Hey You Pre-Tribbers!!!

[veteran]

Yeah, and I'm still looking for Bible evidence that when an angel appeared on earth in the physical realm they were born in flesh bodies.

 

[archangel_300]

Does that mean you're willing to accept that angels in God's Word are not in the flesh, and are of the heavenly order, and are a reality?

I never said anything about angels not being real?
I think most frequently they manifest themselves through visions.
But to materialize themselves in the physical flesh/body like we have, that I'm not quite certain about and am a bit skeptical. Why would the devil use possession instead of just literally manifesting himself in a human body with flesh and blood? I would assume if angels could materialize they would choose that route instead and demon possession wouldn't even exist.

That's very correct, One of the "three men" which appeared to Abraham at his tent door was our LORD. The other two men were the two angels which He sent into Sodom to get Lot's people out. But did you notice what those "three men" did when Abraham served food?

Gen 18:1-8
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
(KJV)

Our LORD and those two angels with Him were not in flesh bodies, so HOW were they able to eat and drink what Abraham prepared for them?

Fair enough, that's an interesting perspective on that passage.
I have always assumed that the three men was God manifesting himself as three distinct persons.
But there is not enough biblical evidence for me to prove that. It could be that this is the case or as you mentioned perhaps the Lord appeared with two angels in the flesh.

 

[veteran]

Does that mean you're willing to accept that angels in God's Word are not in the flesh, and are of the heavenly order, and are a reality?

I never said anything about angels not being real?
I think most frequently they manifest themselves through visions.
But to materialize themselves in the physical flesh/body like we have, that I'm not quite certain about and am a bit skeptical. Why would the devil use possession instead of just literally manifesting himself in a human body with flesh and blood? I would assume if angels could materialize they would choose that route instead and demon possession wouldn't even exist.

Why do you keep thinking an angel that appears on earth per God's Word has be in a flesh body? You're thinking of angels as being ghosts, and that's not Biblical. Ghosts are not able to eat man's food like the Gen.18 example. Nor does an angel need someone in the flesh to manifest through. Gen.18 showed that difference also. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and it was real. I see why you're confused, because you haven't believed what God's Word reveals about angels manifesting in this earthly dimension while their bodies were still of the heavenly order. What about the angels that appeared to Mary in our Lord's tomb after His resurrection? What about the angels which appeared to Christ's Apostles right after Jesus had ascended to Heaven per Acts 1? It sounds like you don't understand, nor believe those events.

That's very correct, One of the "three men" which appeared to Abraham at his tent door was our LORD. The other two men were the two angels which He sent into Sodom to get Lot's people out. But did you notice what those "three men" did when Abraham served food?

Gen 18:1-8
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
(KJV)

Our LORD and those two angels with Him were not in flesh bodies, so HOW were they able to eat and drink what Abraham prepared for them?

Fair enough, that's an interesting perspective on that passage.
I have always assumed that the three men was God manifesting himself as three distinct persons.
But there is not enough biblical evidence for me to prove that. It could be that this is the case or as you mentioned perhaps the Lord appeared with two angels in the flesh.

That was our Lord Jesus in the Old Testament appearing to Abraham, along with two angels that were sent into Sodom to get Lot and his people out. They were called "three men" to show they had the image of man, and were not simply ghosts. In all Bible cases of angels appearing to flesh man, they always have the image and appearance of men. And afterall, what image likeness did God create both the angels and Adam with? The image of man, from His Own Likeness. The image of man originates in the heavenly with God's Image, and not with flesh man. This is very important to understand or one won't properly understand what the resurrection is about.

 

[archangel_300]

Why do you keep thinking an angel that appears on earth per God's Word has be in a flesh body? You're thinking of angels as being ghosts, and that's not Biblical. Ghosts are not able to eat man's food like the Gen.18 example. Nor does an angel need someone in the flesh to manifest through. Gen.18 showed that difference also. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and it was real. I see why you're confused, because you haven't believed what God's Word reveals about angels manifesting in this earthly dimension while their bodies were still of the heavenly order. What about the angels that appeared to Mary in our Lord's tomb after His resurrection? What about the angels which appeared to Christ's Apostles right after Jesus had ascended to Heaven per Acts 1? It sounds like you don't understand, nor believe those events.

No I'm afraid Jacob was wrestling with God not an angel. Typical misinterpretation of the scriptures, I'm not surprised at this point.
Genesis 32:28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.â€

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says:“ Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.â€

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool�[a]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Again the most frequent way angels manifest themselves is either through dreams/visions.
There is no proof that what Mary saw at the tomb were visions of heavenly angels or maybe angels manifest in the flesh body. There is no proof in the book of Acts that those were even heavenly angels, they could have been just mere men. Again, like I said this is a typical example of misinterpreting the scriptures. It is important to extract the message from the word and not make assumptions into it.

