God ~ The Holy Spirit

[DM]

Scorpia was isolating this comment that I made, "And so, like you (Veritas), I seek the wisdom of God through the pages of Scripture" - and Scorpia responded in part with, ". . . This is a very simple way of turning away from God - to have a substitute in the stead of God the Almighty".

I understand the point that you're suggesting Scorpia, but what I was saying to Veritas wasn't intended as a "blanket" statement about everything in spiritual matters. I need to clarify, that my statement is in the context of the discussions on this thread. To find out whether or not the "Holy Spirit" is (or isn't) "God", where can one turn but to the Scriptures?

Scorpia seems to give credit to the Scriptures as being useful for one thing, and one thing only. Specifically, that the Scriptures ". . . testify to us that there is really God whom we can call on at any time". Once this discovery is made, Scorpia seems to suggest that a subsequent abandoning of the Scriptures becomes necessary in order to figure out who this God is. This is a gnostic approach. Veritas very astutely noted that Scorpias philosophy necessitates questioning the validity of such a message. Is Scorpia an inspired (in-spirit-ed) prophet of God? If the words of Scripture do nothing but "testify to us that there is really God", and after that can do nothing more . . . then the only avenue to follow would be the one that Scorpia seems to be advocating.

On the other hand, if the Scriptures are useful for more than this, then indeed what we find is that, "the word was (and is) God". What God has revealed to mankind has been revealed through His "word" (Greek = logos). "The word" being, not the Bible per se, but rather the biblical message itself - which "is able to make you wise unto salvation" (cf. 2 Timothy 3:15)

In Christian love,
David

 

[stranger]

scorpia wrote:
Wisdom of God comes directly from God himself because God is real and alive and He does exist in His own ways. The scripture is not the Lord God and it cannot teach us any absolute and clear fact about God and His wisdom except for one, to testify to us that there is really God whom we can call on at any time. If any one wants wisdom from God, let him come directly to God and ask from God such wisdom, why seek same from the scripture which is not God? This is a very simple way of turning away from God - to have a substitute in the stead of God the Almighty.

Anything can become an idol - when it's the bible it has been called 'bibliolatry'. There is no doubt that this twist is a deadly one as can be seen by our Lord's opposition to the scribes and pharisees. Nevertheless the word of God is the word of God and it is a record of the ways in which God has not only spoken but revealed Himself to us - it is the revelation itself as well as a record of it.

It is also referred to as the sword of the Spirit - and when you come face to face with the demonic - with what armour and weapon are you going to fight with? The word has other benefits but yes it can and has been misused - the biggest misuse I think is pursuing the knowledge of God via the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yet another gripe God has with His people is that do not often 'know His ways'. They can be insensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit - and certainly would be if if they 'haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit'. Keep well.

blessings: stranger

 

[stranger]

Gabby - ah . . . analogy. A great place to start!

Consider this. I (Ed) am body soul and spirit. A trinity if you like.

So, when speaking of my spirit, you could say, ‘this is the spirit of Ed.’ Similarly, you can speak of my soul and my body. So, these three, together, make Ed.
Now, would it be right to take just one of these components and say, ‘this is Ed’. So when speaking of my spirit should you say, ‘this IS Ed’ or should you say, ‘this is the spirit OF Ed.’

And in like manner, what should we say of the spirit of God? Is it right to say, ‘the spirit IS God’, perhaps ‘God the Spirit’ or should we say, ‘the spirit OF God.’?

And this is where this analogy takes on a beautiful dimension.

Although my spirit is not me, it actually does represent me because it reflects who I am. And this is why, when speaking of my spirit, it is referred to in first person.
When my spirit is grieved. I am grieved.
When my spirit is joyful. I am joyful.
When my spirit is lied to. I am lied to.

Your thoughts so far?

Hi mutzrein,

Your post presented an interesting analogy with tripartite man: body, soul and spirit. To my satisfaction no one has ever explained the difference, if there is one, between 'soul and spirit'. I have seen the dictionary definitions and countless examples but the place where life resides is a mystery.

In so far as we are made in God's image I would expect a lot of Him reflected in us. But I would also say I am more like you than God and you are more like me. There is a quaint verse in Jeremiah where God says: you thought that I was just like you. There is also another quaint verse in Acts 19:2 'we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit . . ' While we do not know 'what the content of the faith of these unnamed disciples included' we do know what their faith excluded, namely being baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus, and after Paul laid hands on them receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and prophesying.

While these disciples were tripartite men before encountering the Apostle they were not the same tripartite men after receiving the Holy Spirit.

blessings: stranger

 

[Veritas]

Thanks DM and stranger for bringing some very interesting things up...

