Bible Study "gift of faith" Clarity

[Russell228]

mark 16:17---Christ says that the signs that follow ALL them that believe are that they will be able to speak in new tongues, cast out devils, lay hands on the sick and healing take place, etc.. If ALL believers are able to do this, and the "gift of faith" that Paul speaks of 1 corinthians 12:9 is NOT given to all, does that mean that the faith used in Luke 10:19 to do what Jesus said ALL Christians can do is different from the faith Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 12:9? What is the difference. I would think that the Faith used in Luke 10:19 to do such things would require a good bit of faith.

Jesus also says in Mark 11:23 "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him." Is this the "gift of faith" or regular faith given to every believer?

 

[Mike]

Russell,

It's in our ToS that you need to site the version of the Bible that we are referencing. This is important here, because in Luke 10:19, I only see Christ telling His disciples that they will trample snakes and scorpions and never be harmed by the evil one. I don't see anything about talking in tongues.

What version are you using, and where to you see all the things you mentioned?

It seems to me there is often debate as to whether the power He does give to His disciples was only for them as he was sending them out, or if it was for all who would come to believe in Him.

If you're looking for an honest discussion on the topic, this could well prove to be an interesting one, but if you are intending to defend your point against those to disagree with you and form a debate, this thread will need to be moved to the Apologetics & Theology Forum.

Welcome to CFnet.

 

[Russell228]

Russell,

It's in our ToS that you need to site the version of the Bible that we are referencing. This is important here, because in Luke 10:19, I only see Christ telling His disciples that they will trample snakes and scorpions and never be harmed by the evil one. I don't see anything about talking in tongues.

What version are you using, and where to you see all the things you mentioned?

It seems to me there is often debate as to whether the power He does give to His disciples was only for them as he was sending them out, or if it was for all who would come to believe in Him.

If you're looking for an honest discussion on the topic, this could well prove to be an interesting one, but if you are intending to defend your point against those to disagree with you and form a debate, this thread will need to be moved to the Apologetics & Theology Forum.

Welcome to CFnet.

All, I am truly truly sorry. I mean Mark 16:17.

Mike, I'm not looking to defend anything. As the thread states, I would really like some clarity. I am editing scripture now in original post. Thank you for the welcome.

 

[handy]

Here is the text in question in various translations:

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; KJV 2003

"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; NASB 1995

And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; ESV 2001

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; NIV 1984


What I fail to see in any of these translations is the word "all". The Scriptures do not record that Jesus said all these signs would follow all believers, but rather these would be the signs that accompany those who believe.

For illustration, let us say that I am a music teacher... I could say "My students play guitar, piano, violin and banjo."

Meaning that some of my students play guitar, some play piano, some play violin and some play the banjo... Perhaps some play more than one of the instruments, maybe one or two play all.

Jesus is teaching what signs will manifested in believers... but He did not say that all believers will manifest all signs at all times.

One of the truths about faith is that faith motivates us to act according to God's will in any given situation.

The reason why Jesus says confidently that the mountain would indeed tumble into the sea upon the command of a faithful one, is because He knows that the faithful one was merely commanding what God Himself wills, and it would be by the power of God that the mountain would come down.

It's not a matter of the faithful being given carte blanche to go about rearranging God's creation just because they feel like it, or in order to show off.

Should it be God's will that I wade through a pit of rattlesnakes in order to bring the gospel to someone on the other side... I would wade in confident that no harm would come to me.

If, on the other hand, I'm doing it to make a show or try to impress people that I'm somehow favored by God... I'd better have some anti-venom handy.

Any believer can manifest any of the signs if it is to God's purpose that it be done... but that all believers are gifted with all the signs, with all the gifts of the Spirit... no, we know that isn't true because we are told in 1 Corinthians 12 that not all do prophesy or speak in tongues, etc.

 

[Elijah674]

All, I am truly truly sorry. I mean Mark 16:17.

Mike, I'm not looking to defend anything. As the thread states, I would really like some clarity. I am editing scripture now in original post. Thank you for the welcome.

