Hell: Will God see?, Will we?

[Veritas]

I don't want this to be a debate about Hell not being eternal punishment and instead annihilation . It is clear from God's Word that there will be no rest in Hell.

If you believe Hell is simply annihilation, debate it in the other threads please.

I want to explore the possiblity of God seeing those in Hell. And the saved possibly seeing those in Hell.

I came across this verse which says God will see whats going on in Hell:

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."†Revelation 14:9-11

And of course, there is the narrative Jesus gave of the rich man in hell talking with Abraham: Luke 16:19-31

I know this is relating to the time before Christ opened heaven so I'm unsure if this means we might see those in torment.

Thoughts? (I'll be gone this weekend so I'll just have to reply on Monday.)

 

[RND]

I want to explore the possiblity of God seeing those in Hell. And the saved possibly seeing those in Hell.

I came across this verse which says God will see whats going on in Hell:

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."†Revelation 14:9-11

It was "pointed out" to you, by me, here:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 430#334430

The least you could do is be honest where you get your material.

My quote was:

"This one's funny! Because it reveals that the holy angels and Jesus the Lamb are in hell too!

Follow along:

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb? Or could it possibly mean that it's "torture" for the unrighteous to be in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus the Lamb?"


Picture this: Jesus, the Son of God, leaves Heaven to become a man and a sacrifice for sin, is then resurrected only to spend eternity watching the wicked burn in hell.

Gee, thanks Dad!

And of course, there is the narrative Jesus gave of the rich man in hell talking with Abraham: Luke 16:19-31

I wonder what the crumbs that fell from the Richmans table represented?

I know this is relating to the time before Christ opened heaven so I'm unsure if this means we might see those in torment.

If you read and followed your Bible you wouldn't be.

Thoughts? (I'll be gone this weekend so I'll just have to reply on Monday.)

Sure, but would you be able to comprehend them?

 

[Bubba]

The majority of Christendom uses the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to support the idea of being conscious in Hell and being able to look over into this place of torment. I read this article from a guy name Jim Minker, he is a "off beat" type of guy, refuses to use doctrinal terms, or try to explain the Godhead, but is he correct about this story?

The Rich Man and Lazarus – Luke 16:19-31


Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.


And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame."


But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us."


And he said, "Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house – for I have five brothers – in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."


But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them."


But he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!"


But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."




Consider that this little tale might be an elaboration on the previously made statement: "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.†What if it was never meant to be an expose’ on the literal horrors of a burning hell but instead was a pointed story told in the form of contemporary religious mythology. Yes, mythology. After all, let’s not forget that Hades was part of Greek and Roman ignorance.

A few questions:

1 Did you ever wonder how the rich man from his location in Hades could look over and see Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom�
2 And what kind of comfort would anyone find in “Abraham’s bosom†if they could simply look far away and see others suffering in flames?
3 Then do you really think those in hell, or Hades, would be talking to “Father Abraham�
4 And why do you think the story has the rich man addressing Abraham instead of God?
5 And would a “wicked†man even be concerned about his brothers?

I know answers have been constructed in view of such questions, but I have to wonder how we can be satisfied with any answer that overlooks the very meaning and reason behind the story itself. For the story so accurately describes the fallacies of the self-righteous religious man by portraying HIM in the role he has projected on everyone else. It is the same kind of set up that King David fell for when the prophet Nathan told him the story of the rich man who killed his poor neighbor’s pet lamb to serve his house guests. David becomes enraged and demands that the rich man should be put to death for such an atrocity. Nathan told him, “YOU are the man!†When David heard it he was cut to the heart, but these blind guides were all the more convinced that Jesus needed to die.


The wording of the story plays into the beliefs of the Pharisees. The very idea that the despised Lazarus would be carried by angels into “Abraham’s bosom†while the rich man – he who was after their likeness – merely “died and was buried†to wake up in Hades was a total assault to the very rightness of Scriptural accuracy as far as they were concerned. The Pharisees consistently scoffed at any suggestion that they were not “Abraham’s childrenâ€Â. Also, the “conversation†between a man in hell and Abraham in paradise was merely a rhetorical scene designed to highlight the fact that they had never believed Moses and the Prophets … and would not believe even if someone were to rise from the dead.

To them, Jesus was speaking pure absurdity … but the disciples were experiencing some incredible distinctions between life and religion.


By the way, any idea what this “great chasm†is?
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor 2:12-16)


The great chasm is the void between the mind of the world and the mind of God, not some barrier created by an impassable terrain. There is no crossing between the one and the other as the only possibility is to have miraculously been given the mind of Christ. Listen to what the disciples learned from Jesus and you find this same conclusion all throughout their writings.




Jim Minker

 

[dancing queen]

With regards to will we see, someone pruposed to me - would Heaven be happy/no tears/no pain if you could see your family/friends who didn't accept Christ being tortured in Hell.

