How many Jesus' are there?

[Imagican]

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Muslims believe and teach a false Christ and a false gospel. They have another spirit and that spirit is Satan.

The Mormon church promotes a Jesus that is a brother of Lucifer.

Rome has a "wafer" Jesus.

The list could go on and on.

There are many false Christs and false gospels.

It takes a prayerful bible believing person to find the true and living God.

Beware of false Christs, gospels, and prophets

Amen My Brother. See, there are those that recognize that Satan IS able to disguise himself and be accepted AS Christ by those that are able to be led 'by men'. And even THESE believe that the FEELINGS that they recieve ARE from Christ. For Satan DOES have dominion over this earth and the he KNOWS what the FLESH craves. Deliver he does and to MOST they are satisfied with this.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

There are MORE GODS than we have names for them. But, there is ONLY One TRUE God.

There is only one living God, who is the true God.

And again, your response to my post further proves my point that those who don't believe in the Trinity don't use the entirety of what Scripture reveals about God. You use half the evidence.

Free,

While I must admit that I am FAR from a 'Bible Scholar' and there is probably MORE that I do NOT know that which I do. I have read The Word over and over and over again and have YET to 'put aside scripture' that does NOT coincide with my beliefs. My beliefs are BASED on The Word and that which has been revealed THROUGH The Word.

So, with this said, I am confused as to WHERE this 'other half of the evidence' is located. For I entered 'my relationship' with an open mind and an open heart with LITTLE preconceptions. For you see, I had almost NO previous knowledge of churches God or Christ until I started reading The Word.

After well over a year of doing NOTHING but read The Word I began to encounter those that talked about this 'trinity'. I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what they were talking about. And these that introduced me to the word 'trinity' INSISTED that I MUST accept it in order to 'be saved'.

Now Free, I HAD accepted Christ, The Son of God, AS my Savior and The Spirit was manifest in my life to such a degree that I was growing BY THE MINUTE, (at times). So imagine my confusion when I had folks telling me that 'this couldn't BE' without 'trinity'. They were OBVIOUSLY WRONG.

So I began to LOOK dilligently for this 'trinity'. And the HARDER I looked the more elusive it proved to be. So I then went OUTSIDE The Bible and began to study the HISTORY of this 'belief'. It didn't take long to begin to understand WHY I didn't know ANYTHING about it from The Word. For the word itself doen NOT exist in The Word.

Now, I am UNABLE to judge the heart of another. I can certainly witness their behavior and recognize that which is From Above and that which is from 'some OTHER sorce'. But even then I am STILL unable to judge the heart of another. There is not a SINGLE individual that I have EVER met that I am able to determine IS SAVED or IS NOT. That is NOT my job. Mine is to simply love them as 'myself' and offer WHATEVER I am able in order to HELP them.

Funny, but durring my walk I have found that MANY of those that insist upon this 'trinity', for some reason, seem to believe that THEY ARE able to judge others. I have had them tell me that I CANNOT BE SAVED without it. I've had em accuse me of this and worse. I have personally witnessed, (on MORE than one occasion), those that have ALMOST NO actual knowledge of The Word attack me for NOT accepting 'trinity'. These that have ALMOST NO actual knowledge of The Word WHATSOEVER yet they are SURE about this 'trintiy' that doesn't even EXIST in The Word.

The indication from my experiences have led to ONE CONCLUSION. This 'trinity' is a 'man-made' creation and more often than NOT seems to inspire a 'serious lack of LOVE' in those that accept it. For 'some reason', even those that HAVEN'T even READ The Word INSIST that one MUST accept 'trinity'. Now, if they HAVEN'T EVEN READ THE WORD, where do you suppose they learned of this 'trinity'?

God loves us. SO MUCH so that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON to this planet to DIE for our sins. ALL OF EM. The TRUTH IS available to us. For God loves us enough to GIVE IT TO US. Otherwise, we may as well be living for The World.

You would insist that God gave 'trinity' to those FIRST CATHOLICS that introduced it into Christianity. I personally DON'T believe this. For there is MUCH evidence that 'trinity' existed in their previous pagan religion and most likely just 'seemed' like a logical thing to 'carry over' when they converted.

