How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[jeff77]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while as it seems like most of us have debated Conditional Immortality(Annihilationism) and Eternal Conscious Torment long enough to know that we disagree. So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel. I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this. I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim. I think the most important part of it to be understood is that the unsaved will be conscious of their separation from God. I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord. My view on this as of right now is that neither Annihilation or E.C.T will ultimately cause a person to accept or reject Christ. It will be their desire to live according to their own will and not God's. I think this makes sense considering God does not want us to be autonomous. Anyway I don't know of any scripture right off hand that would support this, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Something interesting that I have noticed on this website is that their are doctrines that are only allowed to be discussed in the Other Religions section and apparently this is not one of them.

 

[Butch5]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while as it seems like most of us have debated Conditional Immortality(Annihilationism) and Eternal Conscious Torment long enough to know that we disagree. So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel. I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this. I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim. I think the most important part of it to be understood is that the unsaved will be conscious of their separation from God. I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord. My view on this as of right now is that neither Annihilation or E.C.T will ultimately cause a person to accept or reject Christ. It will be their desire to live according to their own will and not God's. I think this makes sense considering God does not want us to be autonomous. Anyway I don't know of any scripture right off hand that would support this, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Something interesting that I have noticed on this website is that their are doctrines that are only allowed to be discussed in the Other Religions section and apparently this is not one of them.

Hi Jeff,

I think ECT, can drive people away from Christianity. Scripture does say that God is just, it also says that God cannot lie. Scripture also says the wages of sin is death. There is no penalty described in Scripture more severe than death. If ECT is an accurate doctrine what does it say about God? If death is the most severe penalty given for sin, how is it just to make one burn eternally? If ECT is the destiny of the wicked it would mean many passages of Scripture are wrong, and it would suggest that God lied.

I believe unbelievers make quite a few charges against God that are based on misinformation they get from Christians. Scripture says the wages of sin is death, many Christians say the wages of sin is to burn in eternal torment. If someone threatens a punishment for something and then after the sin is committed changes the punishment to something else, that person has lied. This is the effect the ECT doctrine has on God. It says that God didn't really mean it when He said the wages of sin is death.

This leaves the lost looking at a God they cannot trust or believe and a Bible that they cannot trust or believe. Why would they become a Christian?

 

[jeff77]

Hi Jeff,

I think ECT, can drive people away from Christianity. Scripture does say that God is just, it also says that God cannot lie. Scripture also says the wages of sin is death. There is no penalty described in Scripture more severe than death. If ECT is an accurate doctrine what does it say about God? If death is the most severe penalty given for sin, how is it just to make one burn eternally? If ECT is the destiny of the wicked it would mean many passages of Scripture are wrong, and it would suggest that God lied.

I believe unbelievers make quite a few charges against God that are based on misinformation they get from Christians. Scripture says the wages of sin is death, many Christians say the wages of sin is to burn in eternal torment. If someone threatens a punishment for something and then after the sin is committed changes the punishment to something else, that person has lied. This is the effect the ECT doctrine has on God. It says that God didn't really mean it when He said the wages of sin is death.

This leaves the lost looking at a God they cannot trust or believe and a Bible that they cannot trust or believe. Why would they become a Christian?

Hey Butch, thanks for your honest answer. I don't believe the punishment would be unjust because God is just like the Bible says. So that would mean to me that the punishment would not be burning alive. As for the last sentence you wrote about "This leaves the lost looking at a God they cannot trust or believe...." This brings me back to a conversation we had about OSAS, when we were talking about being saved is not about "head knowledge". I took from this that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to a person and then they make the decision whether or not to follow. I think that the truth that the HS reveals is more powerful than a false doctrine. A false doctrine may have an effect but it is the person's desire to follow their own will ultimately.

 

[Butch5]

Hey Butch, thanks for your honest answer. I don't believe the punishment would be unjust because God is just like the Bible says. So that would mean to me that the punishment would not be burning alive. As for the last sentence you wrote about "This leaves the lost looking at a God they cannot trust or believe...." This brings me back to a conversation we had about OSAS, when we were talking about being saved is not about "head knowledge". I took from this that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to a person and then they make the decision whether or not to follow. I think that the truth that the HS reveals is more powerful than a false doctrine. A false doctrine may have an effect but it is the person's desire to follow their own will ultimately.

