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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
God makes some vessels unto honor, some unto dishonor-- are both God's elect?
- Thread starter Clover me
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Deborah13
Member
I didn't say anything about Pharaoh not being judged. Unless he turned to God I do not believe he was saved. I don't believe Judas was saved either.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No, only those who have faith in Christ are elected.
But I see the implication of thinking that election means being predetermined. If that's true then unbelievers are 'elected' in that sense too, then. Which I doubt anybody wants to defend.
Yes. But that, IMO, does not mean they were purposely predetermined to be that by God's choice alone. What it means to be prepared for destruction is, God, even though he knew before he made some people that they would reject him, in patience made them anyway.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
He will be judged according to what he has done.
His rejection of Christ is his responsibility. God used him to betray Christ knowing ahead of time that he would not believe in Christ.
What you are dealing with is the "double predestination" heresy. It says "if some are elect to eternal life, then others are also predesignated for hell."
Logically, the Christian should look at the fact of his election before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and ask in awe, "Why ME, Lord?" That is to acknowledge the totality of our inability to do one thing pleasing unto God, and the fact that He picked us up from the swine sty, and redeemed us for no other reason other than the fact that He loves us unconditionally.
Just like Pharaoh of old in Exodus, we do have the free will to reject God; and then I believe that, God "greases the rails that we choose". So then it is not an "either/or" dilemma, but I believe that it is a "both/and" sort of situation whereby the redeemed saint praises God in awe and in wonderment for his salvation, and at the same time has a deep passion for those who have not heard of, or rejects the free offer of salvation.
Salvation is nothing for which one can be proud because there is nothing any man did to redeem himself. Indeed, feeling proud of being saved may be an indication of NOT being saved.
Hope that you find this helpful.
Deborah13
Member
Doulos Iesou
Member
You have to recognize that this Chapter is all about Israel and dealing with God's faithfulness to his Word in light of their rejection of the Messiah.
This passage is quoting Jeremiah's analogy of God being the potter and ISRAEL being the clay, and here he is saying that will take from the same lump (a key phrase) two different vessels. One would be used in dishonor, namely by their rejection the gospel would sent to the Gentiles in order that God might have mercy on all, and the other lump would be used as chosen remnant to bring that gospel to them, of which Paul was apart of... the Apostles who brought the ministry of reconciliation to the world.
When you twist this text to refer to all humanity, as if God was setting up two different groups to a predetermined end, it doesn't fit at all with the wider context of Romans 9-11 and it turns God into the master puppeteer pulling and twisting the strings so that HE would get the glory.
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Romans 9:22 (NASB)
Although God was willing to demonstrate his wrath and make known his power, but instead showed patience towards the people of Israel despite the fact that they were prepared (ripe or fit) for destruction. They deserved his wrath for rejecting the Messiah, but he endured them in patience in order to make known the riches of his mercy upon these other vessels.. the Gentiles!
This is one of the most important themes in all of Paul's writings, that the inclusion of the Gentiles into Covenant with God has been predestined and was even told to Abraham when he was told that all the nations of the world would be blessed in him.
Deborah13
Member
Doulos Iesou Good explanation.
Clover me
Member
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth 2 Timothy 2:25-26
I like the quote you have at the bottom of your post. 2 Timothy 2:25-26. I need to learn to be "patient when wronged".
Doulos Iesou
Member
Thanks, I used to be a Calvinist so I understand the misconceptions that many of them have and how to read these texts within the proper framework.
Danus
Member
This verse Romans 9:21 is dealing with Gods "sovereign choice". it's part of a group of verses 6 - 21. You can't just look at 21 without reading 6 to 21, because if you do you'll take 21 out of context.
If you read all of this context Romans 6 to 21, it should be clear that Paul is saying God chooses whom He will Choose by and for His own sovereign right and Good pleasure to do so.