 

[Sinthesis]

Why do you keep thinking an angel that appears on earth per God's Word has be in a flesh body? You're thinking of angels as being ghosts, and that's not Biblical. Ghosts are not able to eat man's food like the Gen.18 example. Nor does an angel need someone in the flesh to manifest through. Gen.18 showed that difference also. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and it was real. I see why you're confused, because you haven't believed what God's Word reveals about angels manifesting in this earthly dimension while their bodies were still of the heavenly order. What about the angels that appeared to Mary in our Lord's tomb after His resurrection? What about the angels which appeared to Christ's Apostles right after Jesus had ascended to Heaven per Acts 1? It sounds like you don't understand, nor believe those events.

No I'm afraid Jacob was wrestling with God not an angel. Typical misinterpretation of the scriptures, I'm not surprised at this point.
Genesis 32:28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.â€

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says:“ Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.â€

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool�[a]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Again the most frequent way angels manifest themselves is either through dreams/visions.
There is no proof that what Mary saw at the tomb were visions of heavenly angels or maybe angels manifest in the flesh body. There is no proof in the book of Acts that those were even heavenly angels, they could have been just mere men. Again, like I said this is a typical example of misinterpreting the scriptures. It is important to extract the message from the word and not make assumptions into it.

Exactly; there is no proof either way. One can learn from Paul and just acknowledge that sometimes our perceptions of the means God uses to impart His messages are indeterminate.

• 2Cr 12:2 - I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
  2Cr 12:3 - And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
  2Cr 12:4 - how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.{NKJV}

 

[veteran]

Why do you keep thinking an angel that appears on earth per God's Word has be in a flesh body? You're thinking of angels as being ghosts, and that's not Biblical. Ghosts are not able to eat man's food like the Gen.18 example. Nor does an angel need someone in the flesh to manifest through. Gen.18 showed that difference also. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and it was real. I see why you're confused, because you haven't believed what God's Word reveals about angels manifesting in this earthly dimension while their bodies were still of the heavenly order. What about the angels that appeared to Mary in our Lord's tomb after His resurrection? What about the angels which appeared to Christ's Apostles right after Jesus had ascended to Heaven per Acts 1? It sounds like you don't understand, nor believe those events.

No I'm afraid Jacob was wrestling with God not an angel. Typical misinterpretation of the scriptures, I'm not surprised at this point.
Genesis 32:28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.â€

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels He says:“ Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.â€

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool�[a]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Again the most frequent way angels manifest themselves is either through dreams/visions.
There is no proof that what Mary saw at the tomb were visions of heavenly angels or maybe angels manifest in the flesh body. There is no proof in the book of Acts that those were even heavenly angels, they could have been just mere men. Again, like I said this is a typical example of misinterpreting the scriptures. It is important to extract the message from the word and not make assumptions into it.

You must struggle with Scripture like this too then...

Gen 22:11-12
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from Me."
(KJV)

Gen 31:11-13
11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12 And He said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto Me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
(KJV)

That "angel of the LORD" and "angel of God" was... The LORD Himself. The word angel there is Hebrew ma'lak, which is the equivalent to Greek aggelos, which means 'messenger, ambassador, a deputy'. It does NOT mean The LORD is an angel in the created being sense, for of course He is not. In the Gen.31:11-13 case, that "angel of God" says He is The "God of Bethel".

Luke 24:4-5
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
(KJV)

John 20:11-12
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
(KJV)

You're simply in DENIAL of The Scriptures as written on the matter of angelic appearances to God's servants in The Bible. What was that you said, there's no proof that Mary saw angels at our Lord's tomb?

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
(KJV)

Where is it written in God's Word that seeing angels manifest on earth only means a dream/vision? And where is it written that angels must be born in the flesh to appear to God's servants on earth? I guess the food Abraham prepared for the "three men" in Gen.18 was not real food either, but just a vision or dream of food. The more one considers how you understand those events gets crazier the more one thinks about it.

 

[veteran]

[Exactly; there is no proof either way. One can learn from Paul and just acknowledge that sometimes our perceptions of the means God uses to impart His messages are indeterminate.

• 2Cr 12:2 - I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
  2Cr 12:3 - And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
  2Cr 12:4 - how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.{NKJV}

No, God's Word gives us all the proof we require. The only difference is that some refuse to believe the simplicity of God's Word.

Judg 6:21
21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.
(KJV)

Hosea 12:2-5
2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
(KJV)

Matt 28:1-2
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
(KJV)

Luke 1:26-28
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(KJV)


Acts 12:7-10
7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.
10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.
(KJV)

 

[archangel_300]

You must struggle with Scripture like this too then...

