Help stop Christians being tortured

[Gabe]

Sani, your post is not going to be deleted by me; I agree with it. It's even more of a shame that this petitions selling point that "they're Christians" is still not enough to persuade most Christians to take a stand against persecution of others.

 

[paisley]

Sanitarium, I agree with you but I think the point here is a family must care for its own and then look after others. The appeal here is to Christians that our brothers and sisters are being persecuted so we need to stand up for our family. You are right that this is a human rights issue, so the table can easily be turned and ask where are all the atheists and other religions standing for the rights of these individuals? But Christians know we can`t rely on others to come to our aid when our human rights are stomped upon and obviously from the response to this petition we can`t even rely on ourselves!!! So the shame is on us! If your own family won`t help you, then why would any one expect others to?
Moreover, I think Christians who do truly care about human rights, do care about mistreatment of all humans regardless of their faith or lack of faith. I know I do. I pray for Christians and nonChristians who are suffering and I`ve put my neck on the line for nonChristians before. I don`t like injustice or cruelty at all so for me cruelty is cruelty regardless of one`s faith. But this original post, I think, was addressed specifically to Christians on a Christian forum so it was appropriate to appeal to the family of God to help our brethern. Perhaps if the petition had been presented at a public venue, the appeal may have been more from a human rights standpoint. Anyway, I don`t know as an atheist if you feel a brotherhood with other atheists, but as a Christian I recognize and feel a genuine kinship with my brothers and sisters in Christ so when I hear of persecution of my family, it feels personal to me.

 

[paisley]

Sanitarium, I`d like to make one other point. I don`t know how familiar you are with what Christians do but Christians often reach out to help nonChristians. When the tidal wave hit Indonesia, muslim country, churches all over the world began collecting money and supplies to help the people. When Christians found out about the cruel treatment of the Romanian orphans and disabled children, they sent help. Christians often send medical, educational, monetary, and other aid to Africa to help the nonChristians who are suffering there. The list can go on and on. Obviously not all "Christians" care but then again the Bible says not everyone that proclaims to be a Christian is a Christian. The Bible says you will know a Christian by their love. If someone proclaims to be a Christian and can turn a blind eye to human misery, you have good reason to question if they are truly a Christian or not.

 

[Sanitarium]

Sanitarium, I agree with you but I think the point here is a family must care for its own and then look after others.

Yes but what I'm trying to point out that we are all one family - the human race.

You are right that this is a human rights issue, so the table can easily be turned and ask where are all the atheists and other religions standing for the rights of these individuals?

1. This is a tu quoque and reeks of 'passing the buck.' By the way, I signed the petition, even though I happen to know it is 100% useless.
2. Atheism is not a religion.
3. What makes you think the non-religious and the other religions aren't doing anything? Christianity, being the largest faith in the world, has the most 'pull' when it comes to affecting change.

But Christians know we can`t rely on others to come to our aid when our human rights are stomped upon and obviously from the response to this petition we can`t even rely on ourselves!!!

How do you know you can't rely on others to come to your aid? Let me give you 2 examples:
1. There is a user on Youtube called Venomfangx. He's a fundy Christian, who delights in misrepresenting Atheism, evolution & "what Atheists believe." Like many users on this forum, he ignorantly asserts that Atheism is a 'religion.'

One fine day, he made a video about Islam. The video did not contain many facts, and accused Islam of being a 'satanic religion.' So, the Muslims who saw it initiated a mass flagging campaign and got him kicked off Youtube.

It was the Atheists and agnostics who kicked up a fuss over it and complained until VenomfangX was reinstated. Even though they did not agree with anything that he posts on his channel, they still respected his right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the right to believe whatever he wanted. Oh and what did the Christians do? You got it - NOTHING. They just ranted about 'persecution' and waited for someone else to fix it.

So this one story alone proves that when you say that you 'can't rely on others' it is completely false.

2. I have never been a Muslim, never met a Muslim IRL, never had any contact with Muslims outside of the Internet. Therefore, Islam should be none of my business, right? No. I have spent 3 years in intensive study of Islam because I care about people. I spend a great deal of my time doing everything I can (not much admittedly since I am not there) to help the persecuted minorities in any way that I can. I don't care if they are Christian, Jew, Hindu, whatever!

And I personally certainly don't think "oh the Christians will deal with that" when it comes to Muslim on Christian persecution.

Therefore I personally am offended by your statement that you 'can't rely on others.' Just because that is your experience or what you've been taught, it does not make it true in the real world. Quite frankly your statement is like a perpetual persecution complex.

Of course I could come up with MANY more examples of non-Christians helping Christians or defending their rights, but two should suffice.

So the shame is on us! If your own family won`t help you, then why would any one expect others to?

This "family" example is a really bad one. My [entirely] Christian family have treated me the WORST. They disowned me when I rejected Christianity (couldn't stop using my brain). So, in my experience, "family" isn't worth much. I'm not interested in hearing your no true scotsman reply.

Moreover, I think Christians who do truly care about human rights, do care about mistreatment of all humans regardless of their faith or lack of faith. I know I do.

I'm glad to hear it.

and I`ve put my neck on the line for nonChristians before.

Are you saying that non-Christians don't help Christians but you help them?

But this original post, I think, was addressed specifically to Christians on a Christian forum so it was appropriate to appeal to the family of God to help our brethern.

