How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[Solo]

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:1-21

 

[DivineNames]

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus is the seed and look it is counted through the woman...Imagine that...

"The incredible quantum leap of faith required in order to accept and believe the claim that Genesis 3:15 is a messianic prophecy, that the seed of Eve referred to therein can be distinctly and unambiguously identified as pointing at a specific individual, Jesus, is simply astonishing."

http://www.messiahtruth.com/gen315.html

If you have that much faith bb, then good for you!


(also, I have been told- "zera doesn't mean seed. It means the physical offspring that results from a man or a woman. In other words sperm or ovum that doesn't result in a child is not zera")


When I read it, it doesn't look like it has anything to do with Jesus to me-

Genesis 3 - (11)And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" (12) The man said, "The woman you put here with meâ€â€she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." (13) Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." (14) So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. (15) And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (16) To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (NIV)

 

[Lonelyguide]

If it were up to me, which it isn't, and that is the main point since you said that I threatened; I would pull the plug now and be done with it, but I am not God, so you should thank Him for His continued patience and longsuffering with those who reject him and refuse to believe.

So what does it tell you, Solo, that our Father has not "pulled the plug?" Could it be that your doctrine lacks ... to put it mildly ... a "certain amount" of understanding of His, that His is a doctrine of Love, Patience and Humility, and that yours thererefore does not match His? Then what does that tell you about your doctrine?

Learning ... true learning ... involves change, Solo, and one can only learn when one sets aside the willfulness which makes one act like a teacher and when one shows the willingness to again be a disciple/pupil.

 

[Solo]

Since living apart from God is the choice of the unbelievers it is their unbelief that takes them to eternal condemnation and separation from God the creator.

Not really. To judge a person on whether they have faith in the theories of a particular religion is silly as I have previously mentioned. No morally perfect God is going to make salvation a meaningless lottery, where if you have faith in x you are saved, and if you have faith in y you are damned.

According to the Word of God all men/women will be judged according to their works. All mankind is condemned already and God has provided a way for all mankind to be spared the penalty of this condemnation through Jesus Christ. Many, many reject this path and would rather live in the path that the Bible calls darkness. That is their choice to live in darkness, and they will be judged for their beliefs, their works, their sin, etc.

Has the committed Muslim or Jew or Hindu really chosen to "live apart from God"? It seems obvious that the opposite is true.

What may seem obvious to you is tainted by your finite understanding of the things of God. We are drawn of God to his son, and those that are drawn and reject him have chosen to live in the darkness instead of the light. God knows the heart of every man, woman, and child and he is the judge. Will there be Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Wiccans, New Agers condemned to eternal separation from God in a place of torment? Yes, those that rejected a belief in God through Jesus Christ.

If it were up to me... I would pull the plug now and be done with it

"If it was up to me who would go to hell, I would already have had it done, and believers would be in the presence of God"


Lets be clear about what you are saying in the quote. Lets be clear about how your mind works. If it was up to you who would go to hell, if you had such power, you would choose to send all the non-Christians, and you would do it immediately. You would send them all to be tortured for all eternity.

For an unbiased understanding I will say again in a few more words so that you don't get the temptation to twist my words into a negative:

If it were up to my choice, I would call an end to this sinful existance today, so that a glorious existence with the Lord God could begin. In calling an end to the sinful existance today would require that God's plan would be meted out to the inhabitants of this creation for all time where they would be judged. The non-Christians would be judged and they would be sent to their eternal separation from God which is not a nice place to be. This would be my choice to end all of the ungodliness of the world today; but keep in mind that I have a finite, mortal, fleshly portion of existance that grows weary of the garbage, but my born again mind and spiritual understanding is that God knows better. It is he whom I trust, and it is he who is patient and long-suffering, and it is he who knows the time of the end when the plug will be pulled.

Therefore, thank God that the plan is not run according to the fleshly aspects of Solo that longs for the day when all is right, whether all are saved yet or not, and that God almighty is in control and knows all things, and is working to the plans perfect fullfillment.