Regardless of 'where' it came from or 'when' we KNOW that it did NOT come from Christ OR His apostles for the concept is NOT EVEN MENTIONED in The Word. To those that accept it SURE there are a few lines of scripture that they can use to defend it. BUT, as you well KNOW, there are MANY falsehoods being taught today that can be defended by a 'few lines of scripture'. Satan IS The Father of Lies and boy don't you know HE IS GOOD AT IT. He is able to take the TRUTH and twist it into lies. And he has some of the most brilliant humans on the planet speaking for him.

My God would NOT leave us IGNORANT of something as PROFOUNDLY important as this 'trinity' would be. And My God would CERTAINLY NEVER have offered information and expect those that He offered it to to MURDER others in order to MAKE them beieve what they were teaching.

So you see, there MUST be 'other gods', and false Christs'. And this would also explain why SO MANY are SO UNSURE about their Salvation. For IF they HAVE accepted the TRUE Christ into their HEARTS; THEY KNOW HIM AND HE THEM. And there is NO WAy that he would EVER abandone them and leave them WONDERING about such an important issue.

BUT, if they are worshiping a 'false Christ', it is VERY easy to SEE how they could be SO confused. And when their worthless testimony is offered to others it only makes it that much easier for Satan to use it to influence others into the 'same game'. For imagine the damage that can be created for one to CONFESS Christ as their Savior but at the same time being a devote of Satan and living their lives for THEMSEVES instead of others. That is CERTAINLY able to influence 'others' in the respect that THE TRUTH gets watered down more and more as this gets passed down from generation to generation. The next thing you know this kind of influence will have churches teaching Yoga, and having SuperBowl parties, and singles nights where they encourage devorcees to 'find a NEW love' in their group. Opening stores in the temple and insisting that women are JUST as capable as men in RUNNING the church. teaching that 'it's OK cause Jesus loves you'.

No Free. I have NOT found the evidence that you are 'so quick' to insist exists. ALL the evidence that I have found concerning this doctrine points to a 'man-made' doctrine that offers NOTHING but confusion. And my God is NOT the author of confusion, but of PEACE as in ALL churches of The Saints.

MEC

 

[Free]

That's nice but you're still not using all that Scripture reveals about Jesus.

Do you think that Mormons and JWs are saved?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Imagican:

Now, I am UNABLE to judge the heart of another. I can certainly witness their behavior and recognize that which is From Above and that which is from 'some OTHER sorce'. But even then I am STILL unable to judge the heart of another. There is not a SINGLE individual that I have EVER met that I am able to determine IS SAVED or IS NOT. That is NOT my job. Mine is to simply love them as 'myself' and offer WHATEVER I am able in order to HELP them.

quote by Free:

That's nice but you're still not using all that Scripture reveals about Jesus.

Do you think that Mormons and JWs are saved?

This just made me laff. I donno why. MEC, I really enjoyed reading your post. Much truth, wisdom and just plain God-given common sense.

 

[Imagican]

That's nice but you're still not using all that Scripture reveals about Jesus.

Do you think that Mormons and JWs are saved?

See what I mean? Free, 'I' am UNABLE to judge that. I do NOT believe as the JW's or Mormon's believe. BUT, I am NOT worthy to judge their Salvation. What is NOT possible for man IS for God. And I trust that He WILL judge according to His Will and I am satisfied with this.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And Free, WHY would I choose to trust the teachings of men over that which Christ Himself taught? Why would I choose to believe in Christ yet follow the teachings of men? If there were a SINGLE instance in The Word that Christ offered us the information that He IS God, then I would BELIEVE it. Since there is NOT, then I accept Christ for EXACTLY WHO He stated He IS; The Son of God. I need NO theological seminary to TEACH me THEIR understanding of The Godhead. The Word IS enough and what it does NOT provide, The Spirit IS ABLE.

Free, my Salvation is NOT dependant upon the teachings of men. It IS dependant upon my PERSONAL relationship WITH God, through His Son. I TRUST God and I TRUST His Son. I CANNOT deny the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus'. And a BILLION scholars CANNOT 'save ME'.

When one considers the history of those that created 'trinity' it is PLAIN to see that these were MOSTLY NOT FOLLOWING THE SAME CHRIST THAT I KNOW. For The Christ that I KNOW taught Love and forgiveness. Yet these that created 'trinity' actually murdered those that refused to accept it. Do you honestly believe that Christ would have people that believed in Him MURDER others?