I was thinking about what "Word of God" really means, and what you've both said really got me thinking. I did a bit of research in Strong's concordance.

There are two types of "Word of God" specified in the Bible.

1.) written scriptures in the Bible (also Jesus) - Logos

2.) spoken word of God - Rhema

DM brought up the written scriptures. And I agree that they are the written revelation of God to humanity. Now I'm just trying to figure out what I meant by saying that I think "God himself is not the Bible" (Maybe that I don't think of the Bible as an idol?). Because I do believe that Jesus is the literal embodiment of God's word (John 1:1-5,14)

Anyways, stranger brought up the spoken word (sword of the Spirit)

"Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Ephesians 6:17

Rhema is used there. So, the sword is formed simply by speaking God's word! That also must be why sometimes when we read a verse it "speaks" directly to the situation we are dealing with.

 

[DM]

Veritas pointed out Ephesians 6:17's reference to ". . . the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

The use of the word "sword" as a metaphor for "the Spirit", sometimes obscures the fact that it is "the Spirit", which is, "the word of God". My reason for concluding that is by looking at a metaphor which very nearly precedes it - namely, "the shield of faith" found in verse 16. It is "faith" which is "able to extinguish". The word "shield" is a metaphor used in describing the idea. Faith, of course, isn't a literal "shield" and the word of God isn't a literal "sword".

That the two terms are found so closely related, though, is worth taking notice. In John 3:34 this tie between "the Spirit" and "the word of God" is compelling.

John 3:34 "For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure."

In other words, speaking (which requires, quite literally, "breathing out") the word of God, is based on God giving "the Spirit" (which means "breath") in order to do that. When God "speaks", He (metaphorically speaking) "breathes". Just as speech exiting the speaker has literal "breath" (spirit) propelling it out, so inhaling that "spirit" is to "believe" in the heart/mind of the hearer.

This also makes sense of passages like Ephesians 4:23, where we're told to be "renewed in the spirit of your mind". The "spirit of your mind" is, I believe, a willing mind that is influenced and animated by the Spirit (breath) of God.

In Christian love,
David

 

[scorpia]

Actually Scorpia - I cannot find the scripture that says what you have quoted 'as per the bible account'. What passage of the bible are you referring to?

I did not say why did the Lord say but instead "why did not the Lord say" or why did the Lord say not, meaning there is really nothing that the Lord said in the bible "I and the Father and the HS are One" hence why say the HS is God?

 

[scorpia]

Nevertheless the word of God is the word of God and it is a record of the ways in which God has not only spoken but revealed Himself to us

To us or to them in those biblical times? Unless God speaks with us today in the same way as He did to the biblical people, then and there that you can only say your phrase "to us".

[quote:c42d2]
- it is the revelation itself as well as a record of it.

Revelation to those whom the Lord had spoken to during those time but in our time today, it is only a testimony for us that there is really God existing in all times. We have to call on/come to that God for us to have a direct revealation from Him, too. Moreover, it is a jig saw puzzle to many hence this never ending argument about who and what is God.

It is also referred to as the sword of the Spirit - and when you come face to face with the demonic - with what armour and weapon are you going to fight with?

[/quote:c42d2]

The Lord reveals and says today:

"Keep in your mind that in My Second coming, many will call to Me saying, Lord, Lord, didn’t we do powerful works and in your name we cast out devils, we did healing. But keep in your mind, I will say to them, never at any time do I know you, I do not know you at any time, those of you who are habitual workers of iniquity, those of you who are casting out devils. Keep in your mind that if you cast out devils, you are snatching away the title role which properly belongs to Me only. If there is anyone being possessed with by demon that you may encounter, you should only pray to Me and in that manner I Am ready to hear your prayer and I will hear your every plea that you will whisper to Me, that you will shout at, that you will pray to. I will help you and I will never forsake you at any time much more to those people who are with Me and who follow Me."

 

[mutzrein]

I did not say why did the Lord say but instead "why did not the Lord say" or why did the Lord say not, meaning there is really nothing that the Lord said in the bible "I and the Father and the HS are One" hence why say the HS is God?

My mistake - sorry. : I thought it was a grammatical error on your part since English is not your first language.

May I clarify then what you are saying. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is NOT God but Jesus is?

 

[scorpia]

I understand the point that you're suggesting Scorpia, but what I was saying to Veritas wasn't intended as a "blanket" statement about everything in spiritual matters. I need to clarify, that my statement is in the context of the discussions on this thread. To find out whether or not the "Holy Spirit" is (or isn't) "God", where can one turn but to the Scriptures?