Hi, Elijah here.
I am a Christian who also does indeed Love my Lord, & try to EAT up His Words. Matt. 4:4. 'i' say that because I want you to know that I do indeed believe all 66 Books as studied, to be my 'spiritual diet'.

My POINT being made is that of My Lord's prayer of.. 'Thy will be done'. (not my will numbering first place) Got that?? Total submission IS REQUIRED. And why not?? Because most of us do not hardly know enough to even come in out of the rain. (rain meaning conversations with known evil ones as seen in Gen. 3:1-5)

And what Born Again one would ask for a mt. per/say to be moved? or snake handeling??
See satans comment to Christ in Matt. 4:5-6 with an almost exact BIBLE QUOTE from Psalms 91:11. What was wrong with that tempting question?? And Christ's REPLY?? ibid 7 came from O.T. Deut. 6:16.

And the point??? ALL OF THE LORDS PROMISES PERTAINING TO SALVATION ARE SUBJECT TO HIS CONDITIONS! Acts 5:32 Requires total submission for being Born Again.

 

[Russell228]

Here is the text in question in various translations:

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; KJV 2003

"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; NASB 1995

And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; ESV 2001

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; NIV 1984


What I fail to see in any of these translations is the word "all". The Scriptures do not record that Jesus said all these signs would follow all believers, but rather these would be the signs that accompany those who believe.

For illustration, let us say that I am a music teacher... I could say "My students play guitar, piano, violin and banjo."

Meaning that some of my students play guitar, some play piano, some play violin and some play the banjo... Perhaps some play more than one of the instruments, maybe one or two play all.

Jesus is teaching what signs will manifested in believers... but He did not say that all believers will manifest all signs at all times.

One of the truths about faith is that faith motivates us to act according to God's will in any given situation.

The reason why Jesus says confidently that the mountain would indeed tumble into the sea upon the command of a faithful one, is because He knows that the faithful one was merely commanding what God Himself wills, and it would be by the power of God that the mountain would come down.

It's not a matter of the faithful being given carte blanche to go about rearranging God's creation just because they feel like it, or in order to show off.

Should it be God's will that I wade through a pit of rattlesnakes in order to bring the gospel to someone on the other side... I would wade in confident that no harm would come to me.

If, on the other hand, I'm doing it to make a show or try to impress people that I'm somehow favored by God... I'd better have some anti-venom handy.

Any believer can manifest any of the signs if it is to God's purpose that it be done... but that all believers are gifted with all the signs, with all the gifts of the Spirit... no, we know that isn't true because we are told in 1 Corinthians 12 that not all do prophesy or speak in tongues, etc.

It's available to everyone. If you think contrary, I will respectfully agree to disagree and would recommend listening or reading material from great men of God like Smiths Wigglesworth or Derek Prince.

Hi, Elijah here.
I am a Christian who also does indeed Love my Lord, & try to EAT up His Words. Matt. 4:4. 'i' say that because I want you to know that I do indeed believe all 66 Books as studied, to be my 'spiritual diet'.

My POINT being made is that of My Lord's prayer of.. 'Thy will be done'. (not my will numbering first place) Got that?? Total submission IS REQUIRED. And why not?? Because most of us do not hardly know enough to even come in out of the rain. (rain meaning conversations with known evil ones as seen in Gen. 3:1-5)

And what Born Again one would ask for a mt. per/say to be moved? or snake handeling??
See satans comment to Christ in Matt. 4:5-6 with an almost exact BIBLE QUOTE from Psalms 91:11. What was wrong with that tempting question?? And Christ's REPLY?? ibid 7 came from O.T. Deut. 6:16.

And the point??? ALL OF THE LORDS PROMISES PERTAINING TO SALVATION ARE SUBJECT TO HIS CONDITIONS! Acts 5:32 Requires total submission for being Born Again.

:o Elijah, I have no idea what you're saying. Not trying to sound rude, but it does not sound coherent at all.

 

[handy]

I don't disagree that gifts are available to everyone.

