Hebrew language.....TX for the OP TOG

[TOG]

Day 39 Sunday 5/25/14 Genesis 18:1-15 Three Strangers.

Just as a reminder, I'm using the ESV translation.


The Chapter opens with Abraham still living at the Oaks of Mamre. Three "strangers" apparently dropped out of the sky because of the sudden appearance of these strangers. Suddenly he looks up and three men stood there. For a man of Abraham's age to get up and "run" to meet these strangers, and bow down shows to me that Abraham felt that these were no ordinary strangers. One clue to me was the third word in V.1, "Lord" meaning Jehovah Himself!

The tetragrammaton appears again in verse 14 - Is anything too hard for YHWH? It appears 6 times in tomorrow's section.

The TOG​

 

[reba]

1. Tetragrammaton - Merriam-Webster Online
   www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tetragrammaton
   Merriam‑Webster
   
   the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated YHWH or JHVH that form a biblical proper name of God — compare yahweh ...

 

[Stan1953]

1. Tetragrammaton - Merriam-Webster Online
   www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tetragrammaton
   Merriam‑Webster
   
   the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated YHWH or JHVH that form a biblical proper name of God — compare yahweh ...

It was never JHVH as Hebrews doesn't use J or V, based on the Q're perpetuum.
The tetragrammaton properly transliterated only as YHWH.

 

[TOG]

It was never JHVH as Hebrews doesn't use J or V, based on the Q're perpetuum.
The tetragrammaton properly transliterated only as YHWH.

In nearly every other European language besides English, the letter J is pronounced like the Y in the English word "yes". The Hebrew letter vav can be pronounced either as a V or a W. JHVH can be a correct transliteration.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

In nearly every other European language besides English, the letter J is pronounced like the Y in the English word "yes". The Hebrew letter vav can be pronounced either as a V or a W. JHVH can be a correct transliteration.

The TOG​

Yud Hei Vav Hei = YHVH

'vav' can also have the sound of certain 'o' and 'u' sounds depending on the vowels that are attached.

When I shopped at Colchester Mills many, many years ago, the Jewish owner's when they spoke to my little son, they called him Daved, pronounced with a long e sound and the regular v sound.
David is spelled Dalet Vav Dalet When without the vowel markers.

 

[Stan1953]

In nearly every other European language besides English, the letter J is pronounced like the Y in the English word "yes". The Hebrew letter vav can be pronounced either as a V or a W. JHVH can be a correct transliteration.

The point I was making is that the transliteration is what it is, YHWH. There is no other proper transliteration. There is no representative J in Hebrew and vav cannot be used for any of these 4 Hebrew letters. I suggest you look into the Q're perpetuum to see what I am talking about. What we see in the NT is Greek into English. YHWH is only used in the OT, after the implementation of the Mosaic Laws.

 

[TOG]

The point I was making is that the transliteration is what it is, YHWH. There is no other proper transliteration. There is no representative J in Hebrew

That only applies in English, and although English is the language of this forum, we mustn't forget that there are people here who are not native English speakers. Are they all doing it wrong because they transliterate it according to their pronunciation rather than yours?

and vav cannot be used for any of these 4 Hebrew letters.

Depending on vowel points and other considerations, the Hebrew letter vav can be pronounced as V, W, O or U. Here is one example...
Vayomer (He said) - ואומר vav-aleph-vav-mem-reish. The first vav is pronounced like a V and the second is pronounced like an O.

I suggest you look into the Q're perpetuum to see what I am talking about.

I don't know what the Q're perpetuum is, but if it says that vav cannot be pronounced like a V, then it's wrong. Ask anyone who actually speaks Hebrew.

What we see in the NT is Greek into English. YHWH is only used in the OT, after the implementation of the Mosaic Laws.

Then why is it seen so often in Genesis, before Moses was even born?

The TOG​

 

[reba]

How about a thread on language

 

[Deborah13]

How about a thread on language

I would really like that. There are a couple really cool things I'd like to post for other's consideration and one I just found today that is Really interesting.

TOG would you start a new thread about the Hebrew language because I'm sure you know more about it than I do? I'd rather not mix much Greek with it though because it is no where as fascinating
as Hebrew and could get too confusing?

 

[reba]

Lets see if we can make this work...
Sometimes threads get side tracked with explaining Hebrew words ..( at a request can we keep this one on Hebrew? )
Some of you are good at language and we could all learn something...
If anyone has a clue on setting up the thread speak up....

Cant seem to make this the OP

Here ya are Deborah13 maybe this can work ....

 

[jasonc]

Yud Hei Vav Hei = YHVH

'vav' can also have the sound of certain 'o' and 'u' sounds depending on the vowels that are attached.

When I shopped at Colchester Mills many, many years ago, the Jewish owner's when they spoke to my little son, they called him Daved, pronounced with a long e sound and the regular v sound.
David is spelled Dalet Vav Dalet When without the vowel markers.

daveeed.

 

[jasonc]

That only applies in English, and although English is the language of this forum, we mustn't forget that there are people here who are not native English speakers. Are they all doing it wrong because they transliterate it according to their pronunciation rather than yours?



Depending on vowel points and other considerations, the Hebrew letter vav can be pronounced as V, W, O or U. Here is one example...
Vayomer (He said) - ואומר vav-aleph-vav-mem-reish. The first vav is pronounced like a V and the second is pronounced like an O.




I don't know what the Q're perpetuum is, but if it says that vav cannot be pronounced like a V, then it's wrong. Ask anyone who actually speaks Hebrew.



Then why is it seen so often in Genesis, before Moses was even born?

