Bible Study How Can These Be Reconciled?

[st_worm2]

Sounds good. Should we start at the top with Exodus 33:11?

 

[st_worm2]

Here's that passage:

7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.
8 And it came about, whenever Moses went out to the tent, that all the people would arise and stand, each at the entrance of his tent, and gaze after Moses until he entered the tent.
9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses.
10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent.
11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent. ~Exodus 33​

What do you think? This seems to be 100% in the physical world to me.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Sounds good. Should we start at the top with Exodus 33:11?

I suggest we go back to Genesis where God walked in the Garden with Adam.......
Gen 3:8 When they heard the voice of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden during the breeze of the day, the man and his wife concealed themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Sounds pretty physical to me though this was pre-fall announcement......

 

[st_worm2]

That sounds pretty "physical" to me. In fact, it sounds like our progenitors knew what He looked like. But how can that be true if, "no one has seen God at any time" John 1:18 .. "nor can they" (see Him) 1 Timothy 6:16?

 

[civilwarbuff]

We have Enoch as well.....Gen 5:24
Again, sounds pretty physical......

 

[st_worm2]

We can't really get into this. I believe it's against the rules.

Ahh. IOW, the "Trinity" doctrine that you espouse does not line up with the orthodox understanding/teaching of the church, yes? Is there a board here that's made for such discussions?

 

[st_worm2]

We have Enoch as well.....Gen 5:24
Again, sounds pretty physical......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Not sure they have a forum for discussing things like this......let me ask them....

 

[Butch5]

Ahh. IOW, the "Trinity" doctrine that you espouse does not line up with the orthodox understanding/teaching of the church, yes? Is there a board here that's made for such discussions?

My understanding is the original understanding. I don't if there is a section that it can be discussed or not.

 

[civilwarbuff]

My understanding is the original understanding. I don't if there is a section that it can be discussed or not.

I PM'd reba with the question if there is a forum for this type of discussion.....

 

[Butch5]

Hey Brother, I've struggled to understand verses like John 1:18/1 Timothy 6:15-16 in light of all the OT verses that seem to contradict them. We know Jesus is God and we know that many have seen Him, so when He tells us that "no one has seen God at any time", I assume that He is referring to His Father. But then we have verses that clearly tell us that certain men 'have' seen God. So my question is, what do we do about that?

I happened upon John 12:41 again recently, which refers to these verses in the Book of Isaiah:

1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
5 Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” ~Isaiah 6
​

If you read through the passage that John 12:41 is contained in, it's hard to miss the fact that St. John places Jesus/God the Son on the throne there, not God the Father which, if true, finally allows us to reconcile MOST of the verses that seem to contradict one another in this regard (see my OP above).

As a result, I have begun to wonder if every "physical" appearance of God in the OT was actually made by Jesus (in His pre-incarnate state), instead of the Father. This would mean, for instance, that the finger that wrote the Ten Commandments on top of Mt. Sinai is the same finger that drew on the ground before the angry mob in John 8.

But there is also Acts 7:56 to consider, and what it says may end up throwing a "monkey wrench" in my new theory, so if you have any ideas about any of this, they would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

--David

​

David,

I agree that the appearances of God in the OT were Jesus. John said,

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

This is also what the early Christians taught.

 

[Butch5]

I PM'd reba with the question if there is a forum for this type of discussion.....

OK, cool.

 

[reba]

MY answer is i am not sure ... we shall find out..

 

[dirtfarmer]

I suggest we go back to Genesis where God walked in the Garden with Adam.......
Gen 3:8 When they heard the voice of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden during the breeze of the day, the man and his wife concealed themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Sounds pretty physical to me though this was pre-fall announcement......

hello civilwarbuff, dirtfarmer here

Genesis 3:8 didn't that God was walking in the garden, but that "they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day."

In verse 10 it is stated that Adam said; " I heard thy voice in the garden,"

 

[st_worm2]

Hi dirtfarmer, the NASB, NKJV, NIV, and ESV all translate קוֹל [qol] as "sound", rather than "voice", which makes sense contextually (since "voices" are not generally referred to as things that "walk" ;)). By v10, it seems like Adam is talking directly to God, explaining to Him why he decided to hide from Him.

And by v21 we read that the Lord "clothed/dressed them" in "garments of skin" (which at least appears to mean that they were still standing in His physical presence).

Yours and His,
David

8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. ~Genesis 3

 

[Pegasus]

How do you reconcile these various passages/verses?

"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." ~Exodus 33:11

////////////

17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” ~Exodus 33

////////////

"In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple." ~Isaiah 6:1

/////////////

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." ~John 1:18

//////////////

"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." ~1 Timothy 6:15-16

//////////// (Edit: Here is one additional verse to consider)

Stephen said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ~Acts 7:56

//////////// (Edit2: Here is another additional verse to consider and add into the mix above)

“God is spirit” ~John 4:24
​

In the NT, both the Lord Jesus and St. Paul make it clear that no one has seen God (nor can they see Him), but the OT appears to disagree with that. On top of that, the OT also seems to contradict itself (i.e. Exodus 33:11 vs Exodus 33:20).

