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How few will be saved?

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First, the Holy Spirit expounding on scripture and context is far more important than the actual exact Greek and Hebrew. We also don't need to complicate things. Jesus making a comparison to being better to loose the part that offends, than to have it cast in the Valley of Hinnom, (However you spell that) which was well known to the people of the time.

I am not sure what verses you consider inconvenient though, all scripture is for reproof and doctrine, not one of them designed to be inconvenient.

Last post from me on this thread, but you lose me here. The Holy Spirit "expounding on" Scripture is more important than the meaning of the original language? It seems to me that this is distinctly putting the cart before the horse. We pretty much have to start with the best translation we can achieve and go from there. Who decides what the Holy Spirit is "expounding" - the individual believer, the Southern Baptist Convention, the Pope? I will agree that the individual believer must let the Holy Spirit speak to his situation in life as he reads Scripture, but I have difficulty following the concept of the Holy Spirit expounding in the abstract, apart from an accurate translation and an understanding of context.

Jesus isn't making a comparison in Matthew 5:27-29. The fact that Hell or the real-world Valley of Hinnom as an analogy for Hell was clearly understood by the Jews of the time really adds nothing to the interpretation of Matthew 5:27-29. Jesus was talking about the sexual, bodily sin of adultery. He then clearly said - no comparison or analogy - if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out; if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

These verses aren't inconvenient for me because I firmly believe they are hyperbole. Even taking them as hyperbole, I don't live up to their message. But they are inconvenient for literalists who, here as elsewhere, pick and choose just how literal they are willing to be. When it comes to verses like Matthew 5:27-29, the tap-dancing away from literalness would've made Fred Astaire dizzy.
 
:topic

How few will be saved.

I am of a mind that what just happened and what just tried to ensnare two brothers in Christ is part of what is to be avoided religiously and can be used to prevent our going to heaven. No, it's not a sin that leads to death. Yes, I am praying and I would not doubt that Runner is too about our Father forgiving me and he. But what happens normally? We are told to guard against bitterness, are we not? That's the thing that can later spring up (for no apparent reason) and from that root of bitterness that is being expunged even before it takes root (by faith) can defile many. James spoke of the need to bridle our tongues (to the Holy Spirit). We are not supposed to speak in an unguarded manner, but believe me, as one with 10,000+ posts, I do know this even here.

How few will be saved? Those who do not call out upon the Name of Jesus are in danger.

Now, back to the insider fighting...
If you think that Jesus requires us to be perfect in grammar or spelling, you're wrong. If you think that he requires perfect spelling? Again, forget about it. Those are superficial things only. They don't matter. Now, bare with me (and yes, I know I just invited you to undress) bear with me... and let me say that there is a very serious thing that troubles those who take great pains to rightly know every single research point like only a SCRIBE may. Scribes and Pharisees take pride in their own understanding of things. But they miss the point.

Brother Mike says and means that Jesus is the King of HEARTS and that he doesn't care how we go about showing the love we have in our hearts... And I know he didn't use those words, but he too speaks to those who are GIVEN and ear to hear.
 
Last post from me on this thread, but you lose me here. The Holy Spirit "expounding on" Scripture is more important than the meaning of the original language? It seems to me that this is distinctly putting the cart before the horse. We pretty much have to start with the best translation we can achieve and go from there. Who decides what the Holy Spirit is "expounding" - the individual believer, the Southern Baptist Convention, the Pope? I will agree that the individual believer must let the Holy Spirit speak to his situation in life as he reads Scripture, but I have difficulty following the concept of the Holy Spirit expounding in the abstract, apart from an accurate translation and an understanding of context.

Jesus isn't making a comparison in Matthew 5:27-29. The fact that Hell or the real-world Valley of Hinnom as an analogy for Hell was clearly understood by the Jews of the time really adds nothing to the interpretation of Matthew 5:27-29. Jesus was talking about the sexual, bodily sin of adultery. He then clearly said - no comparison or analogy - if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out; if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

These verses aren't inconvenient for me because I firmly believe they are hyperbole. Even taking them as hyperbole, I don't live up to their message. But they are inconvenient for literalists who, here as elsewhere, pick and choose just how literal they are willing to be. When it comes to verses like Matthew 5:27-29, the tap-dancing away from literalness would've made Fred Astaire dizzy.