You still have time to repent and believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins; whereby you can be born of God, born again to be redeemed when Jesus returns. It is Jesus who died on the cross for all mankinds sins, and it is Jesus Christ who resurrected from the dead so that all who repent and believe the Word of God might have the hope of the same resurrection.

 

[Solo]

If it were up to me, which it isn't, and that is the main point since you said that I threatened; I would pull the plug now and be done with it, but I am not God, so you should thank Him for His continued patience and longsuffering with those who reject him and refuse to believe.

So what does it tell you, Solo, that our Father has not "pulled the plug?" Could it be that your doctrine lacks ... to put it mildly ... a "certain amount" of understanding of His, that His is a doctrine of Love, Patience and Humility, and that yours thererefore does not match His? Then what does that tell you about your doctrine?

Learning ... true learning ... involves change, Solo, and one can only learn when one sets aside the willfulness which makes one act like a teacher and when one shows the willingness to again be a disciple/pupil.

The Bible teaches that believers have a corrupt, mortal flesh that they drag around with them until they are redeemed at the coming of Jesus. When a believer sees the nasty sinfulness of life in this world, it is a natural response to be sick and tired of it, and thoughts that it would be better to be with Jesus than it is to be in this sinful world arise. Even with this natural response, it is necessary to live in the Spirit which knows that God is handling business in a perfect solidly loving just manner which is much more better than anything the natural man can conceive.

The point that I was making is that mankind can tell you many, many things that could be based on a natural intellect apart from God's grace, but there is still an opportunity to be saved while he refrains from ending this age.

 

[Guest]

I just don't know what to believe. The more I read on both religions, the more I just sway back and forth. I understand and can see exactly what the jews think about Jesus and the "NT". I can step outside the box and try my best to see and understand where the jews are coming from. I also am having a very difficult time denying Jesus. All I know is my life was changed 9 years ago by God, I was reading Genesis 6:5-7 and realized that my actions in life were hurting God, I dont even think he cared or was a God who cared. The rest is where I am having a hard time with, if my life was changed, and I professed Jesus as God, how can what I went through be not real? my life really changed, I did a complete 360 and lived for God. Well after reading that part in Genesis my life was changed. I had no idea what was happening. My brother was a christian and he showed me in the bible were Jesus was God, and I believed that was true because it was in the bible(christian bible). After finding that out I felt an overwhelming amount of love from God. I believed Jesus was God and that he died for me, so i guess it was that love he had for me just gave me the chills, in a good way. Thats what I am struggling with, if that was God that changed my life, and if God is not Jesus, then what was I feeling? If I was worshipping an idol why would God allow that? was it really God at all? I can easily admit that most of the prophecies that christians say are messanic are taken out of context and misused. I see the tricks that christians use to witness, like if one person fills just 8 of these prophecies it is like taking a red quarter and filling the state of Texas with quarters knee high and having one pick and finding the red quarter. I think that is a lie, the prophecies christians use are generally vague, loose, and can be filled by allot of people who live normal daily lives. I can see the contradictions in the "NT" between Paul and the Gospels( Paul abolished the law, while Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it, once saved always saved taught by Paul, but Jesus taught you must live right), the book of Matthew is very shaky. Jesus never wrote any of this stuff, it was atleast 30+ years after his life that this was written, if he was God why wasn't this stuff recorded right then, if he was God why wouldn't he leave any writings or teachings or pass down anything to the discples during his life on earth?
The incredible miracles and raising the dead, nut nowhere in world history is Jesus mentioned by his contempories(outside the NT) except by Josephes and even that most scholars agree was tampered with.

 

[Solo]

DavidDavid,
God bless you, and may God the Father give you his peace and understanding as you read his Word. The following verses were laid on my heart as I prayed for you this evening. I pray that they help give you peace, and if you ever have questions you are welcome to PM me at any time.

Michael

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31-34

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:6-13

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:22-29

 

[bibleberean]

I had to clean up a few posts from the last few days. We need to keep this on the topic of how to witness to Jews and the problems we will have doing that.