But, I think where the OP is seeking clarity is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12:29-31 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

The reason why Paul said this is that not all Christians manifest all gifts...

This is different than saying that the gifts are not available to everyone. They are. For instance, any Christian, you, I, Russell, Mike, can be protected from the venom of snakes if need be. Paul was so when shipwrecked on Malta... a poisonous snake bit him and he shook it off and went about his business... Mainly because he was doing what God was calling him to do at the time, and God provided protection for him.

Russell speaks of the possibility of a "different" faith... This is what I disagree with, that somehow Paul's faith is different than mine, because he was bit by a snake and wasn't affected by it's poison, but when I was bit by a very common, ordinary and not particularly venomous spider, I had to go to the ER for some shots because I started swelling, my heart started racing, and I was struggling to breathe. Turns out, in a general way in life, I'm allergic to spiders.

Jesus was speaking of when His people are fully engaged in His business... as Paul was when shipwrecked on Malta.

Jesus said, ""Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you."

Yet, Stephen succumbed to the stones of the Jews who stoned him... Ignatius records that the Romans beheaded Paul... fatal injuries both.

Why did Stephen and Paul die when and how they did? Because they lost the "gift of faith"... No. It was simply that their tour of duty was over and the Lord allowed them to come home. If that weren't the case then not all the rocks nor swords in all of the Empire could have harmed them.

In a general way, I'm allergic to spiders, whether their venom is considered dangerous or not. We can also include wasps and bees in this as well. However, should I ever be on a specific mission of our Lord's and a spider bites me, even if it's the biggest, baddest Black Widow in North America... it won't harm me... not while I'm doing the Lord's work.

Consider this: At Ephesus, Paul's healings were so well noted that handkerchiefs were carried from his body to the sick and the sick were healed. And yet, this very same Paul counseled Timothy to take wine to ease his stomach complaints... Timothy, the pastor at Ephesus!

It's not a matter of having a different gift of faith, nor not having "enough" faith... it's simply a matter of following God's will in any given situation. In the church, God wills that some be apostles, some prophesy, some speak in tongues and some interpret...but it's not His will that all do all these things all the time.

I think mainly because... in doing it this way... we are more dependent on Him and on each other.

 

[Elijah674]

It's available to everyone. If you think contrary, I will respectfully agree to disagree and would recommend listening or reading material from great men of God like Smiths Wigglesworth or Derek Prince.

:o Elijah, I have no idea what you're saying. Not trying to sound rude, but it does not sound coherent at all.

Hi! Perhaps 'i' do not understand this.. "gift of faith" Clarity ??
And you say this.. 'great men of God like Smiths Wigglesworth or Derek Prince'
Hey, 'i' have NO MORE AN IDEA of who these men were (or are) than I do you.

All that I was responding to below was the 'thought' on Faith. And I thought that if anyone had any faith, that this was right on target? (guess that I was wrong?)

originally Posted by Elijah674
Hi, Elijah here.
I am a Christian who also does indeed Love my Lord, & try to EAT up His Words. Matt. 4:4. 'i' say that because I want you to know that I do indeed believe all 66 Books as studied, to be my 'spiritual diet'.

My POINT being made is that of My Lord's prayer of.. 'Thy will be done'. (not my will numbering first place) Got that?? Total submission IS REQUIRED. And why not?? Because most of us do not hardly know enough to even come in out of the rain. (rain meaning conversations with known evil ones as seen in Gen. 3:1-5)

And what Born Again one would ask for a mt. per/say to be moved? or snake handeling??
See satans comment to Christ in Matt. 4:5-6 with an almost exact BIBLE QUOTE from Psalms 91:11. What was wrong with that tempting question?? And Christ's REPLY?? ibid 7 came from O.T. Deut. 6:16.