First, Nobody here I give heed to tap dances away from scripture, and they take it literal. There are some here I don't take very seriously, but you have to discern who to pay attention to and learn.

One more time. The Holy Spirit in us, teaches us all things. Not language, not man made rules, the Word is only Spiritually discerned.

As for what Jesus said, I already told you, it's a comparison. It's better to be missing the body part, than getting thrown in the Valley of Hinnom. Jesus also did not say you committed the Sin of adultery, that is not what He said. He said it was committed in your heart, and better to gouge your eyes out, or remove your hand than to commit adultery. (James expounds on when it becomes sin, and when it leads to death)

Jesus is not speaking Hyperbole, the sin of Adultery will kill things in your life, and destroy you. It's better to go through life maimed, than face the effects of sin.

:topic

How few will be saved.
Brother Mike says and means that Jesus is the King of HEARTS and that he doesn't care how we go about showing the love we have in our hearts... And I know he didn't use those words, but he too speaks to those who are GIVEN and ear to hear.

There is one sin that leads to Spiritual death, that's it, and after someone is saved. When death is spoken about, it's about the curse and the effects in this life. Sin will kill and cut life short here on earth. Even Paul and the Lord himself judging until the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved and not judged with the world.

The eyes of the Lord on on the heart, Love is the Key to working faith, as it's written, Love ye one another.

One women who murdered her children had gotten life in prison, but the Lord had mercy, and she is free now. She murdered them in confusion, thinking the Lord would raise them, and she was showing the Lord He is first place, not anything else.

Another Women murder her 3 children also, for another man, so she could leave her Husband. No mercy, but same exact crime. She will never leave prison in her current state.

It's not the action, it's the heart behind the action. It's not the preaching, but the heart behind the preaching. For those that think they know much, take heed least you also fall. Pride Goes before destruction, and much wisdom of the Lord corrupts the young in forgetting that everyone only knows in part, and see's so very little.

back to topic I guess.
 
ONE
Heb_11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

IN 3 PARTS DUE TO CHARACTER COUNT

So, is deliverance there? Does it take faith? What do you think? It can't be we have to be killed, and promised to be delivered, but you should actually read my post, not skim through it.

I did not skim. I ignored the eisigesis and posted what scripture says. My strike through "lacking of faith" is not a mockery of faith. I strike through what was not in the scriptures. These martyrs were killed for their life in Christ. It would be mocking to think they were martyred for lack of faith, especially when Stephen was so when being full of the Holy Ghost and seeing Christ before his very eyes declaring him.

As for the scripture of Hebrews, since you asked my thoughts on it, I will give them.

Here is a portion in context from the King James Version (I'm KJVP).
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. AND THESE ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
HEBREWS CHAPTER 11
v 1-3) Explanation of faith
v 4-31) Examples of faithful people
v 32) Author wraps up for time's sake, concluding that there are others mentioned and not mentioned equally worthy of being remembered as faithful as them explained in v 4-31
v 33-38) Victories and trials of those that are faithful
v 39) All of these people are deemed faithful, yet still had not received all the promises of God
v 40) Old and New covenant saints are made perfect through faith, and made perfect in Christ.
 
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TWO
YOUR ISOLATED VERSE
Women received their dead raised to life again:
The beginning of the verse is part of the previous thought about miracles of God done through the prophets. An example is in 2 Kings 4:18-37 when Elisha raises the Shunammite's Son
and others were tortured,
Jesus said that Jerusalem stone its own prophets. Prophets of God faced tribulation, and the wicked would recieve their reward. This does not say that they were stricken for lack of faith. Rather the context reveals the opposite.
not accepting deliverance;
Who is offering deliverance here? And from what? The NLT offers some insight near to my thoughts. So I'll just post this portion from the NLT:
But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection.
So it is conclusive that it does not mean that they refused deliverance from God. Rather it is talking about how they faithfully bore affliction because they hoped in something greater than their earthly life. That would be to say Jesus took the fathers wrath. He refused to turn from that wrath. He was the embodiment of faith. And going back to verse 35, Samson is listed among the faithful.
Commentary from precept austin
Spurgeon - They flung their lives away without a sigh, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. And they were no fools; they were gainers by their losses. The ruby crowns they wear today and forever are the full reward of all their sufferings: “Seek first his kingdom and righteousness” (Matt 6:33). What wondrous faith it was that sustained the saints under the awful tortures to which they were subjected! The story harrows one’s heart even to read it; what must it have been actually to endure?