Thanks,

Robert

 

[bibleberean]

Here is some information that will explain and help people who truly want to understand the problem of witnessing to Jews for the sake of winning them to Christ.

Jew and Gentile
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

"As has been said the Jews had their origin in the morning time of history when God called Abraham, a Shemite, to be the father of a new nation. Ge 12:1-3. God appeared to Abraham 10 times. These appearances were called "Theophanies," and were progressive and unconditional in their promises, and the promises were unconditionally confirmed to Abraham's son Isaac (Ge 26:1-4), and to his grandson Jacob. Ge 28:10-15.

The history of the Jewish race is without a parallel in human history. Though oppressed, downtrodden, carried captive to other lands and scattered through the nations, the Jew has outlived all his conquerors and walks unscathed amid the nations. Any other race would have been swallowed up and its identity and national characteristics lost. The preservation of the Jewish race is the "MIRACLE OF HISTORY." Their "Emblem" is a "BUSH BURNING AND UNCONSUMED."

No nation has ever had such manifest and visible tokens of the "Divine Presence." For them the Red Sea was driven back and the Jordan parted. They were miraculously fed in the Wilderness and Divinely sheltered and guided by the "Pillar of Cloud and Fire." At the blowing of "ram's horns" the walls of a besieged city fell (Jos 6:1-27), and the Sun and Moon stayed in their courses that they might have time to slay their enemies. Jos 10:12-14. The "Angel of the Lord" encamped about them, and one angel slew 185,000 of the army of Assyria for their deliverance. 2Ki 19:35. No nation has given to the world such a number of great men. Such a man of faith as Abraham; such a great leader and lawgiver as Moses; such statesmen as Joseph in Egypt and Daniel in Babylon; such a king as David, and wise man as Solomon. No nation has produced such "seers" as the Hebrew Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel, and no such man as that man above all men, the "MAN OF GALILEE."

In the first Christian century there is no name that shines more resplendent than that of the Apostle Paul. And in modern days the men who have made and are making history are JEWS.

How are we to account for the wonderful preservation of the Jewish Race? Only on the supposition that God had, and still has, some great work for them to do. In the first place they were raised up to reaffirm and teach that there was but ONE God. In the second place to be the Writers, Preservers and Transmitters of the Holy Scriptures. To them were committed the "ORACLES of God." Ro 3:1-2.

Every page and book in the Bible was written by Jews. The Jews took especial care to preserve the Scriptures and keep them from being tampered with. In the third place they were raised up that God through them might give the world a SAVIOUR. Who was Jesus? A JEW. In the fourth place they were raised up that they might save the world from moral putrefaction. When Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews" (Joh 4:22), did He simply mean that from them should come the Saviour--Jesus? or did He mean, as when He said-- "YE Are the `SALT OF THE EARTH," that the Jewish Race were to be the means of preventing the "Moral Putrefaction" of the world, and that if they became extinct as a nation the world would be ripe for judgment? The writer thinks he meant the latter, and that the salvation of the Nations, morally and physically, and the preservation of the human race on the earth depends on the preservation and continuance of the Jews as a RACE.

The present degenerate condition of the world is owing to the fact that the Jews have lost their savor, as the salt its saltness, and until they recover it degeneration will continue to develop until the time comes that the smell of the decomposition of the decaying nationalities of the earth shall call for Divine interposition and the Jewish SALT be resavored by the conversion of the Jews, and their becoming the leading nation of the world.

For the Jews today there is no "Pillar of Cloud" by day, nor "Shechinah Flame" by night. They have no altars, no sacrifices, no priesthood as in former days. They observe the "Passover," but no paschal lamb is slain. They keep the "Great Day of Atonement," but no blood is shed to make reconciliation for sin. All sacrifices and oblations have ceased. They have no King, no judges, no Prophets, no inspired writers. The "Urim" and "Thummin" give no Divine token. The word of God is precious, but there is no "open vision." Their last Great Prophet was the "Man of Galilee," but Him they rejected. Like their forefathers, who took Joseph, after they had rejected him, and sold him for 20 pieces of silver, and he was hidden from their view in Egypt on the Throne of Pharaoh, so the Jews took Jesus, their Joseph, and having rejected Him, sold Him for 30 pieces of silver, and He is now hidden from them on His Father's Throne.