I agree that it is the person who ultimately decides whether or not to follow, my point is that some reject Christianity before they really know what it is based on doctrines they see taught that they don't believe align with a God who is just and honest.

 

[childeye]

I do not believe God tortures. Righteousness is by faith. Picture a man following an eternal line trying to prove it ends somewhere. This is not unlike the futility of those without faith (trust) in God. We are in time and in this world the consequences of the corruption caused by the distrust of God are experienced first hand. Perhaps somewhere outside of time the events that happen in time can be viewed over and over as a reminder of why God is worthy of our sincere worship.
Isaiah 66:23-24
New International Version (NIV)

23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while as it seems like most of us have debated Conditional Immortality(Annihilationism) and Eternal Conscious Torment long enough to know that we disagree. So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel. I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this.

You forgot to add "loving;" how could a Just and Loving God punish beings created in his own image, for whom he sent his only Son to die for, with everlasting torment and suffering?

I don't see how the extended nature of the torment in any way adds to the glory of God as some suppose, but rather detracts as it points to an eternally angry God. A God who on proportion will be more angry than joyful all things considered as there will be more people in hell than heaven. (wide road, narrow road)

This turns the gospel into, "I love you so much that I died for you, and if you don't believe in me I'll torture you forever."

Do you have any idea how this appears to an outsider? This is exactly how many of them think. I know because I used to be an outsider to the faith for the majority of my life.

I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim.

Whether it be metaphorical or not (the fiery imagery) matters little, what matters is that there is intense unending suffering that is the intended result of the punishment. That is the very definition of torture, and torture can be mental or physical. Many of the E.C.T. position suppose it's both.

I think the most important part of it to be understood is that the unsaved will be conscious of their separation from God.

Except then people of the E.C.T. position understate the testimony of Scripture. Hell is not the absence of God, if one interprets literally the passage of Revelation 14:9-11, which states that they are tormented day and night in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus).

This would mean that hell is not the absence of God, or separation from God, but the presence of his wrath to exhibit punishment perpetually forever and ever.

No where in Scripture does it indicate that hell is separation from God as the primary aspect, but rather the presence of punishment is emphasized. Annihilationists do not deny this aspect.

I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord.

This is how I would characterize the charge. "Hey, your guys' punishment isn't scary enough to make people believe in Jesus! You're undermining the message by not telling them to fear eternal conscious torment in hell."

To this I respond with a quote (paraphrase) from Paul, "it is the kindness of God that is supposed to lead us towards repentance." Or people falsely classify the good news as salvation from hell. "Good news, God isn't going to burn you forever and ever in hell (possibly metaphorically burn you), if you but believe in him and love him." [the outsiders scratch their head, wondering how they could ever love someone who set forth such conditions]

The question is not, which is the scariest punishment, but rather which is the Just punishment for the crime which fits the character of God revealed in Scripture.

If you read in the book of Acts, they never use the idea of eternal conscious torment to goad people into believing. (Jesus is the only one who uses the imagery of Gehenna, which is only to the Jews... Hmm I wonder why that is?)

My view on this as of right now is that neither Annihilation or E.C.T will ultimately cause a person to accept or reject Christ.

Neither will cause one to accept Christ, as it is the goodness of God revealed in the Crucified and risen savior that brings men to faith. However, one of these views seems to conflict with that concept of such a wonderful savior and may then in turn be a stumbling block to the gospel.

It will be their desire to live according to their own will and not God's.

Well, I imagine it is a multitude of reasons, not just one I think.

I think this makes sense considering God does not want us to be autonomous.

I think he wants us to use our freedom to lay down our lives for the gospel's and his sake. He doesn't desire robots who are forced to do his will. There is a measure of dominion that we humans have over the planet, and I don't know why God would give that if he didn't desire some measure of autonomy. I think he wants individual beings living in community, who choose to put the needs of others above their own and consider each other as more important.