And the point??? ALL OF THE LORDS PROMISES PERTAINING TO SALVATION ARE SUBJECT TO HIS CONDITIONS! Acts 5:32 Requires total submission for being Born Again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ALL the gifts work by faith. Wherever you see a person walking in their gift, they are doing it according to the measure of faith that allows them to do that. Teachers teach to the extent their faith to minister in their calling and gifting gives them the confidence and assurance to do that. People who are hospitable do that to the extent their faith in God's calling and gifting gives them the confidence and assurance to do that. Evangelists preach the gospel to the extent their faith in their gifting and calling gives them the confidence and assurance..and so on.

I'm convinced that the person who has the 'gift' of faith...prays. People with the gift of faith are eager to seek God in prayer because they have very strong faith that God hears and answers the needs of his people. They believe God can do things, so they petition him in prayer for that which they know he can do. And they ask in the boldness of faith--the exact prerequisite for answered prayer (the main one anyway).

And they are the most humble of people. You won't catch them bragging about their gift. You'll have to start searching out-of-the-way prayer closets to find out who has this gift of faith that usually works in secret on behalf of the people of God. They love and care deeply for the needs of the people of God and they minister very privately but earnestly in great faith before God on the behalf of others. I'd be shocked if someone came forward and said, "I have that gift". They and God know it, and that's good enough for them.

God seems to have this principle that he won't do anything until someone comes into agreement with him for it...enter 'the gift of faith'. One day we'll know where this secret gift was hard at work in all the times where God miraculously intervened on our behalf to encourage us, or meet a physical need, keeping us strong to the end.

 

[Elijah674]

ALL the gifts work by faith. Wherever you see a person walking in their gift, they are doing it according to the measure of faith that allows them to do that. Teachers teach to the extent their faith to minister in their calling and gifting gives them the confidence and assurance to do that. People who are hospitable do that to the extent their faith in God's calling and gifting gives them the confidence and assurance to do that. Evangelists preach the gospel to the extent their faith in their gifting and calling gives them the confidence and assurance..and so on.

I'm convinced that the person who has the 'gift' of faith...prays. People with the gift of faith are eager to seek God in prayer because they have very strong faith that God hears and answers the needs of his people. They believe God can do things, so they petition him in prayer for that which they know he can do. And they ask in the boldness of faith--the exact prerequisite for answered prayer (the main one anyway).

And they are the most humble of people. You won't catch them bragging about their gift. You'll have to start searching out-of-the-way prayer closets to find out who has this gift of faith that usually works in secret on behalf of the people of God. They love and care deeply for the needs of the people of God and they minister very privately but earnestly in great faith before God on the behalf of others. I'd be shocked if someone came forward and said, "I have that gift". They and God know it, and that's good enough for them.

I have just one question then if it is as you post, Do these of Matt. 7 not fit in with your posting??

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
[27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
[29] For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have just one question then if it is as you post, Do these of Matt. 7 not fit in with your posting??

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
[27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
[29] For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

--Elijah

Which point in my post are you alluding to?

 

[Elijah674]

Which point in my post are you alluding to?

' I'm convinced that the person who has the 'gift' of faith...prays. People with the gift of faith are eager to seek God in prayer because they have very strong faith that God hears and answers the needs of his people. They believe God can do things, so they petition him in prayer for that which they know he can do. And they ask in the boldness of faith--the exact prerequisite for answered prayer (the main one anyway).'

[end of quote & in part only]

Elijah here:
While you are at it, do you not think that satan answers verbal prayers on his own? Such as the Rev. 17:1-5's large group.

Isa. 59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

And faith here surely finds prayer being believed if 'someone' answers the prayer??? Do you believe that there are two kinds of faith? Such as only believe & obedient working belief?

And note another scripture that you might explain?
1 Kings 22
[18] And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
[19] And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
[20] And the LORD said, Who shall [persuade] Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
[21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

So I guess what I am asking is about FAITH alone!? (if you follow my thinking?)
Based on James 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If Faith is a gift, then it appears that it was given from creation to all of mankind.

--Elijah

 

[Pizzaguy]

It's available to everyone. If you think contrary, I will respectfully agree to disagree and would recommend listening or reading material from great men of God like Smiths Wigglesworth or Derek Prince.