Why Is This? Have they been supplanted as a "Nation" by the Gentiles, and as "God's People" by the Church? Are they never again to have a land of their own, and a King, and a Capital City, and a National Existence?

Is not their condition today the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ho 3:4? "The Children of Israel shall abide MANY DAYS without a King, and without a Prince, and without a Sacrifice, and without an Image, and without an Ephod, and without Teraphim?"

Is it not that Jerusalem must be-- "Trodden down of the Gentiles until the `Times of the Gentiles' be fulfilled?" Lu 21:24.

What does Paul say-- "Blindness in part is happened to Israel until the `Fulness of the Gentiles' be come in. And so All Israel Shall Be Saved." Ro 11:25-26.

From these scriptures we see that the Jews have not been supplanted by either the Gentiles or the Church, and when the time comes they will again become a nation.

We indulge in no idle and profitless speculations when we attempt to forecast the future of the Jewish People. All we have to do is to gather together and place in their logical order what the Holy Spirit through the Prophets, has foretold. The method is as simple as the result is sure."

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I had to clean up a few posts from the last few days. We need to keep this on the topic of how to witness to Jews and the problems we will have doing that.

Yes, unfortunately, staying on topic is nearly an impossibility for most any thread - sometimes you have to regroup

That being said, I would like to point out what I feel is a most fundamental fact that escapes most evangelical Christians on this issue. Witnessing to Jews (or any other non-believers in the NT) by quoting the NT has little impact. They may find it informative to hear what the NT has to say on related subjects, but the Christian tends to wield NT verses as a bludgeon, as if the recitation of such is proof in and of itself. It may be overly simplistic, but necessary, to point out that Jews don't believe the NT is part of the Word of God. How many times have Christians on this thread alone begun an answer by saying - "The Word of God says..." and then quote a NT passage? It's no different from a moslem trying to convert a Christian by quoting the Koran. Pointing out fulfillment of OT prophecy in the NT? Firstly, there are very strong arguments against the context of these supposed fulfillments as we've been examining, but even if there weren't, how does the Jew (or anyone skeptical of Christianity) know that these fulfillments were not retroactively penciled in to garnish the legend of Jesus and provide "proof" of his Messiahship? There is evidence to show that the NT texts have been altered since their inception, how much is anyone's guess, and even if they weren't, how do we know the original manuscripts told the truth in the first place? How much legend in the story of Jesus was tacked on before it was even originally written down - when the tale was only
orally transmitted for decades?

These are some basic, yet prodigious obstacles for an informed Jew to accepting Christ as descibed by evangelicals. Christians would do well to try and imagine, for the moment, that they themselves were not convinced of the gospel, that they were perhaps Jewish, being aware of the history of persecution of Jews by Christian nations/societies, ( even at times physically persecuted by those trying to evangelize them) then add to that the logistical problems with merely accepting the NT because it says it's the word of God.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I had to clean up a few posts from the last few days. We need to keep this on the topic of how to witness to Jews and the problems we will have doing that.

Yes, unfortunately, staying on topic is nearly an impossibility for most any thread - sometimes you have to regroup

That being said, I would like to point out what I feel is a most fundamental fact that escapes most evangelical Christians on this issue. Witnessing to Jews (or any other non-believers in the NT) by quoting the NT has little impact. They may find it informative to hear what the NT has to say on related subjects, but the Christian tends to wield NT verses as a bludgeon, as if the recitation of such is proof in and of itself. It may be overly simplistic, but necessary, to point out that Jews don't believe the NT is part of the Word of God. How many times have Christians on this thread alone begun an answer by saying - "The Word of God says..." and then quote a NT passage? It's no different from a moslem trying to convert a Christian by quoting the Koran. Pointing out fulfillment of OT prophecy in the NT? Firstly, there are very strong arguments against the context of these supposed fulfillments as we've been examining, but even if there weren't, how does the Jew (or anyone skeptical of Christianity) know that these fulfillments were not retroactively penciled in to garnish the legend of Jesus and provide "proof" of his Messiahship? There is evidence to show that the NT texts have been altered since their inception, how much is anyone's guess, and even if they weren't, how do we know the original manuscripts told the truth in the first place? How much legend in the story of Jesus was tacked on before it was even originally written down - when the tale was only
orally transmitted for decades?