Anyway I don't know of any scripture right off hand that would support this, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Something interesting that I have noticed on this website is that their are doctrines that are only allowed to be discussed in the Other Religions section and apparently this is not one of them.

That is because Annihilationism is not a heretical doctrine, we embrace the same gospel as you do, and worship among you. I don't go to some separate Annihilationist church, this is not a dividing issue for me, and while I speak harshly about the subject, I simply do not think that others have thought so deeply about the matter so as to tease out the implications about God.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hey Butch, thanks for your honest answer. I don't believe the punishment would be unjust because God is just like the Bible says.

I'm confused by this statement, is justice simply whatever God says it is, and that could be anything? Under this basis God could be okay really with anything right? Actually, Scripture reveals that his Justice is derived from his nature, that means we need to take in all the aspects of who God is when we consider his Justice.

So that would mean to me that the punishment would not be burning alive. As for the last sentence you wrote about "This leaves the lost looking at a God they cannot trust or believe...." This brings me back to a conversation we had about OSAS, when we were talking about being saved is not about "head knowledge". I took from this that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to a person and then they make the decision whether or not to follow. I think that the truth that the HS reveals is more powerful than a false doctrine. A false doctrine may have an effect but it is the person's desire to follow their own will ultimately.

I agree that some people are genuinely saved despite the manipulative tactics (especially with children), where Pastors say, "well you don't want to go to hell forever and be separated from mom and dad do you? If you believe in Jesus, you'll be in heaven forever with them and Jesus and not be tormented day and night forever and ever. How does that sound?" Naturally, every child in the joint will raise their hand. Sadly though, this creates a lot of false converts who had no root and then when the trials of the world come... fall away.

It is a tragedy how the fires of hell have been manipulated over the centuries to try to utilize fear mongering to inspire people to convert.

 

[jeff77]

I'm confused by this statement, is justice simply whatever God says it is, and that could be anything? Under this basis God could be okay really with anything right? Actually, Scripture reveals that his Justice is derived from his nature, that means we need to take in all the aspects of who God is when we consider his Justice.

Right, I agree with that. You said something in the Fate of Unsaved Children thread that made a lot of sense to me. I can't remember your exact words but it was something about not just assuming God could be okay with anything, but rather what the scripture says about his nature (pretty much what you have said here).

It is very late here, so I will get back to my response tomorrow. I am hoping this thread will be one that we all can all find some agreement in. I don't consider this to be divisive either.

 

[agua.]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while as it seems like most of us have debated Conditional Immortality(Annihilationism) and Eternal Conscious Torment long enough to know that we disagree. So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel.

This is the crux of the matter really considering that what a Christian believes in this matter doesn't effect their destination. It's a good idea to investigate how this doctrine is perceived by unbelievers and how it would effect their view of Yahweh. Good thread !

I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this. I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim. I think the most important part of it to be understood is that the unsaved will be conscious of their separation from God.

I think logic comes into play here when we think about this. When we consider perfect justice we usually believe that the punishment will fit the crime. I don't see any way of reconciling eternal punishment, what ever it is, with a finite amount of crime/sin. Also ECT allows both the righteous and the wicked immortality which is quite strange imo.

I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord. My view on this as of right now is that neither Annihilation or E.C.T will ultimately cause a person to accept or reject Christ. It will be their desire to live according to their own will and not God's. I think this makes sense considering God does not want us to be autonomous. Anyway I don't know of any scripture right off hand that would support this, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Something interesting that I have noticed on this website is that their are doctrines that are only allowed to be discussed in the Other Religions section and apparently this is not one of them.

The most important thing ECT minimizes is Eternal life with Yahweh in a paradise on Earth.imo. Do we really consider what the unsaved will be missing here ? A lifetime of say 80 years on Earth ( for the fortunate ) with an amount of pleasure and grief compared with an eternity of joy.