1. I wasn't posting my comments specifically to the Christians on this forum (sorry I should have been clearer?). As stated, it was a general comment regarding Christians from my own experience; both online and offline.
2. This is the internet; everything is in the eyes of anyone who bothers to look.

Perhaps if the petition had been presented at a public venue, the appeal may have been more from a human rights standpoint.

The Internet is public.

Anyway, I don`t know as an atheist if you feel a brotherhood with other atheists

No, I feel a brotherhood with all humanity. We divide ourselves into groups but I have no such group (nor would I want one).

but as a Christian I recognize and feel a genuine kinship with my brothers and sisters in Christ so when I hear of persecution of my family, it feels personal to me.

Yes, this attitude is my point. If it's a Christian, it's 'worth the time' but if not, let someone else deal with it.

Again, not an attack on you personally, but from what I have experienced and read, it is a common attitutude - not just shared by Christians by the way.

 

[Sanitarium]

Sanitarium, I`d like to make one other point. I don`t know how familiar you are with what Christians do but Christians often reach out to help nonChristians. When the tidal wave hit Indonesia, muslim country, churches all over the world began collecting money and supplies to help the people. When Christians found out about the cruel treatment of the Romanian orphans and disabled children, they sent help.

Yes but here's the problem with your 'help' it is not 'no strings attached' - many from these countries who have experienced it call it 'food for conversion'. The primary goal (according to those who have seen it first hand) say that the primary goal is 'sharing the gospel' and then the aid.

Christians often send medical, educational, monetary, and other aid to Africa to help the nonChristians who are suffering there.

Yes, the catholic church. The Catholic church who say that condoms are sinful - and forbid their use even among those who are confirmed to have HIV or AIDS - thereby they don't use the condoms (they don't have any other source of info but the catholics), and they end up infecting more. More infections = more death. Again, in Africa, it seems that conversions are more important than actually helping the people. (my experience and that of people I have talked to from there).

Obviously not all "Christians" care but then again the Bible says not everyone that proclaims to be a Christian is a Christian.

Yes the "no true scotsman" logical fallacy.

The Bible says you will know a Christian by their love. If someone proclaims to be a Christian and can turn a blind eye to human misery, you have good reason to question if they are truly a Christian or not.

I already know this. This is why I said 'I hope the persecuted Christians are doing a better job of showing christ's love than you (Christians I was referring to)."

The bottom line is, it should not matter what religion you are - but that the religion should not prevent you (or give you reason) from helping others just because they do not happen to have the same beliefs as you.

This is why I am against Islam, it is inherently "Muslims ONLY" - and why I asked about the bible in my original post.

Thanks!

 

[paisley]

I must go to bed. It is very late here. So my mind is getting fuzzy but I will answer this, as best as my fuzzy mind will allow.

" we are all one family - the human race."

This is your way of thinking. Perhaps you feel as humans we live together, die together, and then it is all over. However, I`m a Christian so I believe we are far more than mere humans of flesh and bone. I believe we are spiritual beings that continue existing even after our bodies are decayed and gone. I believe there is an eternity before us, and now is the time to choose which eternal home we want to reside in. For me, I have chosen the family of God so I sincerely do not see my family as this world.

"This "family" example is a really bad one."

It sounds like you have a severed relationship with your earthly family so I can understand why you dislike my "example", but for me it is not an "example". For me, God is my Heavenly Father and my fellow Christians are my brothers and sisters. As for being disowned. I know how that feels. One side of my family disowned me too, but that has not tainted my understanding and recognition of the value of family. In fact, after I was disowned it made me realize all the more why family is so significant. Here is an example, just the other day I found out my son was being bullied to give other kids money. Because he is MY son, I discovered the problem very quickly simply b/c I knew he wasn`t acting like himself. So I went to the school where the incident was happening to talk with the teacher, and I was able to talk to the other parents. Fortunately everything got resolved quickly and peacefully but if this had been another child I never would have even known there was a problem. If I did know there was a problem, I would be stepping out of line to go to the school and to other parents instead of letting that child`s parents do it. Family has a role, a responsibility, and value. To say the human race is our family is not very personal. There has to be more to connect and identifiy family members than everyone walking on 2 feet and talking. A family should share common values, know about each other, etc. For me, I always feel refreshed when I spend time with my Christian family. It is a refreshment and excitement that I don`t feel in any other circle. I love my Christian family and I love spending time with them. There should be nothing wrong with identifying with other people as a family. The Christian family is inclusive though. If you want to be a member, the more the merrier!!!

As for nonChristians helping Christians, of course that happens! I didn`t mean to imply otherwise. What I said is we can`t "rely" on others to help us. Some people are not at all sympathetic with Christians. So we can`t realistically ask them to be sympathetic when a Christian`s rights are violated. If ppl come to our aid, we must be grateful but we can`t assume they will come, yet we should expect our family to come. So with this petition, I appreciate you signing it, but if you hadn`t I wouldn`t wag a finger at you like I would at a fellow Christian.

"This is the internet; everything is in the eyes of anyone who bothers to look."

Yes, but this is also a Christian forum so everyone knows when they enter this forum it is designed specifically for Christians although others are welcome to come in, but the target group is Christians.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Oh that's terrible.

 

[Hollis Mason]

This is really shameful and terrible.

 

[turnorburn]

Your partially right Gabe, Christians are few according to scripture, they must repent
of their sins and serve Christ. Muslims are promised bliss, virgins and just about
anything they could ever want, now boil it down, Christians go to heaven, Muslims
go where? they have religion we have Christ.


turnorburn