These are some basic, yet prodigious obstacles for an informed Jew to accepting Christ as descibed by evangelicals. Christians would do well to try and imagine, for the moment, that they themselves were not convinced of the gospel, that they were perhaps Jewish, being aware of the history of persecution of Jews by Christian nations/societies, ( even at times physically persecuted by those trying to evangelize them) then add to that the logistical problems with merely accepting the NT because it says it's the word of God.

Very well stated.

 

[bibleberean]

I have a much higher regard for the word of God than some in these forums.

The New Testament was writtne 2,000 years ago under the inspiration of God.

I totally disagree that quoting the New Testament has "little or any impact on non-believers".

First of all the skeptic believes neither the OT or the NT. Most of the skeptics on this forum have nothing but contempt for the bible to begin with.

These people do not lay the ground rules for debate in a Christian forum.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 10:34-39 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

The word of God is powerful to a true believer.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Acts 13:26-27 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

There are Jews that will hear the word but the majority will not hear it.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Those who doubt the power of God's word are weak in the faith.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The attempt to undermine the authority of God's word is the oldest trick in the book and people who use it do so just as their father did in the garden.

"...yea hath God said?..." Genesis 3:1

I stand by the scriptures. People who don't are not worthy of the name they claim to proclaim.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

There have been multitudes of Jews and skeptics who have embraced the "true gospel" not the gospel of bull becuase they read the bible.

2 Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

We are "born again by the word of God"

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[DivineNames]

What may seem obvious to you is tainted by your finite understanding of the things of God. We are drawn of God to his son, and those that are drawn and reject him have chosen to live in the darkness instead of the light. God knows the heart of every man, woman, and child and he is the judge. Will there be Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Wiccans, New Agers condemned to eternal separation from God in a place of torment? Yes, those that rejected a belief in God through Jesus Christ.

Lets imagine that we ask committed Jews, Muslims and Hindu's if they have chosen to be apart from God. What do you think they will say? I am sure that they will all tell us that they have NOT chosen to be apart from God.

For anyone that is committed to one of those religions, (there may be a question with certain fundies...) which intended purpose is obedience/worship/harmony with God, to say that they have "chosen to be apart from God" is obviously not the case. If an obvious truth goes against your fundie dogma, I am not at all surprised that you deny it.

 

[bibleberean]

Biblical tools for witnessing to Jews.

Jew and Gentile
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

THE RESTORATION OF THE JEWS
1. As to the FACT.

"And I will bring again the captivity of my people `Israel' and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land." Am 9:14-15.

But you say this prophecy was fulfilled in the restoration from the "Babylonian Captivity." Not so, for they were driven out of the land after that, and this promise is, that they shall no more be pulled up out of their land, and must refer to some future restoration. The return from the "Babylonian Captivity" was the First restoration, and the Scriptures speak of a Second.

"And it shall come to pass in "That Day" (Millennial Day) that the Lord shall set his hand again the SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of His People, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the Sea." Isa 11:11.

The Jews have never been restored but ONCE, and that was from Babylon. The march from Egypt to Canaan was not a restoration. You cannot have anything restored to you unless it has been in your possession before, and Palestine was never in possession of the Children of Israel until after its conquest by Joshua.

Again the Jews are to come this time, not from the "East," as when they returned from the "Babylonish Captivity," but from the "North," and from "All Countries."