I agree with you here because I don't believe we have the power to cause anyone to reject the Gospel. Yahweh wouldn't place the balance of eternal life of any person in our hands imo that would be like giving the keys to a Rolls Royce to a demolition derby driver . It's rebellion against Yahweh that all people must repent of and this isn't dependent on what they hear or see; it's an individual heart condition imo. Most people choose their current lifestyle over Yahweh because they like it. They like it a lot.

In saying all that I do think we ( Christians ) will be accountable for how we handle the Gospel and how we present Yahweh. How this pans out at the Bema Seat I don't know.

Also as you've noted CI and annihilationism isn't listed as a false doctrine/ other religion here and so it's open for discussion. The implications of labeling another Christian a false teacher etc should be considered esp in light of the warnings not to judge hypocritically. Either ECT or CI is incorrect and so best be careful Christians

 

[JLB]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while as it seems like most of us have debated Conditional Immortality(Annihilationism) and Eternal Conscious Torment long enough to know that we disagree. So I am interested in how yall think this affects the Gospel. I have heard the C.I side say that the idea of a God who tortures the unsaved for eternity causes people to reject Christianity because it doesn't make sense that the Bible claims God to be "just" and at the same time do this. I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim. I think the most important part of it to be understood is that the unsaved will be conscious of their separation from God. I have heard from the E.C.T side say that Annihilation makes hell sound "not so bad after all" and when people hear this they might decide they would rather enjoy their time here on earth doing what they want instead of giving their life to the Lord. My view on this as of right now is that neither Annihilation or E.C.T will ultimately cause a person to accept or reject Christ. It will be their desire to live according to their own will and not God's. I think this makes sense considering God does not want us to be autonomous. Anyway I don't know of any scripture right off hand that would support this, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Something interesting that I have noticed on this website is that their are doctrines that are only allowed to be discussed in the Other Religions section and apparently this is not one of them.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


Last time I looked, it is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation, not ECT or CI, which are not biblical terms.



No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


JLB

 

[chessman]

Last time I looked, it is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation, not ECT or CI, which are not biblical terms.


JLB

And the appropriate continuation to your statement above is; "Can I get an Amen on that brothers?"

Amen Brother. Excellent point. I agree. That's true.
And the irony is, I don't know of a single Annihilationist that I suspect would disagree with your point either.

Maybe it’s worth posting and considering these points at this time. I’ll start with the modern and work backwards in history.
1. CFNet’s required member SoF reads:

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.
​

Nothing about annihilationism or ECT conflicts with this statement.

2. My denomination’s SoF (Baptist Faith and Message):

The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.​

Nothing about annihilationism conflicts with this statement. In fact it points out that the righteous receive their reward of glorified bodies, and implies the unrighteous do not (if you ask me). Many Baptist seminary professors directly teach/taught it (including Dale Moody and many other well-known Baptist Theologians/Scholars)

3. There is nothing in any of the Ecumenical Creeds (widely considered to bound what it means to be a ‘Christian’ (just generally speaking of course) that conflicts with annihilationism either.

4. The following Early Church Fathers (1st/2nd Century) directly taught annihilationism (or at least CI):

First Clement
Ignatius of Antioch
Author of Epistle of Barnabas
Irenaeus of Lyons​

I cannot speak for other’s motivations and feelings, obviously, but I can for my personal history. As of just a few years ago (less than three) I would have 100% confindently thought annihilationism a false doctrine. However, the more I’ve studied this issue, the more I realize I was wrong about that opinion of mine as been changed. And I can assure you (and more importantly myself) that it was not changed based on anything other than a study of God's Word. I fought against annihilationishm pretty hard. I'm still open to a good argument against it, in fact.

Not that I would expect any of you other members reading to find that as evidence one way or the other (I wouldn't if I were you).