Whether we isolate the issue, still the point remains valid, why? See this specific issue of resolving whether the Holy Spirit is God or not, why turn to the scripture when it is not the Lord God who can lead us to the truth of the topic at issue at the moment? Should you do that, it is not God himself who is telling the truth but is is only you who is telling us of what is your take on the passages of the bible. We do need God's intervention in this discussion for all of us to see the light of the truth and that is absolute.

[quote:98966]Scorpia seems to give credit to the Scriptures as being useful for one thing, and one thing only. Specifically, that the Scriptures ". . . testify to us that there is really God whom we can call on at any time". Once this discovery is made, Scorpia seems to suggest that a subsequent abandoning of the Scriptures becomes necessary in order to figure out who this God is.

Why put something into my mouth? Did I say to anyone abandon the scripture? What I am implying is that when you find God in your life, there is the point that you will know many things about God and your salvation and your eternal life which the bible cannot teach you specifically and absolutely.

This is a gnostic approach. Veritas very astutely noted that Scorpias philosophy necessitates questioning the validity of such a message.

There is nothing wrong asking God for the truth behind those that are written in the bible. And the more that God likes it asking Him for what is really the truth behind the bible rather than believing what is written in the bible in accordance to one's understanding and without any confirmation from God's himself.

Is Scorpia an inspired (in-spirit-ed) prophet of God?

I tell you guys we are under the direct tutelage of the Lord Jesus Christ and by what manner you may take it, it all depends on you.

If the words of Scripture do nothing but "testify to us that there is really God", and after that can do nothing more . . .

It can only does nothing more should you remain hard headed in not calling on and coming to God. You will continue to be living on your own miles and miles apart from the truth coming directly from the true, alive, and real God of all ages.

then the only avenue to follow would be the one that Scorpia seems to be advocating.

To live and sup with God as in the days of the biblical times, nothing less.

On the other hand, if the Scriptures are useful for more than this, then indeed what we find is that, "the word was (and is) God".

Hence people end up in different denominations with divisive and argumentative doctrines and teachings instead of finding peace in the hands of the Almighty God.

What God has revealed to mankind has been revealed through His "word" (Greek = logos). "The word" being, not the Bible per se, but rather the biblical message itself - which "is able to make you wise unto salvation" (cf. 2 Timothy 3:15)

[/quote:98966]

Only God can give the salvation and eternal life that all needs in our life.

 

[scorpia]

May I clarify then what you are saying. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is NOT God but Jesus is?

Indeed, yeah the HS is not God because the Lord taught us that He created the HS in the same way as He created other spirit beings and none of these spirit beings and us have seen God even up to this time, not until after the judgment day.

 

[scorpia]

I know God himself is not the scripture, but it is, after all, His Word. I know it to be trustworthy.

Only God himself is the trustworthy One, no more no less.

[quote:e8822]
I have nothing against you, but how can I trust your word?

Call on and come to God and that's the best thing that you can do in your life. Forget all about me, just talk to God.

Alot of people claim revelation.

Make yourself open to all of them and seek the guidance of God in knowing who really tells the truth.

If your ideas line up with the Bible then I can trust what you say about this

.

Your are trusting the bible and not the Lord God (as He truly exists) in your statement.

I know and believe that God can and does speak to us in dreams, that is in Scripture.

Believe God in the reality of His existence and outside the bounds of your present and own understanding.

I just get a little nervous with the terms "spirit being" and "dream" are used together; it sounds like New Age stuff to me.

[/quote:e8822]

Nervous has no space nor room in the minds of those whose Teacher and Good Pastor is the Lord. The more that you have to come to God this time so that your nervous may be washed away by the direct teachings of the Lord to you. Same could not be washed away by the bible on the other hand.

 

[mutzrein]

Hi mutzrein,

Your post presented an interesting analogy with tripartite man: body, soul and spirit. To my satisfaction no one has ever explained the difference, if there is one, between 'soul and spirit'. I have seen the dictionary definitions and countless examples but the place where life resides is a mystery.

In so far as we are made in God's image I would expect a lot of Him reflected in us. But I would also say I am more like you than God and you are more like me. There is a quaint verse in Jeremiah where God says: you thought that I was just like you. There is also another quaint verse in Acts 19:2 'we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit . . ' While we do not know 'what the content of the faith of these unnamed disciples included' we do know what their faith excluded, namely being baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus, and after Paul laid hands on them receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and prophesying.

While these disciples were tripartite men before encountering the Apostle they were not the same tripartite men after receiving the Holy Spirit.

blessings: stranger

Yes I definitely differentiate between the soul and spirit.