"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the Children of Israel out of the Land of Egypt; but the Lord liveth that brought up the Children of Israel from the land of the NORTH and from ALL THE LANDS whither He had driven them; and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers." Jer 16:14-15. Also Isa 43:5-7.

2. As to the TIME.

When the "TIMES OF THE GENTILES" Have Been Fulfilled.

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the `Times of the Gentiles' be fulfilled." Lu 21:24.

3. As to the MANNER

a. Gathered Back UNCONVERTED.

"I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. THEN will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A New Heart also will I give you, and a New Spirit will I put within you; and I will give you an Heart of Flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes; and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Eze 36:24-27.

b. Before Conversion They Are To Be JUDGED.

"I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. . . . And I will cause you to `Pass Under The Rod,' and I will bring you into the bond of the Covenant; and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the Land of Israel." Eze 20:34-38.

Then God will cast them into His "Melting Pot."

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in Mine anger and in My fury and I will leave you there, and MELT YOU. Yea I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of My wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out My fury upon you." Eze 22:19-22.

"Behold, I will send My messenger (Elijah-- Mal 4:5-6), and he shall prepare the way before Me, and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a Refiner's Fire, and like Fuller's Soap: and He shall sit as a Refiner and Purifier of Silver: and He shall Purify the Sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Mal 3:1-3.

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name and I will hear them: I will say, it is My people; and they shall say, the Lord is my God." Zec 13:9.

The Jews have never as yet had such an experience as this. It is spoken of in Jer. 30:4-7, and Dan. 12: 1, as the "Time of `Jacob's Trouble,'" and Christ called it "THE GREAT TRIBULATION," and He and Zechariah the Prophet associate it with the Return of the Lord. Mt 24:21-31; Zec 14:1-11.

The result of these terrible judgments will be that the Jews will call in their misery upon the Lord.

"And I will pour upon the `House of David' and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem The Spirit of Grace and of Supplications." Zec 12:10.

Then Christ will come back to Jerusalem-- "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem on the east." Zec 14:4.

"And they shall look upon ME Whom They Have Pierced." Zec 12:10.

And a nation, the Jewish Nation, shall be born (converted) IN A DAY.

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a Nation Be Born at Once? for as soon as Zion Travailed, She Brought Forth Her Children." Isa 66:8.

As the Children of Israel when they came out of Egypt took with them of the "Riches of the Egyptians," (Ex 12:35-36), so when they return to their own land they will take with them the "Riches of the Gentiles." Isa 60:9; 61:6.

When they return to their own land it will be to possess and occupy all that was promised to Abraham. "The Royal Grant" given by the Almighty to Abraham extended from the "River of Egypt" unto the "Great River," the River Euphrates (Ge 15:18); and according to Ezekiel (Eze 48:1-29), from Hamath, north-east of Damascus, to Kadesh on the south. The Temple will be rebuilt. The Glory of the Lord will return. Sacrifices will again be offered. The Government shall be reestablished, and the nations of the earth will be blessed through Israel. Zec 8:20-23.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I have a much higher regard for the word of God than some in these forums.

What you meant to say, were you not busy degrading those who don't see things or state things exactly in the manner you do, is that you have a great deal of faith in the ability of the very words of God to transform even the most hardened unbeliever.

To which you would be greeted with enthusiastic assent by those that you had just moments before insulted.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I have a much higher regard for the word of God than some in these forums.

The New Testament was writtne 2,000 years ago under the inspiration of God

Once again you miss the point. That is your premise. The Jew's premise is that the NT is not the word of God. Why and how do you expect them to simply accept your premise? Your bible comes with a NT, theirs doesn't.

I totally disagree that quoting the New Testament has "little or any impact on non-believers"

It has little impact if you are expecting it to prove itself.

First of all the skeptic believes neither the OT or the NT. Most of the skeptics on this forum have nothing but contempt for the bible to begin with

Not all skeptics have contempt for the bible. (I haven't burned mine) You equate contempt with honestly questioning whether something which claims to be the word of God really is. I just believe, at this point, that there needs to be more evidence, internally and externally, to warrant that claim. Are we not supposed to "try (test) all things", even according to the bible itself?

