Hell, what is it?

[OzSpen]

Wait a second... did you seriously just say Jesus was NOT a historical person?
Do you know what you just said? If He was not a historical person, then that means he NEVER existed. He NEVER "dwelt among us".....
Jesus was most certainly a Historical person who lived and died about 2000 years ago.

Furthermore, he spoke with real historical people, who lived in historical places that do NOT resemble our current culture.

And honestly, if you don't care about the discussion, then you shouldn't be in it. Your allowed to hide in your own little bubble if you want.

Extremely well said, Stove!

 

[Papa Zoom]

♦ /Big Grin

♦ I have a huge amount of respect for Senior Citizens and stand
aside so they can step in front of me in Walmart check-out lines,
especially if they are walking with a cane and can quote John 3:16

♦ I think the United States Government has a moral obligation to issue
Senior Citizens badges to all Senior Citizens so they can legally
go to the front of all lines at all check-out counters, while placing the
grumblers/objectors under arrest for "disrespecting the aged" --- if they
need to do that.

. . . lol . .

/just kidding around up there


`

 

[OzSpen]

Perhaps he mean that Jesus was not just a historical person.....

That's reading between the lines and is a dangerous procedure. We should leave it up to Nathan to explain further what he meant because arguing from silence gets us into a lot of 'perhaps', 'suppose', 'maybe', 'I hope', 'could he be saying', etc.

Stove responded to what Nathan actually wrote: 'Jesus is not a historical person, He is the living Son of God' (#151). We don't have to argue from silence. He said plainly that Jesus is not an historical person.

If he's not an historical person, the NT Gospel events involving Jesus are false, his death on the cross and resurrection, didn't happen historically.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Small world.

I like to read him too. However, its takes him forever to get "to the point." And he
rambles around everywhere before he finally arrives at the point. (this not intended to
be unkind criticism, I wrote that pleasantly.)

Nonetheless, I have his "Surprised By Hope" and his "Simply Christian" on my
Kindle and I keep "both of 'em going" as books on my Keep On Reading List.

I read most of Wright's, The Resurrection of the Son of God (871pp), when i was pursuing my PhD dissertation and found Wright to be a meticulous researcher. I learned so much from reading this magnificent exposition.

Yes, he could say it in a shorter form at times.

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

That's reading between the lines and is a dangerous procedure. We should leave it up to Nathan to explain further what he meant because arguing from silence gets us into a lot of 'perhaps', 'suppose', 'maybe', 'I hope', 'could he be saying', etc.

Stove responded to what Nathan actually wrote: 'Jesus is not a historical person, He is the living Son of God' (#151). We don't have to argue from silence. He said plainly that Jesus is not an historical person.

If he's not an historical person, the NT Gospel events involving Jesus are false, his death on the cross and resurrection, didn't happen historically.

Oz

True. But you'll note I said perhaps which isn't reading between the lines but giving the benefit of the doubt. Turns out that I had it wrong either way.

 

[Papa Zoom]

That's reading between the lines and is a dangerous procedure. We should leave it up to Nathan to explain further what he meant because arguing from silence gets us into a lot of 'perhaps', 'suppose', 'maybe', 'I hope', 'could he be saying', etc.

Stove responded to what Nathan actually wrote: 'Jesus is not a historical person, He is the living Son of God' (#151). We don't have to argue from silence. He said plainly that Jesus is not an historical person.

If he's not an historical person, the NT Gospel events involving Jesus are false, his death on the cross and resurrection, didn't happen historically.

Oz

Is that (The Resurrection of the Son of God) a three volume set or does it comes in one? Either way, that is one hefty reading assignment. Perhaps there are Cliff Notes. ;)

 

[Bick]

Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.

What is it?

Was it created, or did it always exist?

Who goes there?

Why do they go there?

I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.

Bick here.
My research shows me the concept of "conscious eternal punishment" was introduced into Roman Catholic theology by Augustine of Hippo (St. Augustine) in the 4th century A.D. Augustine was a serious student of Plato and other Greek philosophers, and he embraced the idea of "immortal soul" and CEP from them. This teaching became dogma in the RC church and, unfortunately, was believed by the Reformation Fathers and most of Prostestism today.

But, such teaching is not in the Originals, or, at least in the almost exact copies available.
"Gehenna", commonly rendered "hell", is the place Jesus warned about, but it was a literal place (the valley outside the walls of Jerusalem where the city trash was dumped as well as dead bodies), not some place "in the middle of the earth."

Some render "the lake of fire" as "hell," but it is not called that in the Bible.

Thus, I would surmise, there is no "hell" where "lost souls" are tormented forever.

Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.

What is it?

Was it created, or did it always exist?

Who goes there?

Why do they go there?

I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.

 

[Bick]

Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.

What is it?

Was it created, or did it always exist?

Who goes there?

Why do they go there?

I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.

 

[Bick]

Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.

What is it?

Was it created, or did it always exist?

Who goes there?

Why do they go there?

I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.

 

[stovebolts]

He's even more fun to listen to. The N. T. Wright Podcast by Sean Andres Old stuff but good.

I'll have to look for that. I'm in my car 2 hours a day!

 

[JAG ..]

I read most of Wright's, The Resurrection of the Son of God (871pp),
when i was pursuing my PhD dissertation and found Wright to be a
meticulous researcher. I learned so much from reading this magnificent
exposition.

Hello Oz,
I've never had the pleasure of reading that book, but I have heard it said
its the great Christian classic on the Resurrection and that there isn't
anything else ever written on that subject, that is comparable to it.

Speaking of N.T. Wright here in a thread on Hell, I will mention N.T. Wright's
views on Hell because you might find them interesting. He outlines the three
main views and then he proposes, to quote Wright, "a view that combines
what seems to me to be the strong points of the first and third" view.

The first view that Wright rejects is (1) Eternal Conscious Torment.

The second view that Wright rejects is (2) Universalism

And the third view that Wright rejects is (3) Conditional Immortality.

He then proceeds (as indicated in the Wright quote in red ink up there) to combine
what he says is the strong points of (1) and (3) and he ends up saying this about the
people that finally end up in Hell: (I will type in the pertinent quote).

"My suggestion is that it is possible for human beings so to continue down this
road [of sin], so to refuse all whisperings to turn and go the other way, all signposts
to the love of God, that after death they become at last, by their own effective choice,
beings that once were human but now are not, creatures that have ceased to bear the
divine image at all . . . they pass simultaneously not only beyond hope but also beyond
pity." __N.T.Wright, Surprised By Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the
Mission of the Church, page 182

In N.T. Wright's view, the creatures that arrive in Hell end up being "Gollum like" creatures,
beyond hope and beyond pity. They become "beings that once were human but now are not,
creatures that have ceased to bear the divine image at all." You remember the creature Gollum
from Tolkien's Lord Of The Rings.

Do you find interesting or fascinating N.T. Wright's view of those who end up in Gehenna?


`

 

[JAG ..]

I read . . .
Oz

By the way Oz, I have reason to believe (based upon the reading of
several of your posts) that you are likely to be at least a little bit interested
in this thread I just started, here:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...e-role-of-evidence-in-reasonable-faith.70299/

 

[OzSpen]

Is that (The Resurrection of the Son of God) a three volume set or does it comes in one? Either way, that is one hefty reading assignment. Perhaps there are Cliff Notes. ;)

I have the one-volume paperback edition, published by Fortress Press, Minneapolis. It is vol 3 in N T Wright's series, 'Christian Origins and the Question of God'.

I have read most of the earlier 2 volumes: (1) The New Testament and the People of God (535pp, Fortress Press); (2) Jesus and the Victory of God (741pp, Fortress Press). There is a 4th vol, Paul and His Recent Interpreters (404pp, Fortress Press). I haven't read the latter one.

None of these is light reading but I've found them very informative and I've learned a lot about Scripture and culture through reading his insights.

There are plenty of footnotes (on the same page) to keep you riveted to the story line.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Bick here.
My research shows me the concept of "conscious eternal punishment" was introduced into Roman Catholic theology by Augustine of Hippo (St. Augustine) in the 4th century A.D. Augustine was a serious student of Plato and other Greek philosophers, and he embraced the idea of "immortal soul" and CEP from them. This teaching became dogma in the RC church and, unfortunately, was believed by the Reformation Fathers and most of Prostestism today.

But, such teaching is not in the Originals, or, at least in the almost exact copies available.
"Gehenna", commonly rendered "hell", is the place Jesus warned about, but it was a literal place (the valley outside the walls of Jerusalem where the city trash was dumped as well as dead bodies), not some place "in the middle of the earth."

Some render "the lake of fire" as "hell," but it is not called that in the Bible.

Thus, I would surmise, there is no "hell" where "lost souls" are tormented forever.

Not so, Bick. The teaching on the reality of eternal, conscious punishment for the damned after death was taught by Jesus himself.

The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening (Isaiah 30:33). It was a place utterly filthy, disgusting and repulsive to the nose and eyes. Gehenna presented such a vivid image that Christ used it as a symbolic depiction of hell: a place of eternal torment and constant uncleanness, where the fires never ceased burning and the worms never stopped crawling (Matthew 10:28; Mark 9:47–48).