Christ came as an example. He offered us an example of HOW we ARE to live 'in love'. Anything or anyone that is in defiance of His example CANNOT TRULY believe in Him. They can USE His Name, but when we boil it down to 'the basic TRUTH', there is NO way that one can 'claim' to follow The Son of God and intentionally HURT others. It doesn't work that way. the ONLY way that we can actually KNOW who The Body IS is through the actions of those that 'claim' to be 'part of it'. People haters are hardly 'parts of The Body'. They are CONTRARY to The Body. Teaching a 'body' of their own and INSISTING that ALL others MUST be a 'part of THEIR body' or Else.

And when people such as myself come along and point out their shortcomings, they simply begin to accuse US of being LOST or following Satan.

I attempt to accuse NO ONE. I simply try to point out The Truth to any and everyone that will listen. The Catholics? I accuse NO living Catholic of ANYTHING other than 'being confused'. Those of the past I can, with clear conscience, offer that these were NOT the 'Christians' that they 'claimed to be'. For those that truly follow Christ would NEVER kill others over a 'belief' that was NEVER even taught by Christ or His apostles.

And the murdering that took place over 'trinity' is only ONE example of the NATURE of the people that created it. These were also the people that condoned the enslavement of the native americans and piracy so long as the church received it's share of the wealth obtained. Filty lucre and the love of it speak for themselves.

And these are NOT accusations. These are little pieces of history. I accuse NO ONE, simply point out the truth of history as we KNOW it. For to STATE the truth concerning one's actions is NOT to accuse but to 'point out'. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. I DO NOT hate those that follow Catholocism. I simply UNDERSTAND that what they follow is NOT THE TRUTH. And if there is ANY animosity within my heart for Catholocism it IS for THAT and that ALONE; Catholocism. Not the people that follow it but the religion itself.

Not trying to go off subject but attmepting an offering a 'better understanding' so far as 'trinity' is concerned. For ONCE one IS able to come to the truth of WHO created it, it is MUCH easier to see JUST how dangerous these people and their doctrines TRULY ARE.

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

That's nice but you're still not using all that Scripture reveals about Jesus.

Do you think that Mormons and JWs are saved?

See what I mean? Free, 'I' am UNABLE to judge that. I do NOT believe as the JW's or Mormon's believe. BUT, I am NOT worthy to judge their Salvation. What is NOT possible for man IS for God. And I trust that He WILL judge according to His Will and I am satisfied with this.

MEC

MEC, in light of certain undeniable Biblical doctrines, you should be able to make that determination. That was a privilege given to the ekklesia in both Matthew 16 and 18. It's the privilege of binding and loosing. We as the church have the ability to inspect one's doctrines and determine if they are Biblical and rebuke them as necessary. Now we both know the RCC takes this to legalistic extremes sometimes; but both we (prots and nondenoms) and them have much in common in the area of essential doctrine.

With that and knowing the basic beliefs of both sects, I can say they are on the fringes, dare I say, with one step outside of Biblical salvific doctrine. They deny certain Biblical doctrines which puts them on very dangerous ground.

 

[Imagican]

That's nice but you're still not using all that Scripture reveals about Jesus.

Do you think that Mormons and JWs are saved?

See what I mean? Free, 'I' am UNABLE to judge that. I do NOT believe as the JW's or Mormon's believe. BUT, I am NOT worthy to judge their Salvation. What is NOT possible for man IS for God. And I trust that He WILL judge according to His Will and I am satisfied with this.

MEC

MEC, in light of certain undeniable Biblical doctrines, you should be able to make that determination. That was a privilege given to the ekklesia in both Matthew 16 and 18. It's the privilege of binding and loosing. We as the church have the ability to inspect one's doctrines and determine if they are Biblical and rebuke them as necessary. Now we both know the RCC takes this to legalistic extremes sometimes; but both we (prots and nondenoms) and them have much in common in the area of essential doctrine.

With that and knowing the basic beliefs of both sects, I can say they are on the fringes, dare I say, with one step outside of Biblical salvific doctrine. They deny certain Biblical doctrines which puts them on very dangerous ground.

Victor,

Been awhile, my friend, and as always I agree with MOST of what you have offered.

But I still MUST maintain that "I" personally am unable to judge anothers Salvation or lack thereof. I can certain view one's behavior and discern whether or not it is proper, but their Salvation is something that MUST be judged by a source 'greater than myself'.

Do I BELIEVE that Mormons are 'saved'? Vic, I do NOT KNOW. The JW's? I am NOT qualified to determine the answer to that. I can say that I DO NOT believe as they. But then I have found FEW that believe as I do.