To me, it is the spirit that gives man life and the soul which is his centre of emotion - for want of a better description. Furthermore I do not believe that man is born with a spirit so I don’t see him as a tripartite being at birth. He becomes a tripartite being when and if he is born of the spirit (born again).

I read scripture almost as a parable in the sense that it speaks of two different ‘births’ and contrasts the two almost from beginning to end. One is of the flesh, the other is of the spirit. One is temporal, the other is eternal.

In Genesis there is two different accounts of man’s ‘creation’. One is being formed from the dust of the earth and the other being made in God’s image. So to me, one is of the flesh. The other of the spirit. One is earthly and therefore temporal. The other is of the Spirit and therefore eternal.

As for the disciples being tripartite men, they were only so after receiving the Holy Spirit which was the birth of their spirit.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Yes I definitely differentiate between the soul and spirit.

I agree with you on this one. Body soul and spirit. I think body is pretty much self explanatory.

Soul is the difference between a dead body and a live one. (Pardon me for being so morbid) Whether you are a Christian or a poor lost soul not yet saved, or a wicked evil person who never will be saved, you have a soul.

Spirit. That is what God breathed into Adam when he was created. That is what died in Adam the day Adam sinned. That is what enters into a Christian when they become born again.
There is a spirit realm, angels, demons, etc. And it is possible for a person to become possessed with a spirit or spirits not their own. Notice that when Jesus delivered people, he cast out spirits, not souls.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:9 speaks of the Spirit of God dwelling in you. It also refers to the Spirit of Christ. Can this be two spirits? Is it THE Holy Spirit?

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

If you are the temple of God, then it is God in you. The Holy Spirit? 1 Cor. 6:19 says that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you. If the Holy Spirit is not God, how can these two verses be true?

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then tell me this: Is He = < or > than God? Is He = < or > than Jesus Christ? If the Holy Spirit something other than God, then who is He? A created being? Perfect?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

God dwelleth in him? Interesting. So...is God indeed the Holy Spirit?

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe we have all three God-Heads in us, and therefore the Holy Spirit is God. Do I understand it? No. But will some day when I am in heaven.




May God bless Golfjack

 

[mutzrein]

I agree with you on this one. Body soul and spirit. I think body is pretty much self explanatory.

Soul is the difference between a dead body and a live one. (Pardon me for being so morbid) Whether you are a Christian or a poor lost soul not yet saved, or a wicked evil person who never will be saved, you have a soul.

Spirit. That is what God breathed into Adam when he was created. That is what died in Adam the day Adam sinned. That is what enters into a Christian when they become born again.
There is a spirit realm, angels, demons, etc. And it is possible for a person to become possessed with a spirit or spirits not their own. Notice that when Jesus delivered people, he cast out spirits, not souls.

Hi Gabby - have just been going back over a few old posts.

I find no evidence in scripture for the spirit being breathed into man at creation. Man received the breath of life . . . and so did the animals. So there is no differentiation between man and beast with respect to a 'spirit'.

Adam died, not because his spirit died, but because he was barred from the tree of life. Up to that point he could partake of any tree but at the point at which he disobeyed God, no longer could he have eternal life. So, in effect he died.

Yes - man can be (and I have known of instances of it) possessed by evil demonic spirits. These spirits do not inhabit a person's spirit, but an empty vessel - ie one in which there is no spirit (including animals) - meaning they are not born of the Spirit. You see, it is impossible for one who is born of the Spirit to be possessed by an evil spirit.

It is a fallacy therefore to say that any Christian can have (and therefore needs deliverance from) an evil spirit. If the person is a Christian, they are born again - and therefore it is impossible for them to be possessed. If however, they are possessed, they are plainly not born again and therefore not a christian.

 

[Imagican]

WOW, missed this one somehow.

I'll bite though.........

The Holy Spirit in MY understanding is NOT a 'person' as 'trinitarians' teach. The Holy Spirit IS The 'Spirit of God'. NO, NOT God Himself. A 'part' of God, but placed in the hearts of those that accept Christ AS their Savior.

This is the WHAT 'being born again' actually IS. Baptism that 'matters' IS baptism of The Spirit. To be 'born INTO Spirit', you might say.

Look gabby, EVERYTHING that we kNOW of that exists; EVERYTHING!!!! IS a 'part' of God. Now, PLEASE don't think that I mean concepts and ideas. I refer to that which has 'been Created' moreso than that which has been 'devised'. There IS a 'difference'.

So, with this in mind, Christ, The Holy Spirit, man, woman, trees, animals, the sun, the moon, the stars; ALL are a 'part' of God Himself. These things CAME FROM 'something' and that 'something' IS God. The material, the energy, ALL of it 'steming' from Our Creator.