 

[guibox]

All throughout the scriptures we see evidence that sin cannot exist in the presence of God. Had God fully revealed His glory, Moses would most likely have perished.

Revelation says 'and they will be tormented in the presence of the lamb and the angels'

Now whether we in Christ's righteousness will truly see God is probable. However, sinners who have not accepted that robe are truly still mortal. They do not have immortal souls and do not have immortality in any fashion.

The fact that the Bible says that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever AND int he presence of the lamb is a complete contradiction for the glory of God alone would destroy them completely.

This is why we must determine that the language used (used elsewhere in the Bible like Isaiah 34:10) is temporal.

You also cannot use Luke 16 and Abraham and the rich man talking because the parable speaks of Hades after we physically die and not 'gehenna' fire at the end of time.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Craig,

My only thoughts are:

I am careful not to use Revelation to formulate doctrine... outside of eschatology, of course. ;-)

I see The Rich Man and Lazarus as part of a bigger parable which starts at Luke 15:3.


That is all.. for now. 8-)

 

[jgredline]

What leads you folks to believe that Luke 16 is a parable?

Has it ever occurred to you that there is a possibility that this is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead? Lazarus went someplace for 4 days....

Think about it...Why would Jesus use real names if it were a parable?

 

[Bubba]

What leads you folks to believe that Luke 16 is a parable?

Has it ever occurred to you that there is a possibility that this is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead? Lazarus went someplace for 4 days....

Think about it...Why would Jesus use real names if it were a parable?

From the article earlier in this thread:
"Consider that this little tale might be an elaboration on the previously made statement: "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.†(Luke 16:15) What if it was never meant to be an expose’ on the literal horrors of a burning hell but instead was a pointed story told in the form of contemporary religious mythology. Yes, mythology. After all, let’s not forget that Hades was part of Greek and Roman ignorance."

Considering that wealth even today in countries like Ethiopia, is a sign of God's favor, which if you look at Luke 16:14, "The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus", you readily see that this parable was going to stir up problems with these religious elite, who believe the same in regards to God's favor. Yet, it was Lazarus who gets the royal treatment, not the richman. Bubba

A few questions to consider: (from article)

1 Did you ever wonder how the rich man from his location in Hades could look over and see Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom�
2 And what kind of comfort would anyone find in “Abraham’s bosom†if they could simply look far away and see others suffering in flames?
3 Then do you really think those in hell, or Hades, would be talking to “Father Abraham�
4 And why do you think the story has the rich man addressing Abraham instead of God?
5 And would a Àœwicked†man even be concerned about his brothers?

 

[guibox]

As far as the topic goes, regardless of how one wants to interpret Luke 16 (though the fact that there is no biblical support for the concepts therein and much more that completely contradicts it should show that the issue was not about the nature of the afterlife at all), the fact remains, that we cannot use Luke 16 to denote whether in the final judgement, the saints and God will gaze upon the wicked's torment.

Gehenna and Hades are two different places at two different times. The conepts of one cannot be used as 'proof' for the other.

 

[Guest]

What leads you folks to believe that Luke 16 is a parable?

Has it ever occurred to you that there is a possibility that this is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead? Lazarus went someplace for 4 days....

Think about it...Why would Jesus use real names if it were a parable?

I believe that Jesus's use of names (who is to say that it is the Lazarus raised from the dead) highlights the importance of the parable. If Luke 16 is a parable about how we are to treat the poor - what greater emphasis could there be than giving the poor person a name! It merely drives the point home even more.

Not to mention the context in which the parable is found - there is nothing to denote this sudden change to teaching about the afterlife.

 

[Vic C.]

I believe that Jesus's use of names (who is to say that it is the Lazarus raised from the dead) highlights the importance of the parable. If Luke 16 is a parable about how we are to treat the poor - what greated emphasis could there be than giving the poor person a name! It merely drives the point home even more.

Not to mention the context in which the parable is found - there is nothing to denote this sudden change to teaching about the afterlife.

Not to undermine the doctrine of eternal torment, I couldn't have said it better. Jesus' parables always have a common point. I don't recall where He ever changed subjects midstream.

That poor person's name, Lazarus, has a meaning... Assistance of God, one who God helps, helped by God, etc. This may be the reason for the Proper name.

I've heard it said that it isn't a parable because it doesn't start off saying it's a parable. That's because, like I said above, it's part of a bigger parable. Luke 15:11 doesn't say it's a parable.but we would ptobably agree it is, or at least part of the parable that starts at Luke 15:3. Same with Luke 16:1.

I think Bubba made point, the the focus of this story is found in Luke 16:15.

I'm not even going to commentaries for this. I'm just reading in context from Luke 15:3 thru Luke 17:10. I see this entire passage as being about right faith and stewardship.