I have encountered MANY that INSIST that they KNOW that they ARE SAVED. Couldn't offer ONE PIECE on scriptural understanding if you sat and talked with them, Treat their neighbors like dirt. Drink, smoke, cuss, commit adultury at ANY given opportunity, use God's name in vain, and just generally hate everyone on the planet including themselves; but they KNOW that they ARE SAVED.

I personally don't believe that 'positive thinking' or 'positive reinforcement' IS the answer. For I believe that MANY of these to which I refer are simply FOOLING themselves in believing that which they have NO basis to believe other than 'what they have been taught' to say and believe. Are they in for a 'rude awakening' one day. (pardon the pun). For upon judgement many of these will THEN KNOW the TRUTH and that being that IF they had TRULY accepted the TRUE Christ into their hearts, their behavior WOULD have been transformed to more closely resemble that of Christ's. Can we BE perfect? NO WAY. But we are CERTAINLY able to come to a PERFECT understand of the love that we have been commanded to exhibit.

Vic, there WAS a time that I believe the apostles most likely could have made determinations such as salvation. But I can offer this; times HAVE CHANGED. And I can also offer that Peter DIDN'T believe Paul to be an apostle for a period of time. And Peter ALSO didn't believe that the Gentiles were chosen as well as the Jews. So here are TWO instances where an apostle HIMSELF was unable to RIGHTFULLY judge issues of Salvation. And 'honey', I ain't no apostle.

We MUST beware of who and what we decide we are able to judge. Better NOT to judge AT ALL than to make 'false judgements'. For how we CHOOSE to judge will cetainly have a bearing on how we OURSELVES are JUDGED.

So, with these thoughts in mind, please do not think 'less' of me and my understanding. For to do so will offer indication that I DON'T know what I am talking about. Perhaps each of us is given what we are able to grasp. Perhaps some are given more than that which has been offered to me. But the important thing is to understand and accept that which IS GIVEN and to offer as much of it to others as we are able.

It's ALL about LOVE my friend. NOT love of OURSELVES, but that which we are able offer to others. The SAME love that Christ offered us when He willingly was nailed to a cross and died for our sins. GIVING, NOT TAKING. And IF I were to JUDGE YOU, the LEAST that would happen is "I" would be TAKING credit for something that I am unable to do and do not deserve credit for. I would MUCH rather GIVE sound advice and understanding than stand in judgement ANY DAY. Judge NOT lest YE be JUDGED. Boy, I know ME for ONE am certainly not looking forward to that day. For I still sin in ways that I don't even recognize yet. Perhaps with time and age I'll be able to figure most of it out. But, who knows what tomorrow will bring. Best to BE prepared NOW than hope for tomorrow.

Thanks for the input Vic. Always enjoy reading your posts. But, about the judgement thing, I think that if you re-evaluate what you stated you'll see that I have offered NOTHING unscriptural here and maybe a 'little' that goes BEYOND JUST the 'words' in The Bible. For WHAT happens when we 'think' that we have something all figured out and then come to a 'deeper' understanding that is TOTALLY different than that which we 'thought' we knew? I know that it's happened to you and it's certainly happened to me enough. What happens when all that we judged was based on this incomplete understanding? See what I mean?

Bless you My Brother,

MEC

 

[Free]

MEC, I really enjoyed reading your post. Much truth, wisdom and just plain God-given common sense.

:o

That's nice but you're still not using all that Scripture reveals about Jesus.

Do you think that Mormons and JWs are saved?

See what I mean? Free, 'I' am UNABLE to judge that. I do NOT believe as the JW's or Mormon's believe. BUT, I am NOT worthy to judge their Salvation. What is NOT possible for man IS for God. And I trust that He WILL judge according to His Will and I am satisfied with this.

MEC

As Vic has stated, a Christian ought to be able to make that judgement. What you are essentially saying, and this was my point in asking you the question, is that Jesus can be anything to anyone, as long as he is referred to as "the Son of God", and they are still saved. But that really is nonsense given what NT states about such matters.

And Free, WHY would I choose to trust the teachings of men over that which Christ Himself taught?

I don't think I have enough fingers or toes to count the number of times I have told you how fallacious this is. The same goes for the rest of your arguments against the Trinity so I will leave those alone.

The problem with this argument is that you think that you have discovered that the Trinity is false, or had it revealed to you, by reading the Bible. You think that all who believe in the Trinity believe in a man-made doctrine. You believe that your understanding of Scripture is superior to everyone else's and that anyone who believes in the Trinity would never have believed it if it hadn't been taught to them.

