heaven or hell

[reznwerks]

For those of you that believe in heaven/ hell and judgement in general what is the tipping point to go to one or the other? Here is the souce of the question which came from another site.

"I had a good friend whose good Christian father left for another woman and a good Christian judge didn't require him to pay much in alimony or child support. As a result, my friend's mother was always struggling financially. One day, she left two hundred dollars in twenties in the kitchen to pay a debt to someone. My friend stole the money and then helped his frantic mother search the house for it later.

I was horrified when my friend told me this. I said aren't you worried that you'll go to Hell. He shook his head and said there was no way he would go to Hell for this. He admitted what he had done was really bad and then proceeded to tell me that there was a line you had to cross before you would be sent to Hell. Even though this was bad there was no way he had crossed that line, and that the good he does far outweighs any bad.

I lay awake that night thinking about this metaphorical line. How did God determine who went to Heaven and who went to Hell? Could one extra lie in your lifetime be the difference between an eternity of bliss or an eternity of torment? If so, wasn't a person who died young at an advantage because they had less time to sin? Maybe, God uses a Judgment Point Average (JPA). Each sin has a number of points associated with it. He adds up these points and then divides by the number of sins. Again, however, one point could be the difference between Heaven and Hell. This just didn't seem fair."

 

[ttg]

I would refer anyone asking about this to explore here:

WHY MORTAL AND VENIAL SINS

By Mark P. Shea



This Rock
Volume 6, Number 5
May 1995



WHEN I was an Evangelical, one of the arguments I read against Catholic moral theology was that the concepts of mortal and venial sin are unbiblical. Sin is sin, say Evangelicals, and there's no good in trying to make out some sins as "minor." To us Evangelicals such nice distinctions smelled a great deal like rationalization and looked like an escape clause from the commandment "Be holy, for I, the Lord, am Holy."

After all, James wrote, "Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker" (Jas. 2:10-11). So the forthright and honest Evangelical attitude was "We'll take our forgiveness straight, thanks! Let's have no plea-bargaining at the foot of the cross."

Such an attitude to purity before God is, I think, entirely commendable. Truth to tell, it contrasts favorably with the lax Catholics who really do say "It's just a teensy-weensy little sin" as an excuse for doing whatever they like. Such Catholics need to be reminded that "Whoever can be trusted with a teensy-weensy little thing can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with a teensy-weensy little thing will also be dishonest with much" (Luke 16:10, more or less).


the rest: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea4.asp

 

[Lewis]

I would refer anyone asking about this to explore here:

WHY MORTAL AND VENIAL SINS

By Mark P. Shea



This Rock
Volume 6, Number 5
May 1995



WHEN I was an Evangelical, one of the arguments I read against Catholic moral theology was that the concepts of mortal and venial sin are unbiblical. Sin is sin, say Evangelicals, and there's no good in trying to make out some sins as "minor." To us Evangelicals such nice distinctions smelled a great deal like rationalization and looked like an escape clause from the commandment "Be holy, for I, the Lord, am Holy."

After all, James wrote, "Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker" (Jas. 2:10-11). So the forthright and honest Evangelical attitude was "We'll take our forgiveness straight, thanks! Let's have no plea-bargaining at the foot of the cross."

Such an attitude to purity before God is, I think, entirely commendable. Truth to tell, it contrasts favorably with the lax Catholics who really do say "It's just a teensy-weensy little sin" as an excuse for doing whatever they like. Such Catholics need to be reminded that "Whoever can be trusted with a teensy-weensy little thing can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with a teensy-weensy little thing will also be dishonest with much" (Luke 16:10, more or less).


the rest: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea4.asp

He He

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Interesting article ttg.

 

[Sothenes]

God doesn't grade on a curve.

 

[reznwerks]

curve

God doesn't grade on a curve.

Considering your statement and the one by ttg which he correctly quoted from the bible that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God does the inverse hold true that God would then have to judge you based on your effort?Otherwise your efforts are futile. As I see it you have two possible responses and one is that believers are saved based on Christs death. Then if that is true no real effort to remain sinless is needed. The other only possible answer is that God will have to judge you based on effort. Since everyones life experience and make up is different this would seem very unfair.

 

[ArtGuy]

There is a difference between what one has to do to be allowed into heaven, and what one has to do to be a good Christian. Much in the same way that there's a difference between what you have to do to be a good son, and what you have to do to avoid being completely disowned by your parents.

All you need to do to enter heaven is to accept Jesus as your savior. You can still be a complete jerk and be allowed to enter heaven, much as that may not appear "fair" to our limited understanding of sin and justice. Once we get to heaven, we're cleared of all sins great and small, and we gain the ability to live completely sin-free alongside God.

 

[jgredline]

Here is an interesting article that quite frankly saddens me.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/193/story_19359_1.html
By the way, If as simple as it sounds, Jesus is the only way. If your friend does not place his faith in Jesus he will go to hell. Jesus also said you can tell a tree by its fruit. A good tree will bare good fruit and a bad tree will bare bad fruit.