Steven Cole
...

The description of some being tortured, not accepting their release, may refer to two incidents during the reign of terror of the wicked Antiochus Epiphanes (reported in the apocryphal 2 Maccabees 6 & 7).

In the first, an old teacher of the law, Eleazar, was forced to open his mouth to eat pork. But, “preferring an honour-able death to an unclean life, he spat it out” (2Macc. 6:19, New English Bible). They then stretched him on a rack and flogged him. At one point, they offered that he could eat clean meat, but pretend that it was the pork that the king had ordered. He replied, “Send me quickly to my grave. If I went through with this pretence at my time of life, many of the young might believe that at the age of ninety Eleazar had turned apostate. If I practiced deceit for the sake of a brief moment of life, I should lead them astray and bring stain and pollution on my old age. I might for the present avoid man’s punishment, but, alive or dead, I shall never escape from the hand of the Almighty” (2Macc 6:24-27).

In the other incident, seven sons of one woman were tortured and killed in front of her for refusing to eat pork.

Our text refutes the health and wealth heresy, to say the least! It shows us the fierce opposition that Satan has towards the faithful people of God. It reveals the irrational evil that consumes wicked people to inflict such atrocities on the godly. And, it should en-courage us to endure rejection, ill-treatment, injustice, and even torture and death, if need be, for the sake of the gospel. Although, like the Hebrews (He 12:4-note), we have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in our striving against sin” it may come to that. If we do suffer for the sake of Christ, we will join a great company of God’s people down through history “of whom the world was not worthy” (He 11:38). (Faith's Reward- See Sermons by Book)

Release
(629)(apolutrosis from apo = marker of dissociation or separation + lutroo = to redeem <> from lútron = ransom <> from luo = loosen what is bound, loose any person tied or fastened) refers primarily to the payment of a price to ransom but in this context does not involve payment with money. The required "redemption price" was a recanting of one's belief in Jesus, which which would result in deliverance of the recanting person from torture.

Their release
- More literally "the release" as the definite article is present in the Greek text, indicating that the specific deliverance offered at the price (the "redemption price" so to speak) of denying their faith was refused.

Henry Morris
on not accepting their release - The apocryphal books of the Maccabees describe how many faithful Jews were tortured unto death, even though they could have received deliverance and riches if they only would recant and renounce their faith. This type of experience was later shared by many of the early Christians, but they had faith in such promises as that of II Corinthians 4:17: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory.” (Defender's Study Bible)

A W Pink
on release - It was offered to them, but at the price of apostasy. Two alternatives were set before them: disloyalty to the Lord, or enduring the most excruciating suffering; surrender of the Truth, or being tortured by devils in human form. Freedom from this torture was offered to them in return for forsaking their profession. This is expressly affirmed of Eliezer and his seven brethren in 2 Maccabees. Yea, they were not only offered freedom from tortures and death, but promised great rewards and promotions, which they steadfastly refused. The principal design of Satan in setting torture before God’s saints is not to slay their bodies, but is to destroy their souls. Space has always been given to the victim for consideration and recantation: entreaties have been mingled with threats to induce a renouncing of their profession. Thus, the real test presented was, which did these saints of God esteem more highly: the present comfort of their bodies or the eternal interests of their souls? (cp Mt 10:28) Let it be remembered that they were men and women of like passion with us (cp Jas 5:17): their bodies were made of the same tender and sensitive flesh as ours are, but such was the care they had for their souls, so genuine was their faith and hope in a better resurrection, that they listened not to the appeals and whinings of the outward man. The same issue is drawn, though in another form, today: alas, what countless millions of people lose their souls eternally for the temporary gratification of their vile bodies (cp Mk 8:34, 35, 36, 37). Reader, which do you esteem the more highly: your body or your soul? Your actions supply the answer: which receives the more thought, care and attention; which is "denied," and which is catered unto? (An Exposition of Hebrews)
Commentary quotes from biblehub
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary a better resurrection—than that of the women's children "raised to life again"; or, than the resurrection which their foes could give them by delivering them from death
Benson Commentary not accepting deliverance — When it was offered them on sinful terms, nor even riches and preferments added to the proposal; that they might obtain a better resurrection — A resurrection to a better life than that they were to lose,
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers Not accepting deliverance.—Literally, not accepting the redemption, i.e., the deliverance offered, which must be purchased at the price of their constancy (their faithfulness).
WHEN THERE IS GOOD REDEMPTION AND BAD REDEMPTION:
Peter on False Prophets - While they promise them liberty [They entice God's people with seductive counterfeit freedom], they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2 Peter 2:19
KJV with added notations
 