Free, my Salvation is NOT dependant upon the teachings of men. It IS dependant upon my PERSONAL relationship WITH God, through His Son.

But it is dependent on the nature of Christ, who he is.

And a BILLION scholars CANNOT 'save ME'.

No, no they can't, but the truth of what they offer can.

When all is said and done Imagican, you have no leg left to stand on regarding the Trinity. Your strongest arguments come from only a partial use of Scripture and this is supported by your inability to judge the truthfulness of doctrine. And in the end it is clear from your posts that you actually are judging trinitarians to be non-Christians.

 

[Arj]

As i was reading the posts of MEC,i could see the truth jumping out at me off the screen.I know of some mormons being born again so how could i judge them to be unworthy when i in fact could be the unworthy one.

 

[Imagican]

As i was reading the posts of MEC,i could see the truth jumping out at me off the screen.I know of some mormons being born again so how could i judge them to be unworthy when i in fact could be the unworthy one.

Now HERE'S a man that has learned 'at LEAST a LITTLE wisdom' from ABOVE. Judge NOT lest YE be JUDGED. Take the PLANK out of your OWN eye so that you may see the splinter in your neighbors.

Amen my Brother.

And I would add this: Beware of what you 'THINK' you know for ONE DAY you may just HAVE TO apologize when the TRUTH is TRULY revealed. Better to learn this now than to face this TRUTH at judgement when there is NO LONGER a chance to change. For UPON judgement the TRUTH WILL BE REVEALED TO ALL. And there will NO LONGER be the ability to lie to others or one's self.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

As i was reading the posts of MEC,i could see the truth jumping out at me off the screen.I know of some mormons being born again so how could i judge them to be unworthy when i in fact could be the unworthy one.

No Free,

I am NOT saying that anyone that 'says' that they believe Jesus Christ IS The Son of God WILL SAVE THEM. I don't HAVE the answer to that. What I AM saying is that REGARDLESS of WHAT one 'claim's', it is USELESS IF the Jesus that they profess is NOT the TRUE Christ. I am NOT able to judge the hearts of ANYONE, (not EVEN my OWN). That if for a later time and for a power GREATER than I. I AM able to recieve CONVICTION from The Spirit, (guidance FROM God), but it's limits are as limited as I myself AM.

What I have attempted to offer here is that ONE DAY we, who accept The Word, KNOW that Satan will set himself up HERE ON EARTH AS GOD. And for those that believe Christ IS God, in essence, we may as well say that Satan will set himself up AS CHRIST AS WELL, (the second comming to those that don't KNOW any better), and be WORSHIPED as SUCH. Now, HOW do you think he was able to instill such a plan. For IF mankind TRULY knew the TRUE Christ, then SURELY mankind would recognize a SUBSTITUTE. So HOW do you 'think' that Satan WILL accomplish his GOAL of being accepted and WORSHIPED AS The Christ?

Please realize that this is NOT some 'idle' plan that he would be able to accomplish 'overnight', this is something that he has been 'working on' since Christ came, (in the flesh). He IS the Father of LIES. And SOMEHOW, through LIES he WILL accomplish his goal. (I believe that he has MOSTLY ALREADY fulfilled his desire and plan). Now HOW do YOU believe that this was performed? What could Satan POSSIBLY DO to 'dupe' mankind into believing that HE IS CHRIST, God Himself? The answer, I BELIEVE, is to TEACH, (somehow), that Christ is 'something OTHER THAN' what He TRULY IS.

For we KNOW that upon judgement that MANY, (please note; not a 'few' but MANY), will come to Christ and point out all the WONDEROUS 'things' that they DID in 'HIS NAME'. And His answer is; Go away for I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU. Now, HOW COULD THIS BE. For IF they performed what they DID in the NAME OF CHRIST, how is it that He doesn't even KNOW them? And WHO is being refered to in these passages? Who are 'those' that will make this statement to Christ? Obviously these will be those that 'call themselves' Christians. For WHO else performs acts in 'the name of Christ'?