 

[stovebolts]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Just what does this mean? What exactly is the "Glory" of God?

first, IN CONTEXT: for ALL have sinned. Who is Paul speaking about? First is the Jews (Romans 1) Second is the Gentiles (Romans 2) and then we summerize with ALL (Romans 3) wich is Jews and Gentiles.

Ok, so both Jews and Gentiles sin... Nothing new here. But most people stop here and miss out on what the Glory of God is. What is the Glory of God? Lets look at this word Glory.

doxa
Search for G1391 in KJVSL
doxa doxa dox'-ah

from the base of 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):--dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

For an endepth explanation of doxa, check out
http://www.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0001201

There is only one word in the Greek that is translated as either Glory or Honor. This doxa is that one word.

Most view this verse as missing out what God has to give to us, but I say that another perspective might be what we can give to God.

God is worthy of all praise and honor because he is a rightouse God. When our face is turned toward God, we honor God. When God's face is turned toward us, we are blessed.
Likewise, when we turn our faces from God, we shame God. When God's face is turned from us, he shames us.

YLT
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory [doxa, honor] of his strength,

 

[ChristineES]

You have to be sorry for a sin and repent of it before God will forgive it. Sure we all sin, but we don't do mean things to people and then feel we are all right because Jesus died for us, a true Christian would never do that (no matter what anyone says). The story does illustrate one thing to me, that many people are mislead and I am more sorry for them than I am of an atheist. :o

 

[lovely]

It is all based on the blood of Christ, He is all that can save you. Nothing you can do can cross any line. There is no line, there is a gap, and it is bridged by the cross of Calvary.

Our efforts are a result of our belief, and simply to please God with our life ( a living sacrifice), and to comform to the image of Christ. This is the part where you deny yourself. Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments" John14:15. This is the result, and action, of the love a believer has for God. The Bible says that the fruits are how you know them (believers). I believe that this is in different degrees for every believer based on how much growth (bearing fruit) has taken place during God's sanctification of their life.

Everything we do for Christ will last, and we can be a light to others who would receive the Gospel. I will look up those who have prayed for me, and taught me the Gospel, and thank them, with my whole heart, when I am there in Heaven. And, I will spend an eternity thanking God, and relishing that I am with Him. This is everlasting work of God, these works. This is our treasure laid up in Heaven, these good works, and efforts on behalf of Christ, but they do not save us, and they are only done on Christ's behalf after salvation.

Paul tells us that we do not continue in Sin, and take advantage of God's grace, because we are dead to Sin. This is a result of having life in Christ. If we are doing such a thing deliberately, then maybe we should go back to the beginning and ask for true belief. If we are not doing these things in a mocking way, but earnestly striving for the right, God's grace is sufficient to cover any Sin. So, intention is what matter's here, and God sees the heart of man.

I hope this helps, the Lord bless you rezn.

 

[mutzrein]

Here is an interesting article that quite frankly saddens me.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/193/story_19359_1.html
By the way, If as simple as it sounds, Jesus is the only way. If your friend does not place his faith in Jesus he will go to hell. Jesus also said you can tell a tree by its fruit. A good tree will bare good fruit and a bad tree will bare bad fruit.

I agree that Jesus came that we might have life. He is the way the truth and the life.

But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree that Jesus came that we might have life. He is the way the truth and the life.

But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.

Well, In John 3:16, it does say they will perish. I know, that's another topic... and a hot one too. pun intended 8-)

 

[mutzrein]

I agree that Jesus came that we might have life. He is the way the truth and the life.

But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.

Well, In John 3:16, it does say they will perish. I know, that's another topic... and a hot one too. pun intended 8-)

LOL - yes I am aware of the passage. Perhaps the most quoted verse in scripture but also one of the most commonly misinterpreted.
How is it then that you translate 'perish' to mean 'hell'?

And I am presuming you understand hell to be a place of eternal torment but correct me if I am wrong.

 

[jgredline]

I agree that Jesus came that we might have life. He is the way the truth and the life.

But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.

Well, In John 3:16, it does say they will perish. I know, that's another topic... and a hot one too. pun intended 8-)

LOL - yes I am aware of the passage. Perhaps the most quoted verse in scripture but also one of the most commonly misinterpreted.
How is it then that you translate 'perish' to mean 'hell'?

And I am presuming you understand hell to be a place of eternal torment but correct me if I am wrong.

It sounds like you have bought into the Gospel of Oprah
http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm :o

 

[mutzrein]

I agree that Jesus came that we might have life. He is the way the truth and the life.

But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.

Well, In John 3:16, it does say they will perish. I know, that's another topic... and a hot one too. pun intended 8-)

LOL - yes I am aware of the passage. Perhaps the most quoted verse in scripture but also one of the most commonly misinterpreted.
How is it then that you translate 'perish' to mean 'hell'?