Because of Jesus’ symbolic use of Gehenna, the word gehenna is sometimes used as a synonym for hell. In fact, that’s how the Greek word is translated in Mark 9:47: “hell.” The occupants of the lake of fire/gehenna/hell are separated from God for all of eternity (What is Gehenna?)​

The doctrine of Gehenna as eternal, conscious, punishment is contained in my copy of the Greek NT: καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ (Matt 10:28, SBLGNT, Greek NT, emphasis added).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hello Oz,
I've never had the pleasure of reading that book, but I have heard it said
its the great Christian classic on the Resurrection and that there isn't
anything else ever written on that subject, that is comparable to it.

Speaking of N.T. Wright here in a thread on Hell, I will mention N.T. Wright's
views on Hell because you might find them interesting. He outlines the three
main views and then he proposes, to quote Wright, "a view that combines
what seems to me to be the strong points of the first and third" view.

The first view that Wright rejects is (1) Eternal Conscious Torment.

The second view that Wright rejects is (2) Universalism

And the third view that Wright rejects is (3) Conditional Immortality.

He then proceeds (as indicated in the Wright quote in red ink up there) to combine
what he says is the strong points of (1) and (3) and he ends up saying this about the
people that finally end up in Hell: (I will type in the pertinent quote).

"My suggestion is that it is possible for human beings so to continue down this
road [of sin], so to refuse all whisperings to turn and go the other way, all signposts
to the love of God, that after death they become at last, by their own effective choice,
beings that once were human but now are not, creatures that have ceased to bear the
divine image at all . . . they pass simultaneously not only beyond hope but also beyond
pity." __N.T.Wright, Surprised By Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the
Mission of the Church, page 182

In N.T. Wright's view, the creatures that arrive in Hell end up being "Gollum like" creatures,
beyond hope and beyond pity. They become "beings that once were human but now are not,
creatures that have ceased to bear the divine image at all." You remember the creature Gollum
from Tolkien's Lord Of The Rings.

Do you find interesting or fascinating N.T. Wright's view of those who end up in Gehenna?


`

JAG,

I find it speculative and not given to the careful assessment of evidence I very often read from his research.

My assessment is in 'eternal torment of unbelievers when they die'.

I would find it difficult biblically to endorse Wright's view that after death 'beings that once were human but now are not, creatures that have ceased to bear the divine image at all'.

That reads like a Wright jump off the theological precipice into the abyss of his own imagination.

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

Not so, Bick. The teaching on the reality of eternal, conscious punishment for the damned after death was taught by Jesus himself.

The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening (Isaiah 30:33). It was a place utterly filthy, disgusting and repulsive to the nose and eyes. Gehenna presented such a vivid image that Christ used it as a symbolic depiction of hell: a place of eternal torment and constant uncleanness, where the fires never ceased burning and the worms never stopped crawling (Matthew 10:28; Mark 9:47–48).

Because of Jesus’ symbolic use of Gehenna, the word gehenna is sometimes used as a synonym for hell. In fact, that’s how the Greek word is translated in Mark 9:47: “hell.” The occupants of the lake of fire/gehenna/hell are separated from God for all of eternity (What is Gehenna?)​

The doctrine of Gehenna as eternal, conscious, punishment is contained in my copy of the Greek NT: καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ (Matt 10:28, SBLGNT, Greek NT, emphasis added).

Oz

Have you looked at 1 Kings 11:7-8

In that passage, we See Solomon establishing the practice of child sacrifice for all of Israel. See 2 Kings 3:36
Jer 19:6
Jer 32:35
Matthew 10:28 in the light of the above context. Many will disagree, I already know....

Because of Gods promise to David, the kingdom would be tore apart after Solomon's reign. 1 Kings 11:11-13

Gehenna takes on way more than it's physical dimensions. It's also about systemic sin. By way of example, Solomon built the temple with slave labor, he was an arms dealer who profited from war. He screwed his neighbors in business deals and he built his empire by way of his military and it came to a head when he set up Gehenna and had his own children offered in the physical fires that are burned into the memories of Israel for life.

Edit: I accidently put chapter9 instead of chapter 11 for 1 Kings

 

[OzSpen]

Have you looked at 1 Kings 11:7-8

In that passage, we See Solomon establishing the practice of child sacrifice for all of Israel. See 2 Kings 3:36
Jer 19:6
Jer 32:35
Matthew 10:28 in the light of the above context. Many will disagree, I already know....