So, you see. I am NOT here for the purpose of 'idle chatter'. What I offer I offer for ONE REASON: IMPORTANCE. The importance that we 'be aware' of Satan and his MANY guises. That he is BENT on ONE PURPOSE and ONE PURPOSE ONLY. And I believe that MANY are UNAWARE of 'just how SERIOUS this TRULY IS. The churches have chosen to IGNORE what I offer here and this in itself is pure indication of 'influence'. Influence that began LONG LONG ago and has gone UNNOTICED by MOST until NOW it is almost indetectable to those that have fallen prey to their teachings.

We KNOW that the churches have misled MANY throughout the ages. We KNOW this. And, at times have resorted to outright MURDER in order to instill their 'teachings' among the masses. Until NOW we find ourselves with such WATERED DOWN theology that even those that 'believe' are misled. For in the end God will SHORTEN THE DAYS so that EVEN the VERY ELECT are led astray. Do you understand what this MEANS; EVEN THE VERY ELECT. That means that to insure that there is SOMEONE left that understands and follows the TRUTH, God will have to cut mankinds time SHORT in order to insure that EVEN The Saints are NOT led 'astray'.

Now, do you believe that we are 'close' to prophetic fulfillment of 'the end'? I don't mean tomorrow, (but WHO KNOWS), but CLOSE, as in MOST of the prophecy of the Bible HAS BEEN FULFILLED? If so, then the words that I offer take on a WHOLE NEW MEANING HUH?

So, while you DON'T agree with my understanding, PLEASE beware that it is NOT based on denominationalism, churches, 'man-made' theology. It IS based on The Word and what it ACTUALLY STATES.

And FREE, my understanding is NOT 'SUPERIOR' to that of ANYONE. It MAY BE 'different', but CERTAINLY NOT SUPERIOR. For I am a 'lowly WORM', undeserving of LIFE were it NOT for the LOVE of God. But I cannot STOP what IS revealed. WhY ME? Can't answer that one. Perhaps as PUNISHMENT for the life that I have lived I am required to bare a burder greater than SOME. I don't know the answer to this and most likely NEVER will until it's time is revealed. But I DO know that the words that I offer you are NOT MY OWN. For even the ideas that I now portray are as foreign to me as the life of those living in Siberia.

Crazy? I know it sounds like it.

MEC



MEC

 

[Free]

As i was reading the posts of MEC,i could see the truth jumping out at me off the screen.I know of some mormons being born again so how could i judge them to be unworthy when i in fact could be the unworthy one.

Being "born again" and being Mormon are two mutually exclusive things. If one is born again they cannot be a Mormon; they would move from being a Mormon to being a Christian.

I am NOT saying that anyone that 'says' that they believe Jesus Christ IS The Son of God WILL SAVE THEM.

But it is the logical conclusion of your arguments. Your theology opens the door for a whole host of contradictory belief systems to all lay claim to Christianity.

So, while you DON'T agree with my understanding, PLEASE beware that it is NOT based on denominationalism, churches, 'man-made' theology. It IS based on The Word and what it ACTUALLY STATES.

And as I have stated many times over, this is a fallacious argument. Stop using it.

For I am a 'lowly WORM', undeserving of LIFE were it NOT for the LOVE of God.

You make a seemingly humble statement but the rest of your posts say otherwise.

"But I DO know that the words that I offer you are NOT MY OWN. "

Your words are "not [your] own" but my words are someone else's. Point proven.

Your words are your understanding of Scripture and my words are my understanding.

There is one Jesus and he is God incarnate.

 

[Imagican]

And Free,

Your statement concerning Mormons was made THROUGH 'your understanding'. And once again, you offer the indication that YOU have been given some 'special ability' to discern WHO WILL and WHO WON'T be forgiven., (The Pope believes that He has this ability also). While I certainly RESPECT your 'opinion', I certainly don't agree with it. And PLEASE don't start 'indicating' that I am PROMOTING Mormonism IN ANY WAY, for I AM NOT. I simply offer that "I" am UNABLE to judge the hearts of those that follow this 'religion'.

Nor am I able to judge YOUR HEART. I can certainly 'listen' to your words, but that by NO MEANS allows me the authority to JUDGE what is TRULY IN YOUR HEART. But I will offer this, "The Word makes it CLEAR that we are to BEWARE of who, what, and HOW we CHOOSE to 'judge'. And with this in mind I PERSONALLY choose to heed this meassage and understand WHAT it is MEANT to accomplish.