Many people have a problem with this because they want to feel that they come to God and Choose their own salvation. they make all the right choices and so they credirt themselves for their own salvation, when in fact it's God, not us who chooses whom he will choose.
Verses 1-5 in Romans 9 are dealing with Paul's Anguish over Israel, and then 6-21 God's sovereign choice, which continues a bit more in Romans 10.
In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.- Proverbs 16:9.
We may make our own steps, and we are free to do that, but we need to know who is ultimately in control in our steping.
The LORD makes firm the steps of the one who delights in him - Psalms 37:23
There are many more examples in the bible like these that clearly speak on Gods full sovereignty and His complete power and control.
Romans 9:6-21
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
If you're struggling with the idea of salvation being Gods choice and not yours, realize that with out Gods choice NO ONE is saved. All are condemned to eternal hell and separation from God on our own. It's only because of God that anyone is saved.
Also, we are called to make our salvation sure; 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, - 2 Peter 1:10 We are made sure, and strong in our salvation, in our faith, in the Christian life.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The problem with this is you are saying God did the believing--the trusting--for everyone who is saved. What he does is give man the supernatural ability to know the gospel is true (aka, faith) so we can then exercise our conscious will to place our trust--our believing--in that which God has graciously made known to us to be true.
It's not hard to reconcile man's conscious choice to choose the gospel with God's choice to make the opportunity to do that available to man--and still not give the credit for salvation to man.
Salvation is like healing. We can't heal ourselves, but we can choose to accept that which can heal us, if and when it is graciously made available to us. We exercise our will to be healed, while that which heals gets all the credit. And we get full credit for refusing that which has been provided to us to be healed. Healing/salvation is a free gift. Refusing to be healed/saved earns you exactly the cost of refusing that healing.
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Deborah13
Member
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling [invitation] and election[choice] sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
God gives an invitation, when we accept the invitation then we are in Christ and through Him become one of the elect. Jesus, the Chosen [Elect] One.
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen [elected]; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Where is the pride in knowing I'm not the chosen one, the one seed, the righteous one, and not the one the promises were made to.
So in order for me to receive the promises I have to be righteous, a seed, and chosen but there isn't anywhere it says I'm righteous, or that I'm a seed, or that I'm chosen. But it says that if I am 'in Christ' then I share in these things that He is and only He is.
God gives an invitation, when we accept the invitation then we are in Christ and through Him become one of the elect. Jesus, the Chosen [Elect] One.
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen [elected]; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Where is the pride in knowing I'm not the chosen one, the one seed, the righteous one, and not the one the promises were made to.
So in order for me to receive the promises I have to be righteous, a seed, and chosen but there isn't anywhere it says I'm righteous, or that I'm a seed, or that I'm chosen. But it says that if I am 'in Christ' then I share in these things that He is and only He is.
Dear brother in Christ Clover me, Judas as the son of perdition was never born of God, and though he was used of God, so was Pharaoh of Egypt to show Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth, and John 17:12 . . none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Their ungodly works were known unto God before the foundation of the world and used accordingly, just as believer’s work shown in Christ were known to God beforehand and we were predestinated unto good works as the result of Christ’s ongoing work in us.
Regardless one’s work in the outcome of God’s prophesy, judgment is metered out as to whether we believed or not believed in Christ as our Savior. As believers Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God, and Romans 8:1 tells us there is no condemnation, and we will receive reward for things done in the body, but to those not in Christ are to stand and be judged one day according to their wicked works at the Great White Throne. Rev 20:11.
Why do you go bit hard? Both Pharoah and Judas had chance of repentance before their death. It is as simple as that
Oh that that was so and they would have repented, because Jesus certainly loved and died for them too, but Pharaoh was resolute in his purpose of destroying Israel despite of God's interaction with him, and Judas was said of being lost
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (Speaking of Judas)
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
One meaning in Strong's Perdition - the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.
Clover me
Member
God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It seems like Pharaoh had no choice which does not make sense to me.