The TOG​

because moses wrote it. exodus 6 Abraham didn't know god as YHWH. so how can or the men before moses say YHWH?

 

[Stan1953]

That only applies in English, and although English is the language of this forum, we mustn't forget that there are people here who are not native English speakers. Are they all doing it wrong because they transliterate it according to their pronunciation rather than yours?

Well I wasn't talking about any other languages but English, so that is non sequitur. Jesus in Spanish is Heysoos and they don't transliterate it to say it or use it.

Depending on vowel points and other considerations, the Hebrew letter vav can be pronounced as V, W, O or U. Here is one example...
Vayomer (He said) - ואומר vav-aleph-vav-mem-reish. The first vav is pronounced like a V and the second is pronounced like an O.

Still not the point... YHWH is the spelling of the transliteration...there is no V as the Hebrew letter was NOT vav. I'm not sure why you're not understanding this?

I don't know what the Q're perpetuum is, but if it says that vav cannot be pronounced like a V, then it's wrong. Ask anyone who actually speaks Hebrew.

Like I said I suggest you study up on it. You seem to be refusing to see what I am talking about.

Then why is it seen so often in Genesis, before Moses was even born?

I would assume it was tradition and until Moses, no one was actually told what God's name was. After Moses it became "I AM".
Oh and Moses wrote Genesis so that may be the actual reason.

 

[Deborah13]

Well I wasn't talking about any other languages but English, so that is non sequitur. Jesus in Spanish is Heysoos and they don't transliterate it to say it or use it.



Still not the point... YHWH is the spelling of the transliteration...there is no V as the Hebrew letter was NOT vav. I'm not sure why you're not understanding this?

If it is not Yud Hei Vav Hei, in Hebrew what is it, please?

Like I said I suggest you study up on it. You seem to be refusing to see what I am talking about.

I would assume it was tradition and until Moses, no one was actually told what God's name was. After Moses it became "I AM".
Oh and Moses wrote Genesis so that may be the actual reason.

 

[TOG]

I must be more confused by the Math Game than I thought. I don't remember starting a thread on Hebrew?

I don't know Hebrew, although I have tried to learn it and haven't completely given up. I guess since I seem to have started this thread, I might as well say something in Hebrew... Uh...

Shma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

The TOG

 

[reba]

A pentecostal bunch ?

 

[jasonc]

he recited the shemah. hear oh isreal our Lord God is one.

 

[jasonc]

the difference I know where and whom to ask. if my grandpa was alive. I would go ask him. he taught Hebrew in the temple.

 

[TOG]

Well I wasn't talking about any other languages but English, so that is non sequitur.

You said there was no other possible way of transliterating it. I pointed out that there was.

Still not the point... YHWH is the spelling of the transliteration...there is no V as the Hebrew letter was NOT vav.

No vav in yud-hey-VAV-hey? Are you sure about that?

I'm not sure why you're not understanding this?

Could it be that I get what you're saying but that you are wrong? Could it be that there really is a vav in the tetragrammaton and that vav in Hebrew can be pronounced as V and therefore can be transliterated as such? Could it be that there is more than one valid way of transliterating God's name and that you are not the only one who knows the only correct way of doing it? No... I guess none of those things are possible.

Like I said I suggest you study up on it.

And like I said, I don't even know what that is. It's hard to study up on something when you don't know what it is.

You seem to be refusing to see what I am talking about.

I'm not refusing to see anything.

I would assume it was tradition and until Moses, no one was actually told what God's name was. After Moses it became "I AM".
Oh and Moses wrote Genesis so that may be the actual reason.

Names are much more than labels in Hebrew. They tell something about the person. As an analogy, consider the name Christopher. The name Christopher means "Christ bearer". Imagine that there is an evangelist named Christopher. When you first meet him, you don't know he's an evangelist, but you know that he goes by the name Christopher. To you, that name is nothing more than a label that identifies him. Then, some time after you first meet him, he starts witnessing to you (imagine that you are not a Christian) and telling you about God's love and what Christ did for you. You could say that, up until that time, you knew him by the label Christopher, but you didn't know him as Christ bearer. I think that's what's happening here. People seem to have known the label, but they didn't know the nature that label conveys until God revealed it to them.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

It's interesting that TOG should mention that names and the way they are spelled can mean something in languages and that's true in Hebrew as well. I found something today when checking out 'vav'.
Deborah in Hebrew is pronounced with a 'v' sound not a 'b' sound, as far as everything I know. I wasn't using Deborah but Debby when I was young, to bad because I would have heard it from those same Jewish couples years ago.
Anyway, I looked at Deborah in Judges and found it strange that there would be 5 Hebrew letters used when there is only 4 consonants. There were two 'v' letters, both the 'vet' and the 'vav'. Why would that be, then I got this thought to check out Deborah the nurse to Rebekah in Genesis 35:8. Whoa, only one 'v', the 'vet'.

Genesis 35
8 And Deborah Rebekah's nurse died, and she was buried below Beth-el under the oak; and the name of it was called Allon-bacuth.
ח וַתָּמָת דְּבֹרָה מֵינֶקֶת רִבְקָה, וַתִּקָּבֵר מִתַּחַת לְבֵית-אֵל תַּחַת הָאַלּוֹן; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ, אַלּוֹן בָּכוּת. {פ}

Judges 4:4
4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
ד וּדְבוֹרָה אִשָּׁה נְבִיאָה, אֵשֶׁת לַפִּידוֹת--הִיא שֹׁפְטָה אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל, בָּעֵת הַהִיא.

Deborah - Dalet Vet Reysh Hei (or Hey)
Deborah - Dalet Vet Vav Reysh Hei

Does anyone have any suggestions why this would be?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0704.htm