 

[jgredline]

I don't know where I got this from........So if anybody knows who the author is let me know...None the less, I believe it explains it quite well.....

19–21. There was a certain rich man … and there was a certain beggar. This is the true account of a real history of two men, even though it is used much like a parable, i.e., to teach a particular lesson or to emphasize some principle. Some, however, contend that this is a parable saying that (1) the name Lazarus means “God helps†and is figurative or perhaps was intentionally chosen later because another Lazarus did come back from the dead; (2) it begins exactly as the preceding “parable†in Luke 16:1 (which incidentally is also not called a parable in the text); (3) it is used in parabolic fashion to prove a main point; (4) facts are presented in symbolic form; (5) it is in the context of other parables in Luke 15–18; (6) Christ would not have divulged such truths to unbelieving Pharisees; (7) the ability to see, hear, and communicate between heaven and hell after death is not possible; (8) the rich man would not have known Abraham and Lazarus by sight; and (9) in real life the names of rich men are given, while beggars’ names are unknown. Some of these points are well-taken, but none prove that this account was only a parable.
There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history. (1) Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals. Here not only Lazarus is named, but also Abraham (vss. 22–25, 29–30) and Moses (vs. 31). (2) Jesus said “there was a certain rich man.†Harry Ironside noted, “Was there, or was there not? He definitely declared that there was.†(3) Moses, Abraham, and the prophets are real people, whereas parables never refer to specific Old Testament saints. (4) Luke does not call this a parable as he does in thirteen other clear cases of parable so designated. (5) It is narrated like a real history. (6) Parables deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate moral lessons, and come from natural life. This does not. (7) Hades is a reality, not a figure of speech. (8) There is no reason why Jesus could not have had in mind a particular case. He is describing what took place after death in the cases of two men for the moral profit of His hearers. (9) The conversation between the rich man and Abraham does not seem to lend itself to parabolic format. (10) Even a case history, as this is, could be used in parabolic fashion to teach a precise moral truth.
22. Abraham’s bosom. This is a designation for where Abraham was, taken variously as being heaven itself or some other intermediate place.
23–25. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. Between death and resurrection the immaterial part of man goes either to be with the Lord, if he is saved (II Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23), or into conscious torment as here. Resurrection reunites the body to the soul, and the state of existence continues to be either with Christ, or in the punishment of eternal duration (Mt 25:41, 46).
26. A great gulf fixed. Once a person passes from this life his probation is ended, and his eternal destiny is fixed. It has been appointed by God that once a man dies, then comes the judgment (Heb 9:27).
27–30. I have five brethren. The rich man’s name and town are probably omitted in Christ’s recounting of this history because of the embarrassment it might bring to his family that was still living.
31. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Another Lazarus did return from the dead and the religious leaders sought only to kill him, though some believed through his testimony (Jn 12:9–11). Several additional teachings about hell are contained in this brief history. Memory and personality continue there even in the midst of untold anguish, misery, and suffering. There is no returning or sending back of messages from hell; thus, no reincarnation, nor spiritism as it is thought of by those who are thereby deceived.

 

[Vic C.]

There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history. (1) Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals.

I'm not sure if I'd put all my eggs in that one basket. The fact that proper names are mentioned doesn't lend itself to conclude such a thing. We don't know if all Jesus' parables were recorded.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

If one is to expound a doctrine of eternal hell from scriptures, there are many places in the Bible which could support this doctrine. This story, IMO, supports the lesson taught throughout Luke 15:3 through Luke 17:10, which is stewardship and true faith.

27–30. I have five brethren. The rich man’s name and town are probably omitted in Christ’s recounting of this history because of the embarrassment it might bring to his family that was still living.

That's a bit of a stretch, IMO.

Peace.

 

[Solo]

I don't want this to be a debate about Hell not being eternal punishment and instead annihilation . It is clear from God's Word that there will be no rest in Hell.

If you believe Hell is simply annihilation, debate it in the other threads please.

I want to explore the possiblity of God seeing those in Hell. And the saved possibly seeing those in Hell.

I came across this verse which says God will see whats going on in Hell:

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."†Revelation 14:9-11

And of course, there is the narrative Jesus gave of the rich man in hell talking with Abraham: Luke 16:19-31

I know this is relating to the time before Christ opened heaven so I'm unsure if this means we might see those in torment.

Thoughts? (I'll be gone this weekend so I'll just have to reply on Monday.)

So much for keeping the annihilationists out. It is difficult to stop false teachings in the world of the enemy's last stand, especially when the administrator is pro-annihilation (which is against the forum statement of faith).