THREE
that they might obtain a better resurrection:
To quote a faithful hymn: "The Cross before me, the world behind me". Your best life is not now. Jesus said we lose our life to gain it.
The lyrics are based on the last words of a man in Assam, north-east India, who along with his family was converted to Christianity in the middle of the 19th century through the efforts of a Welsh missionary. Called to renounce his faith by the village chief, the convert declared, "I have decided to follow Jesus." In response to threats to his family, he continued, "Though no one joins me, still I will follow." His wife was killed, and he was executed while singing, "The cross before me, the world behind me." This display of faith is reported to have led to the conversion of the chief and others in the village. [Wiki]
Requote from biblehub
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary a better resurrection—than that of the women's children "raised to life again"; or, than the resurrection which their foes could give them by delivering them from death

So Hebrews 11:35 says that there were those who did not stop being faithful in their persecution. They refused deliverance because they had a better life ahead of them. And as the last few verses of Hebrews 11 says "AND THESE ALL, having obtained a good report through faith". All these, which includes the persecuted of verse 35, obtained a good report. And it was by faith. Thus there is nothing that states that their persecution was unfaithfulness in God. Rather it displays people of God faithfully enduring suffering, as did Christ.

NEXT TWO VERSES ABOUT THE FAITHFUL
And others had trial of cruel mockings
Now Tobiah the Ammonite was by him, and he said, Even that which they build, if a fox goes up, he shall even break down their stone wall. Nehemiah 4:3
and scourgings,
Then Pashur smote Jeremiah the prophet, and put him in the stocks that were in the high gate of Benjamin, which was by the house of the LORD. Jeremeiah 20:2
yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Joseph being one of many examples.​
They were stoned,
And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died. 1 Kings 21:13
they were sawn asunder,
The author refers to tradition of the faithful saint and prophet of God, Isaiah.​
were tempted,
Job was tempted by his wife to curse God and die
were slain with the sword:
And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. 1 Kings 19:10
Also See Jer 26:23​
they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins;
in sheepskins—as Elijah (1Ki 19:13, Septuagint). They were white; as the "goat-skins" were black (compare Zec 13:4). - Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Jeremiah, the weeping prophet.​
Men of whom the world was not worthy
They were made righteous by faith in God​

However, the Lives, or at least the traditions that it preserves, may have had an even more profound impact on Christian tradition. The Hebrew Bible itself is silent about the deaths of most prophets, the case of Zechariah the son of Jehoiada being a notable exception. Yet Jesus is quoted as saying "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you." (Luke 13:34) Saint Paul writes to the Thessalonians that the Jews "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets..." (1 Thessalonians 2:14-15); and the Book of Acts reports Saint Stephen as declaring, just before his martyrdom: "Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One." (Acts 7:52)
source

I think the ungodly are going to fear more when a man fearlessly and faithfully endures torment and death with a face of flint (Matthew 10:28) than when a man starts begging in fear to be delivered. Like in the example of the hymn I gave. Though none go with me, still I will follow.
 
THREE
that they might obtain a better resurrection:
To quote a faithful hymn: "The Cross before me, the world behind me". Your best life is not now. Jesus said we lose our life to gain it.
The lyrics are based on the last words of a man in Assam, north-east India, who along with his family was converted to Christianity in the middle of the 19th century through the efforts of a Welsh missionary. Called to renounce his faith by the village chief, the convert declared, "I have decided to follow Jesus." In response to threats to his family, he continued, "Though no one joins me, still I will follow." His wife was killed, and he was executed while singing, "The cross before me, the world behind me." This display of faith is reported to have led to the conversion of the chief and others in the village. [Wiki]
Requote from biblehub

It's pretty silly of me to sit here and watch you come up with all kinds of twisted thoughts on that verse in Hebrews 11. They did not deny Jesus, so they refused deliverance is not in the Greek, and I have news for you, deny Jesus or not, they are still going to kill you. Deliverance is there, they refused it.

