in a roundabout way. They were taken up in Spirit and shown spme things. One of the things they mentioned was being at the New Jerusalem and made the remark that there were some which live outside the walls.../

Scripture describes the River of Life flowing out of the city, and the tree of Life spanning the river, outside the city walls. Right? No problem so far.

I remember scripture, there are four levels of relationship with God. Servant, Friend, Son, Bride.

Friends have more privliges in the home than servants do. But not as much as direct family, sons and daughters!
And Mom can walk in at any moment and that's like, Captain on Deck! You better listen!.

Rank has it's privliges. Are we in agreement so far? The Bride gets the most privleges and the best presents of anyone in the house. What will She get, that the sons don't? What will she get, that the friends or servants do not?

Will the servants live outside the city walls? Will the servants get the same level of "changed in the twinkling of an eye" that the Bride will get?

Now the Bride, is Unblemished. She is Totally Loyal and has shown it. So it's fairly easy to imagine that She will get more.

Maybe. Just Maybe...the servants who live outside the walls will find it necessary for them to eat from the tree of life for them to live eternally?

Servants are to be saved but somehow are not unblemished. Will the theif on the cross beside Jesus that Jesus said He will save him, be made a Son or Bride? I think not, it was too late in the game for him.

Some things to think about.

The description of new Jerusalem coming down not arrived. It is not totally heaven it is coming down out of heaven.

In Eden the tree was physical to keep Adam and Eve physically alive.

In the New Jerusalem it is about preparing for eternity with God.
We live partially on spiritual words in New Jerusalem, not carbs, protein etc. ( physical foods ) are not the major issue.

Blessed is the poor in spirit.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.
Matthew chapters 5 , 6, 7. Abstract issues of the heart and mind.

Abraham was looking for such a city. I don’t think Abraham could have totally described New Jerusalem, but he knew this life at its best is not the ultimate reality.

Through a glass darkly for now.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

See, that's kind of what I'm saying right there. What it amounts to is like was posted, we will retain free will so there will be a certain amount of trustworthiness vs untrustworthiness which must take place.

For instance, will the thief who was crucified beside Jesus , the one told today you will be with me in paradise, be in as trusted of a position in Heaven as say...Paul will have? Or how about Mary?

Let's be realistic, those passages are describing the compassion of our God!


These people are saved people mind you! But they died with forgiveness, but also with blemishes. They are "potentially" untrustworthy. No they don't het keys to Fathers house! So I would susupect that the thief who got crucified will live outside the walls. Maybe he was a murderer? I don't know. But this man will be absoulutely ecstatic to have a nice small cottage right down by the River of Life somewhere! He will be praising God for all his days, because, He Lives!!!

His cup will runneth over even if it is only the size of a thimble.

Those inside the walls have already shown themselves to be trustworthy to various degrees.
Mom gets a key to the house. Even spares!
Sons and Daughters get keys to the house (now don't lose this...!??)
Some friends can get keys to the house. Not all friends, but a select few?

I think this is all about our spiritual development here on earth. If we skip classes maybe we can still muddle by and pass while others apply themselves and the principles in the Bible and...Voila'!! They made the Dean's list at Graduation, Yay!!!!! So they have a bigger cup than the guys outside. And it will overflow also.

So I think the reality is, Jesus has so much love and compassion for us that He is going to save some of the Lukewarm ones. But, other lukewarm ones He is going to say, away, I never knew you! That's scary if you ponder it.

I'll try to research this more today before I can give you a reply.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Edward for_his_glory Never are any believers ever declared to be outside the walls of Jerusalem. That is what is meant by the term "outer darkness" - it's just the darkness on the outside. The unbelievers are said to be in the darkness outside God's heavenly city.

 

[Edward]

In the New Jerusalem it is about preparing for eternity with God.
We live partially on spiritual words in New Jerusalem, not carbs, protein etc. ( physical foods ) are not the major issue.

Blessed is the poor in spirit.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.
Matthew chapters 5 , 6, 7. Abstract issues of the heart and mind.

That's a good point. Man does not live by bread alone but by the words that He speaks (So we better know Him and be on His good side or He might talk about us).

Ezekial 3
3 Moreover He said to me, “Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” 2 So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll.

3 And He said to me, “Son of man, feed your belly, and fill your stomach with this scroll that I give you.” So I ate, and it was in my mouth like honey in sweetness.../

See that? Eating a scroll. And I have heard a cuple different Testimony videos where people say they were given a scroll to eat and instructed to do so at that time.

So you are right on the money Brother and that's backed up by Tesimony and scripture.

Ok, so the guys who live outside can eat freely from the tree of life and drink freely of the river of life...But will they be allowed into the city to go to the Library to devour a book or a scroll if they want? Maybe not. If they arent trusted then they might not be allowed in, which could potentially cause an incident? But there are so many promises about no thieves or liars anymore etc...

I suddenly get the feeling that it's going to take a lot longer to develop significantly in Heaven, than we are able to acheive on this earth!

After all, we are in class. And those glasses can't be so dark that you can't see that this is an "advanced" class! ?!
Surely this is an advanced class. Man, I hope I pass. I think I'm past making the Deans list, but idk, maybe I can still be an Honorable mention?!

 

[Edward]

I'll try to research this more today before I can give you a reply.

Take your time Sister. I'm not being dogmatic so I'm certainly open for corrections, lol. I realized that your post was to debate mine but realized that it actually supported what I have been saying! Or sure seems to.

Take your time.

 

[Edward]

Edward for_his_glory Never are any believers ever declared to be outside the walls of Jerusalem. That is what is meant by the term "outer darkness" - it's just the darkness on the outside. The unbelievers are said to be in the darkness outside God's heavenly city.

Point made! I hear you. You don't believe any of it, gotcha! Now please let us talk amongst ourselves who do believe.

Thank you Sir.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Point made! I hear you. You don't believe any of it, gotcha! Now please let us talk amongst ourselves who do believe.

Thank you Sir.

Address the argument, not the person

 

[Edward]

Address the argument, not the person

That's what I was doing. I addressed eddif, and I addresses ForHisglory and somehow I got a heckler from the audiance. What kind of class is that, man?

We got a great thread going here. Us believers. And we're simply tossing around some slighty deeper Christian concepts and possibilities, so what's wrong with that?

Please don't trash up this thread with your nonsense. Is that too much to ask?? Shut up and sit down. Sir. And please, please do not go all social justice warrior on me and try to make this into some weird debate thread with you. Please stand down in this thread. If you wanna argue with me or other Christians start another thread and I'll come over there and have at it with you.

Just not here man. Stand down. Please.