 

[Guest]

I don't know where I got this from........So if anybody knows who the author is let me know...None the less, I believe it explains it quite well.....

jg - When I was little, we used to tell "cute" (and I will admit, at the time some not so "cute") lymericks. I believed they went something like: "There once was a man from....." - That did not mean there was a literal man.

By Jesus saying "There was" - does not in and of itself mean that Jesus was stating a factual, literal, man.

Also, the idea that he "looked up" implies that Hell is below and Heaven is Up. Really? Is there an up and down in the spiritual dimension?

Luke doesn't say "this is a parable", but he does start it out by saying "Now He was also saying to the disciples" - which connects this passage with the rest of Luke 15. Luke 15:3 states "So He told them a parable, saying" which goes into the parable of the lost sheep, rolls right into the parable of the lost coin, which rolls right into the parable of the prodigal son, which rolls into the parable of the unrighteous steward.

Luke 16:14 states that the Pharisees - who where "lovers of money" were having a hard time listening to what Jesus was teaching. Luke 16:19 - in my understanding seems to be pointed at the Pharisee. Luke 16:15 sas "And he said to them" - referring to the Pharisees in verse 14.

It seems to me that Luke 16:19-31 is a very pointed and poignant illustration. By which the Pharisees could not miss, but understand. Still teaching in parable form - but so real that they should not have missed his meaning.

 

[Atonement]

My only concern with this thread is the scripture that you are using. You have quoted from Revelation (great book btw). But IMHO I don't think we get more accurate information until Revelation 21:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

We are being told in this Scripture that we will not remember the former things. I ask you a question, how can I or you or anyone in Heaven live forever in peace, in perfect love, in perfect harmony and yet we can see our loved ones burning in Hell forever? It's not until Revelation 21 that God blots out these former things. So in respect to your opening question, sure God knows what's going on right now, and I'm sure everyone in Heaven does, because God has yet blotted out the former.
That's my $0.02

 

[Guest]

Solo - would this mark the only time that Jesus (assuming your interpretation is correct) spoke - in a teaching manner - directly to the Pharisees without using a parable?

I am not good using the search function - but I thought we had a discussion one time about Jesus only taught in Parables when the Pharisees were around. Atleast, that is what I thought your contention was.

Perhaps I am incorrect.

 

[Solo]

Solo - would this mark the only time that Jesus (assuming your interpretation is correct) spoke - in a teaching manner - directly to the Pharisees without using a parable?

I am not good using the search function - but I thought we had a discussion one time about Jesus only taught in Parables when the Pharisees were around. Atleast, that is what I thought your contention was.

Perhaps I am incorrect.

Jesus was not teaching the Pharisees in the Luke 15-16 Scripture. The Pharisees were listening in to Jesus teaching the publicans and sinners and his disciples. Reread my previous post and you will see this clearly stated.

 

[jgredline]

jgredline,
From what I can find "ollumi", the word used for destruction in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, means ruin, made useless... in this case made eternally useless, forever ruined, prolonged. There are other derivatives of the word used as in the parable of the wineskins. They were "spoiled", ruined but not annihilated. In some cases the word apollumi is used for "lost" as in the parable of the lost sheep, the prodigal son and the lost coin. The sheep were lost, not annihilated and neither was the coin.
Eternally lost, everlasting ruin, is not a state of oblivion.

Everlasting, (prolonged form), seem to fit rather well together.

Potluck
Thanks for the info..This will be very helpful

 

[Rick W]

Veritas,
We stand at the crossroads of Heaven and Hell knowing both only by the scripture written. But we do know them as opposing states between the wicked and the righteous. And we know righteousness to be the grace given by God through His Son Jesus Christ. I don't think I have to get into the basic tenets of righteousness among the believers nor the mechanics thereof except to say we do know sin.

So will we yet know sin in the presence of the Father? For only by knowing sin can we decern the wicked. We will be one with God, the Son and the Holy Ghost not individuals as we are now, at least not at all as we know individuality in that our being is so encased or contained in a physical body of strict dimension.

Since Hell is the total separation from God, the total separation from anything good I don't see how we would "know" Hell for to do so would mean a complete or total separation does not really exist. As apart as we are now from God in a physical world I believe we will be just as apart from the realms of Hell. Do we now see anyone in Heaven? Or Hell? Again, as apart as we are now so shall we be in Heaven.

We want to view the spiritual world with the eyes we have now using words or situations as we know them in this world. And why not? It's all we have. Therefore we compare circumstances as we see them now. The very question, Will we see Hell?, testifies to this. And of course within that question are the emotions we know at present. Are there the same emotions in spirit? I really have no idea but we can't disclude the possiblity that things will be much different. That may seem "inhuman" and I suppose it is but then the spirit isn't exactly humanistic in form either. And as you know there are those that judge God using what is in us, again, the emotions, feelings of a physical world questioning His nature of love without acknowledging His nature of wrath.