And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
(2Th 3:2-3)

The Lord is what? Faithful, and will keep you from evil, keep you from men trying to kill you, and protect you.
Paul said that, one of the 12 that also finished his full course and race set before him.

Isa_54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

How many weapons formed against you can prosper? ZERO, none, not possible.

A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
(Psa 91:7-10)

I guess David must not have heard of Benson commentary. He must have missed that one. Not everyone walked and believed like David did, like Paul did, but that don't mean we can't. Job certainly did not walk like David did, had the Sabeans and Chaladeans taken Davids stuff, David would have had his stuff and and theirs.

Believe what you want, The Lord has failed nobody that believed and trusted in him to deliver, but a whole lot of brothers and sisters are dead right now for the same type of junk you posted.

Everything we get from the Lord that pertains to this life only comes through the the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus. You can be the guy that runs his family to hid in a house about to be hit by the tornado, praying in fear he is safe, or you can be like me, standing in front of my house telling the tornado to go around my house.

We have choices, and I hope you see it, because without faith, nobody gets fully or close to the plan of God for their life, but everyone of us will answer for not getting it done.

Mike.
 
It's pretty silly of me to sit here and watch you come up with all kinds of twisted thoughts on that verse in Hebrews 11.
Very well then. Your satisfied with eisigesis, so I won't comment further.

but a whole lot of brothers and sisters are dead right now for the same type of junk you posted.

You say I "mocked faith," yet you mock the faithful martyrs who died for their testimony and for the word of God.

There are three which bear witness.
 
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Very well then. Your satisfied with eisigesis, so I won't comment further.



You say I "mocked faith," yet you mock the faithful martyrs who died for their testimony and for the word of God.

There are three which bear witness.

You don't have a word for your testimony letting the devil kill you off early. I am not sure who your referring to, but all of Jesus disciples not only witnessed everywhere, they ran their race and finished their course. When I give you scripture that no weapon shall prosper against you, then that should mean something. When Paul says God is faithful to deliver you from wicked and evil men, then how else you going to get to be a martyr? You seem to have this idea that man trying to kill you, somehow overrides God's promise of long life, and stopping God's plan for your life. Even the devil can't stop someone who believes on the Word of God, how can man do it?

So, you believe that people, despite what they believe, can not run their race, and live in the promises of the Lord because someone else wants to kill them off early. Is that what your saying?



Mike.
 
You don't have a word for your testimony letting the devil kill you off early. I am not sure who your referring to, but all of Jesus disciples not only witnessed everywhere, they ran their race and finished their course. When I give you scripture that no weapon shall prosper against you, then that should mean something. When Paul says God is faithful to deliver you from wicked and evil men, then how else you going to get to be a martyr? You seem to have this idea that man trying to kill you, somehow overrides God's promise of long life, and stopping God's plan for your life. Even the devil can't stop someone who believes on the Word of God, how can man do it?

So, you believe that people, despite what they believe, can not run their race, and live in the promises of the Lord because someone else wants to kill them off early. Is that what your saying?



Mike.

Why should I tell you more of what I say? What more do you wish to twist? I'm not putting any strikes through God's words, only your eisigesis.

Christ's grace be with you.
 
Why should I tell you more of what I say? What more do you wish to twist? I'm not putting any strikes through God's words, only your eisigesis.

Christ's grace be with you.

1Ch_16:22 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Psa_105:15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

Somewhere your using scriptures in a way, but ignoring other scriptures. No question, God's people were put to death. When we look at others in scriptures that operated in a higher level of faith like Paul, Jesus, David, they were not just put to death on someone's whim.
So we look at what they believed and did, not discounting what the others went through like Stephen.

God said, Touch not my anointed, do my prophets no harm. That is the Will of the one that made everything. It's not his will we be killed early.

So my question then, would it not be better to be in faith for what the Will of the Lord actually is? Since we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, do we just allow some unclean spirit to set up a snare to kill us? What are you suggesting we submit to here?

Mike.
 

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