Because of Gods promise to David, the kingdom would be tore apart after Solomon's reign. 1 Kings 11:11-13

Gehenna takes on way more than it's physical dimensions. It's also about systemic sin. By way of example, Solomon built the temple with slave labor, he was an arms dealer who profited from war. He screwed his neighbors in business deals and he built his empire by way of his military and it came to a head when he set up Gehenna and had his own children offered in the physical fires that are burned into the memories of Israel for life.

Edit: I accidently put chapter9 instead of chapter 11 for 1 Kings

The revelation of life after death in the OT is more limited than what we have in the NT, thanks to progressive revelation.

Yes, I have looked at 1 Kings 11 and other OT passages. I've addressed some of the OT teachings in my article, Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament.

Oz

 

[Kidron]

Hell is what is found at the end of a Christ rejecting life.
Its the reward.

 

[stovebolts]

The revelation of life after death in the OT is more limited than what we have in the NT, thanks to progressive revelation.

Yes, I have looked at 1 Kings 11 and other OT passages. I've addressed some of the OT teachings in my article, Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament.

Oz

That is a very good article you wrote. I will keep that for future reference.

Per your article, Sheol is not only a place of torment for some, but also a place to reunite per the passages you recieted.

Per the passages I posted in relation to Gehenna, how would you tie the two together.

In a sense, Gehenna starts with the evil in this life and extends to the afterlife.

Thoughts?

 

[OzSpen]

That is a very good article you wrote. I will keep that for future reference.

Per your article, Sheol is not only a place of torment for some, but also a place to reunite per the passages you recieted.

Per the passages I posted in relation to Gehenna, how would you tie the two together.

In a sense, Gehenna starts with the evil in this life and extends to the afterlife.

Thoughts?

This is my understanding from the Scriptures.

Here is a brief summary of the meaning of one Hebrew and three Greek words.

• Sheol. OT believers knew that Sheol [Hebrew] was visible to God (Job 26:6) and that they were in the presence and protection of God at death (Psalm 139:8).
• Hades (Morey 1984:81-87). It is the Greek equivalent of Sheol, although it translates other Hebrew words as well. We run into problems with the mistranslation by the KJV of Hades and Sheol. The post-resurrection teaching in the NT is that the believer goes to heaven at death (present with the Lord) to await the resurrection and the final eternal state. But for unbelievers they go to Hades, a temporary place of torment, awaiting their resurrection and the eternal punishment. Regarding 2 Peter 2:9, ‘the grammar of the text irrefutably establishes that the wicked are in torment while they await their final judgment. When the day of judgment arrives, Hades will be emptied of its inhabitants, and the wicked will stand before God for their final sentence (Rev. 20:13-15). Thus, we conclude that Hades will be emptied at the resurrection, and then the wicked will be cast into “hell” (Gehenna)’ (Morey 1984:87).
• Valley of Hinnom. It is mentioned in Josh 15:8; 18:16 and Neh. 11:30. It was the place where idolatrous Jews gave human sacrifices to pagan deities. In Christ’s day it became Jerusalem’s garbage dump. So, this garbage dump became a Jewish picture of the ultimate fate of idol worshippers (Morey 1984:87).
• Tartarus. This is used only once in the NT in 2 Peter 2:4 to refer to angels and where they were cast. Peter was using a word that in Greek literature meant a place of conscious torment in the netherworld. It did not mean non-existence, but referred to their being reserved in the place of mental anguish and terror until the day of judgment (Morey 1984:135).
• Gehenna. It’s the Greek equivalent of the Valley of Hinnom, so Gehenna is an appropriate description of the final, eternal garbage dump where idolators go after the resurrection. The wicked would suffer there forever. Even Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek lexicon concluded that it means ‘the place of eternal punishment’. Coon and Mills define Gehenna as ‘the place of eternal punishment’. So Gehenna is the final place of punishment, the ultimate place of torment for the wicked. It will be eternal, conscious torment (Morey 1984:87-90).

Conclusion
The Christian believers go to be with the Lord at death, ‘Away from the body and at home with the Lord’ (2 Cor. 5:8 ESV). They await the resurrection and the final state in heaven.

By contrast, all unbelievers at death go to Hades, a temporary place of torment, and await the resurrection, at which time they will be cast by God permanently into Gehenna, the place of eternal, conscious torment.

This is my understanding of the biblical teaching on hell, in spite of others wanting to change it, e.g. Preston Sprinkle, Rob Bell, Clark Pinnock, etc.

Works consulted

Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Morey, R A 1984. Death and the afterlife. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers (from my article, Hell in the Bible).