God does His WORK through The Holy Spirit. Christ's offered The Word, and God supplied The Spirit to convict us OF HIS WORD.

So, I don't NEED to 'think up' such discriptions of 'three persons', and such, to understand what I NEED to know. I NEED NOT know EVERYTHING concerning God in order to KNOW HIM. Some are not 'satisfied' withOUT KNOWING, (or creating a 'definition of'), EVERYTHING in order to be 'satisfied' that their 'beliefs' are verified within their OWN hearts. This would ELIMINATE the NEED for 'faith'. For 'faith' is that which IS accepted WITHOUT any 'physical proof'. That which CAN'T be 'seen', yet accepted ANYWAY. To have 'man or men' sit down and come up with a 'definition' takes the 'faith' away and gives 'those that follow these', PROOF of what is taught through their very definitions through words themselves.

This 'three persons' in ONE God has NEVER been offered through scripture REGARDLESS of those that 'claim' that it has been 'revealed THROUGH' scripture. And I'm sure that Jim Jones used scripture to 'lure' in those that he murdered. I can guarantee you that HE USED SCRIPTURE to 'teach' these people HIS DEFINITIONS of what HE wanted them to 'believe'.

And to this I offer; "Beware" of 'those that you 'choose' to FOLLOW. Instead of 'following ANY man or men' I would offer that one SHOULD place their faith in GOD ALONE. Remembering Christ and what He offered and accepting the conviction of The Holy Spirit, but accepting that it ALL is in the HANDS OF GOD (including Christ who RIGHT NOW SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD).

MEC

 

[Easyrider]

WOW, missed this one somehow.

I'll bite though.........

The Holy Spirit in MY understanding is NOT a 'person' as 'trinitarians' teach. The Holy Spirit IS The 'Spirit of God'. NO, NOT God Himself. A 'part' of God, but placed in the hearts of those that accept Christ AS their Savior. MEC

Jesus calls the Holy Sprit "He" in John chapter 14, not "it." In addition there's the following:

While in Genesis 1:2 we see the "Spirit of God" moving upon the face of the waters during creation (remember God as "Elohim," a plural creator), there is a very important and often overlooked verse in which the prophet Isaiah reveals that the Holy Spirit is more than just some type of spiritual force. Isaiah 63:10 reads,

"But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them."

The word "vexed," as used above, is the Hebrew word "atsab," which means "to worry, pain, or anger; to grieve, hurt, or make sorry" (Zodhiates Old Testament Word Study - Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary section, page 91). The question, of course, is "How can some inanimate force be angered or grieved, as we see occurred in the above passage? Only if the Holy Spirit was alive and possessed personal attributes could He experience these types of emotions." The Holy Spirit must therefore be a person.

Another important verse that shows that the Holy Spirit is one of the "Creators" is found in Job 33:4, which reads,

"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
hath given me life."

Obviously, the Holy Spirit must possess intelligence in order to take part in the creative process. Other "personal" attributes of the Holy Spirit are as follows:

1. The Holy Spirit "testifies" (Nehemiah 9:30).
2. The Spirit "instructs" (Nehemiah 9:20).
3. The Spirit "strives with men" (Genesis 6:3).
4. The Spirit sends messengers (Isaiah 48:16).
5. The Spirit enabled Joseph to interpret Pharoah's dreams (Genesis 41:38).
6. The Spirit gives wisdom (Exodus 28:3; 31:1-6; 35:31).
7. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" (Isaiah 11:2).
8. He is the Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2)

Notice clearly that all of the things that the Holy Spirit does requires intelligence of the variety that only God alone can possess. This ties God and the Holy Spirit together in a most closely-knit and inseparable unity.

Then, of course you have Ephesiams 4:30 - ‘Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’ Can some inanimate "force" be grieved?

Finally, the Holy Spirit is identified as God in Acts chapter 5, i.e.

3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

There's more, but that gives a solid foundation for the Holy Spirit being not only a person, but God Himself - the Third Person of the Godhead.

 

[Easyrider]

This 'three persons' in ONE God has NEVER been offered through scripture REGARDLESS of those that 'claim' that it has been 'revealed THROUGH' scripture. And I'm sure that Jim Jones used scripture to 'lure' in those that he murdered.

MEC

It's been offered up with numerous Scriptural references for centuries.Just go to Yahoo and type in the Trinity in Scripture for any number of articles.

As for Jim Jones, anyone can pick and choose Scripture, or twist it (ala Satan) to mislead people. But taken as a whole, and scrutinized by those who are true students of it, these twists don't hold up to close examinations. You can probably take Moby Dick and build a false theology out of it.