So again, how can these passages be reconciled with one another?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
Edit3: p.s. - my proposition, that I'd like to either prove or disprove, is this: The physical appearances of God in the OT were all made by God the Son, not by His Father (who is "Spirit" and who "no one has seen").

"These things Isaiah said because he saw
His glory, and he spoke of Him"
John 12:41​

Levels of revelation. All leads to the question: Is the Son of God Jesus Christ YHWH. I believe the answer is Yes.

 

[Chopper]

Here's an ideas....Keil & Delitzsch say this....“face to face, as a man talks with his friend” (Exo_33:11); that is to say, not from the distance of heaven, through any kind of medium whatever, but “mouth to mouth,” as it is called in Num_12:8, as closely and directly as friends talk to one another. “These words indicate, therefore, a familiar conversation, just as much as if it had been said, that God appeared to Moses in some peculiar form of manifestation. If any one objects to this, that it is at variance with the assertion which we shall come to presently, 'Thou canst not see My face,' the answer is a very simple one. Although Jehovah showed Himself to Moses in some peculiar form of manifestation, He never appeared in His own essential glory, (bold mine)but only in such a mode as human weakness could bear. (used by permission, e-Sword)

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hey Brother, I've struggled to understand verses like John 1:18/1 Timothy 6:15-16 in light of all the OT verses that seem to contradict them. We know Jesus is God and we know that many have seen Him, so when He tells us that "no one has seen God at any time", I assume that He is referring to His Father. But then we have verses that clearly tell us that certain men 'have' seen God. So my question is, what do we do about that?

I happened upon John 12:41 again recently, which refers to these verses in the Book of Isaiah:

1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory.”
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
5 Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.” ~Isaiah 6
​

If you read through the passage that John 12:41 is contained in, it's hard to miss the fact that St. John places Jesus/God the Son on the throne there, not God the Father which, if true, finally allows us to reconcile MOST of the verses that seem to contradict one another in this regard (see my OP above).

As a result, I have begun to wonder if every "physical" appearance of God in the OT was actually made by Jesus (in His pre-incarnate state), instead of the Father. This would mean, for instance, that the finger that wrote the Ten Commandments on top of Mt. Sinai is the same finger that drew on the ground before the angry mob in John 8.

But there is also Acts 7:56 to consider, and what it says may end up throwing a "monkey wrench" in my new theory, so if you have any ideas about any of this, they would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

--David

​

I was all set to explain that position and before I finished reading you had stated it. For more light on these appearances go to John 1:1-5 wjere we find Jesus is Creator God and nowhere in scripture do I find a single scripture that, when read in context, refutes or might be bent to disagree with that view of the appearances of God.

 

[st_worm2]

I was all set to explain that position and before I finished reading you had stated it. For more light on these appearances go to John 1:1-5 wjere we find Jesus is Creator God and nowhere in scripture do I find a single scripture that, when read in context, refutes or might be bent to disagree with that view of the appearances of God.

Thanks Bill I never considered the possibility of this until I heard Micheal Card singing about it. Perhaps I heard it taught but didn't pay as much attention to it as I should have over the last 30 years, but I don't think so. You know, it's simply amazing how powerful music/songs can be, which is why I am saddened at the lack of worship music that focuses on the Lord, the church, and doctrine these days. If it hadn't been for the hymns I would have never known any doctrine at all as a kid, and kids today rarely get anything like it.

Since then I've become more and more in awe of just Who it was who walked among us for 33 years, and thereby more and more in awe of God (Colossians 1:16-17 not only adding to our understanding of what the Lord was responsible for in Creation, but the fact that He sustains it all as well, down to the subatomic level).

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[Jim Parker]

How do you reconcile these various passages/verses?

"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." ~Exodus 33:11

////////////

17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” ~Exodus 33

////////////

"In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple." ~Isaiah 6:1

/////////////

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." ~John 1:18

//////////////

"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." ~1 Timothy 6:15-16

//////////// (Edit: Here is one additional verse to consider)

Stephen said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ~Acts 7:56

//////////// (Edit2: Here is another additional verse to consider and add into the mix above)

“God is spirit” ~John 4:24
​

In the NT, both the Lord Jesus and St. Paul make it clear that no one has seen God (nor can they see Him), but the OT appears to disagree with that. On top of that, the OT also seems to contradict itself (i.e. Exodus 33:11 vs Exodus 33:20).

So again, how can these passages be reconciled with one another?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
Edit3: p.s. - my proposition, that I'd like to either prove or disprove, is this: The physical appearances of God in the OT were all made by God the Son, not by His Father (who is "Spirit" and who "no one has seen").

"These things Isaiah said because he saw
His glory, and he spoke of Him"
John 12:41​

"Face to face" is a metaphor.

iakov the fool