Gen 22:11-12
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from Me."
(KJV)

Gen 31:11-13
11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
12 And He said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto Me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
(KJV)

That "angel of the LORD" and "angel of God" was... The LORD Himself. The word angel there is Hebrew ma'lak, which is the equivalent to Greek aggelos, which means 'messenger, ambassador, a deputy'. It does NOT mean The LORD is an angel in the created being sense, for of course He is not. In the Gen.31:11-13 case, that "angel of God" says He is The "God of Bethel".

Luke 24:4-5
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
(KJV)

John 20:11-12
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
(KJV)

You're simply in DENIAL of The Scriptures as written on the matter of angelic appearances to God's servants in The Bible. What was that you said, there's no proof that Mary saw angels at our Lord's tomb?

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
(KJV)

Where is it written in God's Word that seeing angels manifest on earth only means a dream/vision? And where is it written that angels must be born in the flesh to appear to God's servants on earth? I guess the food Abraham prepared for the "three men" in Gen.18 was not real food either, but just a vision or dream of food. The more one considers how you understand those events gets crazier the more one thinks about it.

LOL... but veteran, I NEVER said that Mary didn't see angels at the Lord's tomb.
We know for a fact that heavenly angels manifest themselves through visions. There are many scriptures that show this. Can heavenly angels manifest themselves in the flesh is another question...

Your post about the "angel of the Lord" being God himself confirms the fact that it's difficult to discern
in scripture when the Bible is referring to a "heavenly" angel or an "earthly human" messenger or
even God Himself. There must be clear evidence in the surrounding context in which this word is used to be able to draw a solid conclusion. I've seen this term used for God I believe in the story of Gideon and God assigned himself the term "angel of the Lord"

When we look at John 20 and the Bible states Mary saw two angels how do you know for a fact this is a
heavenly angel? Is it just because they were dressed in white? There is no real evidence one way or
another, the scriptures just declare them as being "angels".

Most importantly Is there a different greek/hebrew word used for heavenly angels? If there is then we
can go through all the passages of scriptures to see the real identities when the word angel is being used.

 

[veteran]

LOL... but veteran, I NEVER said that Mary didn't see angels at the Lord's tomb.
We know for a fact that heavenly angels manifest themselves through visions. There are many scriptures that show this. Can heavenly angels manifest themselves in the flesh is another question...

I perceive you are not sincere, for you wrote, and I quote:
"There is no proof that what Mary saw at the tomb were visions of heavenly angels or maybe angels manifest in the flesh body."

And now that I've shown you Scripture to contrary of what you stated, you want to deny what you wrote earlier. You have tried to attack my integrity in declaring the Scriptures to you, when it's obvious you aren't familiar with enough of God's Word to be able to make such an attack. I see no reason to continue conversations with you.

 

[archangel_300]

I perceive you are not sincere, for you wrote, and I quote:
"There is no proof that what Mary saw at the tomb were visions of heavenly angels or maybe angels manifest in the flesh body."

And now that I've shown you Scripture to contrary of what you stated, you want to deny what you wrote earlier. You have tried to attack my integrity in declaring the Scriptures to you, when it's obvious you aren't familiar with enough of God's Word to be able to make such an attack. I see no reason to continue conversations with you.

But veteran... that's not what I meant. You have misinterpreted what I was saying.
I believe that the argument you were trying to initially make was that angels manifest themselves in the physical realm with a "glorified heavenly body". If I'm not mistaken thats the argument you were trying to make because you stated previously during the great tribulation Satan was cast out of heaven and cast INTO an earthly physical body. This was your proof for the anti christ and why Rev 12 is referring to the end times. (am I correct?)

You then brought up Mary seeing angels at the tomb and what I'm trying to say is the following:
There is no proof that
1. Mary saw a vision of heavenly angels at the tomb
OR
2. Mary saw actual heavenly angels manifest in a physical "heavenly" body

Seeing that heavenly angels frequently manifest themselves in dreams/visions. I would not be surprised if Mary saw heavenly angels being manifest via a vision. But I believe the Bible is silent about this. And the fact that the word angel means "messenger" and not necessarily a heavenly angel we have to be careful on how we interpret the scripture here. I don't dispute the fact that Mary saw angels.

 

[Vic C.]

Now how did you all get into discussing angels?

Isn't this supposed to be a thread on the pros and cons of PreTrib?

 

[archangel_300]

Now how did you all get into discussing angels?

Isn't this supposed to be a thread on the pros and cons of PreTrib?

This thread went all over the place. Pretrib has been fatally fried to a crisp so we had to bring in more food to the table.

The gap theory also shows up in this thread too.