These people do not lay the ground rules for debate in a Christian forum

What are the groundrules? That everyone must believe the bible to begin with? It seems the apologists here get very flustered when they can't just quote a verse to prove their point. I think you guys view skeptics or proponents of other religions like flies or ants at a picnic - annoying and somewhat inevitable. Point is you shouldn't attempt to "shoo" them by appealing to this as a Christian forum - either non-Christians are allowed to debate or they're not.

You know what's funny though? Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics etc. may just be the "salt" that savors this Christian forum. Think about it - all the Christians here only seem to be "one" when they join together to repel the non-Christians. Left to yourselves, you guys just go back to arguing among yourselves, and I daresay those "in house" doctrinal debates are far more venemous in nature.

"Irony"...you gotta love it 8-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

You know what's funny though? Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics etc. may just be the "salt" that savors this Christian forum. Think about it - all the Christians here only seem to be "one" when they join together to repel the non-Christians. Left to yourselves, you guys just go back to arguing among yourselves, and I daresay those "in house" doctrinal debates are far more venemous in nature.

I don't see this to be true at all. In fact, I, one of those supposed among those who repel the Scythians at the gate, said this in response to your post:

Very well stated

But since that doesn't fit into the schema you have concocted, simply overlook and forge ahead with suppositions in tow.

A quick review will clearly demonstrate that the Orthodox and Catholic participants of this forum have been consistently gracious in their dialogue with the agnostics and atheists.

But should anyone be surprised if 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' gets put into play here? Just watch how the intelligentsia and the Muslims team up over the Palestinian issue, or how you youself cast your lot with the Fundies over the issue of Mary and of images.

As for venomous postings, I see numerous individuals on this thread, myself included, who are guilty of same. This includes you Brad, so ecumenically speaking, we all have room for growth.
James

 

[Soma-Sight]

What you meant to say, were you not busy degrading those who don't see things or state things exactly in the manner you do, is that you have a great deal of faith in the ability of the very words of God to transform even the most hardened unbeliever.

To which you would be greeted with enthusiastic assent by those that you had just moments before insulted.

Hey OC!

Just kinda a side note but did you take English Writing classes in college or something? You have a wide vocab and state your point in a unique manner.....

You are the best writer on these boards bar none!

:angel:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

What you meant to say, were you not busy degrading those who don't see things or state things exactly in the manner you do, is that you have a great deal of faith in the ability of the very words of God to transform even the most hardened unbeliever.

To which you would be greeted with enthusiastic assent by those that you had just moments before insulted.

Hey OC!

Just kinda a side note but did you take English Writing classes in college or something? You have a wide vocab and state your point in a unique manner.....

You are the best writer on these boards bar none!

:angel:

Soma, you are too kind. I am but a lowly computer programmer and washed-up former Evangelical pastor looking to find the rest of the road God has laid out before me.

There's a reason why the road I've chosen is less traveled- it's puckered and pitted with potholes. :

Peace to you and yours
James

 

[bibleberean]

The New Testament reveals the Old Testament.

Naturally the Jews who are looking to refute that Jesus is the Saviour are going to make many claims against the authority of the Scriptures that expose them in their hard heartedness.


2 Corinthians 3:13-16 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

I have had many conversations face to face with Jews. Most of the Jews I have talked to tell me that the Old Testament is a collection of stories which give us insight on how to live "good moral lives".

Jesus told the Jews that they would reject Him who came in the Name of the God they claimed they served but will accept a man who will come in His own name.

John 5:43-47 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

(The false Messiah is coming and blind Israel will receive Him.)

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The issue is this.

Do we believe Jesus or do we believe the hard hearted Jews who continually reject the only one who cares for them?

I know where I stand.

As far as the non Jewish atheistic fools and alleged "spiritual" (unholy Spirit) skeptics are concerned most of them are not here to seek truth or understanding but are mockers sent here by their father.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And yet God is still longsuffering towards them and us...

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.