OH, so you aren't REALLY looking for clarity - but have your mind made up. You DO realize you are REAL close to becoming a troll because of this, right?

:o Elijah, I have no idea what you're saying. Not trying to sound rude, but it does not sound coherent at all.

We all have a hard time, at times, understanding Elijah. But in truth, THAT TIME, I followed him very easily. Read his post slowly, stopping to think at each comma or period.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While you are at it, do you not think that satan answers verbal prayers on his own?

That is another subject (and an interesting one at that). We're talking about a genuine gift of faith. A person doesn't need faith in God's calling and gifting to have God answer a person according to the idol they have in their heart (see Ezekiel 14).

Isa. 59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The hypothetical question of whether the gift of faith operates in a believer who is languishing in unrepentant sin is kind of a bunny trail right now. We're talking about what the gift of faith is to begin with, let alone whether or not someone can operate in it when they are overcome in sin, but still saved.

And faith here surely finds prayer being believed if 'someone' answers the prayer???

In the gift of faith the 'believing' happens first...not after you see that God answers.

Do you believe that there are two kinds of faith? Such as only believe & obedient working belief?

Insofar as the topic of this thread I believe there are two different things that believers have faith for. We all have faith in the blood of Jesus (that's what makes us believers). But we also have (varying) faith in regard to what God has commissioned each of us to do in the kingdom by virtue of our calling to a spiritual gift. So, it's not about 'belief only' vs. 'belief + works'. It's about faith in regard to a gifting and calling after you are born again by your faith in God's forgiveness.

And note another scripture that you might explain?
1 Kings 22
[18] And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
[19] And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
[20] And the LORD said, Who shall [persuade] Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
[21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

So I guess what I am asking is about FAITH alone!? (if you follow my thinking?)
Based on James 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

These passages are not relevant to this discussion. We're talking about the gift of faith that stirs a believer to pray fervently and effectively on behalf of the body, not the faith of salvation itself and how it moves us to personal obedience to God.

I'm guessing this is an example of someone with the gift of faith:

"Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured." (Colossians 4:12 NIV)

You can see--if this is indeed an example of someone with the gift of faith--that this has little to do with whether you have faith in Christ or not, but about a supernatural ability to believe God and petition Him fervently on behalf of other believers. And as handy pointed out, so there will be unity in the body as we learn to rely on what each member of the body contributes to the well being of the whole body.

If Faith is a gift, then it appears that it was given from creation to all of mankind.

Faith is always a gift, whether it's the faith to believe in Christ, or the faith connected with one's spiritual work of ministry. The 'gift of faith' is a particular gifting apart from the faith to believe that God will forgive you through Jesus Christ.

 

[Elijah674]

OH, so you aren't REALLY looking for clarity - but have your mind made up. You DO realize you are REAL close to becoming a troll because of this, right?



We all have a hard time, at times, understanding Elijah. But in truth, THAT TIME, I followed him very easily. Read his post slowly, stopping to think at each comma or period.

Hey, I am getting better, huh? But seriously, what I see on all boards, is that some on here are going in both.. 'opposite directions' in the faith department.

And I just do not buy into what some claim as faith. If where ever one claims miracles, there is a lot of emotion, excitement,(?) (+$$$) hollering, jumping around or whatever? (gibberish/jabber!) And this is called having faith??? I will never believe that being filled with the Holy Spirit causes one to stand around laughing at the person.

--Elijah

 

[Pizzaguy]

And I just do not buy into what some claim as faith. If where ever one claims miracles, there is a lot of emotion, excitement,(?) (+$$$) hollering, jumping around or whatever? (gibberish/jabber!) And this is called having faith???

--Elijah

I don't either, but in some churches, I think they call that "being moved by the spirit"...

I don't call it that, but some do.

 

[Elijah674]

I don't either, but in some churches, I think they call that "being moved by the spirit"...

I don't call it that, but some do.

We differ slightly on that perhaps? For there are different 's'pirits around.
--Elijah