But my points 1-4 are at least some evidences that the debate (which doctrine is false and which is true, ECT or CI) is not as clear as you might think it is.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

i think you brought up something that hurts your position, as I think
in general, as the one world church used the writings and authority of men apart from Scripture to support itself, wrongly,
i think that if the early church fathers support something, it's likely false. overall that's been the case. or better put - if a group uses men to support something, it's like false.
at least subject to fresh testing.
(all men's writings are suspect..... not trustworthy in themselves)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

i think you brought up something that hurts your position, as I think
in general, as the one world church used the writings and authority of men apart from Scripture to support itself, wrongly,
i think that if the early church fathers support something, it's likely false. overall that's been the case. or better put - if a group uses men to support something, it's like false.
at least subject to fresh testing.
(all men's writings are suspect..... not trustworthy in themselves)

Does this statement then apply to this very post you wrote? Thus making it self-contradictory?

Your writings about the ECF's is then likely suspect, and therefore cannot be trusted on the topic.

Do you not see how this circular argument is self-refuting?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

good. like paul said about himself and apollos. test everything. the early church fathers as proclaimed by the world church to claim authority for itself were wrong about a lot of things they say proves they are right - like you said 'circular argument'.
another key I accepted from Scripture, "all men are liars",
that helped me accept what Yhwh says when it is not said/supported by 'authorities'(religious,political,educational,economic).
otherwise,
if i had "trusted flesh" (mankind,man's wisdom,man's knowledge),
i wouldn't have a clue ...... .... .... ... ....
(for instance,(as a physical example) that vit A always, always, always, ... ... ... well, (prove this. it only takes a week sometimes) reverses severe deficiency of vit a; but though it's 'common' (in the news a lot) it's never officially diagnosed.(they don't even bother to tell the person) (and they prosecute any doctor that does tell their pt) )

summary: the flesh profits nothing. whoever trusts in the flesh, Yhwh says "I curse".

 

[Doulos Iesou]

good. like paul said about himself and apollos. test everything. the early church fathers as proclaimed by the world church to claim authority for itself were wrong about a lot of things they say proves they are right - like you said 'circular argument'.
another key I accepted from Scripture, "all men are liars",
that helped me accept what Yhwh says when it is not said/supported by 'authorities'(religious,political,educational,economic).
otherwise,
if i had "trusted flesh" (mankind,man's wisdom,man's knowledge),
i wouldn't have a clue ...... .... .... ... ....
(for instance,(as a physical example) that vit A always, always, always, ... ... ... well, (prove this. it only takes a week sometimes) reverses severe deficiency of vit a; but though it's 'common' (in the news a lot) it's never officially diagnosed.(they don't even bother to tell the person) (and they prosecute any doctor that does tell their pt) )

summary: the flesh profits nothing. whoever trusts in the flesh, Yhwh says "I curse".

Men are not infallible, but that doesn't mean that whatever the ECT's thought was wrong. We all get things wrong, and what matters is that we compare them with Scripture.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Men are not infallible, but that doesn't mean that whatever the ECT's thought was wrong. We all get things wrong, and what matters is that we compare them with Scripture.

yes. correct.
the point (about this) is that the ect's statements (some of which are in serious error) are used to support the one world church's position. they claim because the ects said it, therefore it is right, therefore ... ... and so on......
some of the ects in fact were not even christian, but the world church still uses them as their 'authority' to keep(or try to) power over others,
and to maintain , as if they could, 'credibility' by falsehood. (which works in the world, but not in the body of Christ)

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

yes, i know "ect's" looks different than "ecf's". just smiled and left it.......

 

[Doulos Iesou]

yes, i know "ect's" looks different than "ecf's". just smiled and left it.......

Oops, did it right in the first post, but I have debating this issue so much lately that I said ECT. lol

 

[jeff77]

This turns the gospel into, "I love you so much that I died for you, and if you don't believe in me I'll torture you forever.

I had several Sunday School teachers and a youth minister when I was growing up teach in this way. It is not helpful and doesn't make sense given that God wants us to choose him and not be scared into believing/following.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I had several Sunday School teachers and a youth minister when I was growing up teach in this way. It is not helpful and doesn't make sense given that God wants us to choose him and not be scared into believing/following.

It is an epidemic, it infiltrates nearly every Sunday School and youth ministry out there.

I wish that what I presented was just a caricature, but people actually teach it like that.