And I am presuming you understand hell to be a place of eternal torment but correct me if I am wrong.

It sounds like you have bought into the Gospel of Oprah
http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm :o

I have not seen the gospel of Oprah, nor do I wish to & nor will I ever 'buy' into anything to do with any so called gospel.

The gospel I speak of is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The life that I have been given, through Christ, is a free gift given by God's grace alone. I didn't seek after it. I didn't chase it. I didn't earn it. I didn't buy it. But one thing I can tell you. Once I was dead but now I am alive. Once I was perishing, but now I have life. My righteousness is in Christ.

But if you want to tell people that they are going to hell, go right ahead.

 

[jgredline]

I agree that Jesus came that we might have life. He is the way the truth and the life.

But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.

Well, In John 3:16, it does say they will perish. I know, that's another topic... and a hot one too. pun intended 8-)

LOL - yes I am aware of the passage. Perhaps the most quoted verse in scripture but also one of the most commonly misinterpreted.
How is it then that you translate 'perish' to mean 'hell'?

And I am presuming you understand hell to be a place of eternal torment but correct me if I am wrong.

It sounds like you have bought into the Gospel of Oprah
http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm :o

I have not seen the gospel of Oprah, nor do I wish to & nor will I ever 'buy' into anything to do with any so called gospel.

The gospel I speak of is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The life that I have been given, through Christ, is a free gift given by God's grace alone. I didn't seek after it. I didn't chase it. I didn't earn it. I didn't buy it. But one thing I can tell you. Once I was dead but now I am alive. Once I was perishing, but now I have life. My righteousness is in Christ.

But if you want to tell people that they are going to hell, go right ahead.

Mutzrein wrote
But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.[/quote

You say in your last post all the right things, but the reality is this. Jesus said your either with me or your against me. Luke 11:23
If a person does not accept to choose Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, then THAT PERSON HAS CHOOSEN TO GO TO HELL.
Its really that simple.

http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm

Its appointed unto man once to die and then the Judgement.
I suggest Oprah repent or she too will have choosen hell.

 

[mutzrein]

http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm[/url] :o

I have not seen the gospel of Oprah, nor do I wish to & nor will I ever 'buy' into anything to do with any so called gospel.

The gospel I speak of is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The life that I have been given, through Christ, is a free gift given by God's grace alone. I didn't seek after it. I didn't chase it. I didn't earn it. I didn't buy it. But one thing I can tell you. Once I was dead but now I am alive. Once I was perishing, but now I have life. My righteousness is in Christ.

But if you want to tell people that they are going to hell, go right ahead.

Mutzrein wrote
But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.[/quote

You say in your last post all the right things, but the reality is this. Jesus said your either with me or your against me. Luke 11:23
If a person does not accept to choose Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, then THAT PERSON HAS CHOOSEN TO GO TO HELL.
Its really that simple.
[/quote:7ef45]

I'm pleased you consider I say the right things because as one who knows Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour I also know that people that have not been born again, do not choose hell. They perish.

Again I ask, show me scripture which says that those who do not accept Christ as Lord & Saviour (or who are not born again) go to hell. I contend they perish. It is those who are given eternal life that are made accountable for the gift of life they are given and therefore these will be judged. Those who haven't received life, perish - according to scripture.

 

[Solo]

http://www.watchman.org/oprah.htm[/url] :o

I have not seen the gospel of Oprah, nor do I wish to & nor will I ever 'buy' into anything to do with any so called gospel.

The gospel I speak of is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The life that I have been given, through Christ, is a free gift given by God's grace alone. I didn't seek after it. I didn't chase it. I didn't earn it. I didn't buy it. But one thing I can tell you. Once I was dead but now I am alive. Once I was perishing, but now I have life. My righteousness is in Christ.

But if you want to tell people that they are going to hell, go right ahead.

Mutzrein wrote
But where does it say that those who don't place their faith in Jesus will go to hell.[/quote

You say in your last post all the right things, but the reality is this. Jesus said your either with me or your against me. Luke 11:23
If a person does not accept to choose Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, then THAT PERSON HAS CHOOSEN TO GO TO HELL.
Its really that simple.
[/quote:ec3d5]

I'm pleased you consider I say the right things because as one who knows Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour I also know that people that have not been born again, do not choose hell. They perish.

Again I ask, show me scripture which says that those who do not accept Christ as Lord & Saviour (or who are not born again) go to hell. I contend they perish. It is those who are given eternal life that are made accountable for the gift of life they are given and therefore these will be judged. Those who haven't received life, perish - according to scripture.[/quote:ec3d5]
What happens to those of the second resurrection?

 

[SputnikBoy]

What happens to those of the second resurrection?

Hi Solo. It's my understanding that this is the resurrection of the wicked. They will indeed perish FOREVER but not before they know the reason/s WHY. This is all a part of God's justice. No one who is sentenced to eternal death will remain in ignorance as to the fact that this was THEIR choice and not God's. This is the way that I understand it.