No, simple STATEMENTS do NOT save or destroy one's ability to recieve Salvation. So SAYING that 'I beieve in Christ' DOES NOT assure one of Salvation. ESPECIALLY if the 'Christ' that they profess IS NOT the TRUE CHRIST. Now THAT is my POINT in this entire discussion. I started quite simply with my opening statement. For YOU may be a versed Bible scholar but MOST here are NOT. I, therefore, started by posing a question to ellicit THOUGHT in the direction so that those that ask it may be able to SEEK the answer. And, once finding the ANSWER to the FIRST question, then be able to attempt discernment as to the NATURE and IDENTITY of the TRUE CHRIST.

NO Free, YOU may 'think' that much of what I offer is my 'simple' understanding but I will state again, I KNOW that MUCH of it comes NOT from 'my OWN mind or heart'. For these understandings are JUST the OPPOSITE of the understanding that I lived with for MOST of my life. Things that I would argue AGAINST, JUST AS YOU DO NOW, just a FEW YEARS ago. I have not CHOSEN to understand what I do. I had NO CHOICE. And may I add that IF YOU DOUBT what I offer as being a possibility, then you are CERTAINLY in denial of The Spirit. For God DOES offer to some what He MAY NOT to 'others'. i have witnessed this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER...........

So, before you are so QUICK to offer JUDGEMENT rather than UNDERSTANDING, it would be wise to beware of WHO, WHAT, and WHY you make such judgements. For ONE DAY we have been ASSURED that; 'as we CHOOSE to judge others, SO TOO will we OURSELVES BE JUDGED.

MEC

 

[Free]

Your statement concerning Mormons was made THROUGH 'your understanding'.

It was made through careful research of Mormonism and personal discussions with Mormons and then compared with what Scripture states.

And once again, you offer the indication that YOU have been given some 'special ability' to discern WHO WILL and WHO WON'T be forgiven.,

I certainly wouldn't claim such a thing. I merely have the discernment that is given all Christians -- the ability to judge truth from non-truth. Of course, with all the post-modernism that has infiltrated the Church, the ability for Christians to judge truth from non-truth has all but disappeared.

The whole gospel is built on the premise that everything else is not good news, that everything else is error. This is carried throughout the entire NT. If Christians do not have the ability to judge truth from error, then the entire Bible is meaningless.

I simply offer that "I" am UNABLE to judge the hearts of those that follow this 'religion'.

The beliefs of Mormonism and Christianity are such that they are mutually exclusive religions. One cannot follow Mormonism and also claim to follow the Christ of Holy Scripture. If someone in Mormonism claims to be born again they are either deceived and fail to understand what being "born again" really means, or they need to get out of Mormonism.

That I can judge simply based on what Scripture states. This is one of the intents of Scripture. This really is not that difficult.

NO Free, YOU may 'think' that much of what I offer is my 'simple' understanding but I will state again, I KNOW that MUCH of it comes NOT from 'my OWN mind or heart'. For these understandings are JUST the OPPOSITE of the understanding that I lived with for MOST of my life.

That does not mean that it is not your own understanding. Just because you changed your mind doesn't mean that what you believed before is wrong or that you obtained this understanding through some other means than your previous understanding.

I have not CHOSEN to understand what I do. I had NO CHOICE.

But you have a choice now.

 

[Devekut]

What Christian in their right orthodox mind would consider Mormonism to be Christian?

If we, the Christians, do not have a right to define what Christianity is by turning back to our scripture and historical understanding of the faith, then who does?

This notion that we are whatever we choose to call ourselves is a deeply misguided individualism. It robs language of any real singificance whatsoever. The term "Christian" is not an empty category. It precludes a certain set of beliefs which Mormons have deeply betrayed.

The fact of the matter is that Mormonism sprung up in the 19th century, abolised the Trinity, declared brand new doctrines unheard of in all of Christendom, subverts the authority of scripture by declaring their doctrines to have precedence over interpretation, declares all of orthodox Christendom apostates and then proceeds to write their own scriptures supposedly revealed by God Himself.

This is clearly a new religion that relies heavily on Christian inspiration.

 

[Imagican]

What Christian in their right orthodox mind would consider Mormonism to be Christian?

If we, the Christians, do not have a right to define what Christianity is by turning back to our scripture and historical understanding of the faith, then who does?

This notion that we are whatever we choose to call ourselves is a deeply misguided individualism. It robs language of any real singificance whatsoever. The term "Christian" is not an empty category. It precludes a certain set of beliefs which Mormons have deeply betrayed.

The fact of the matter is that Mormonism sprung up in the 19th century, abolised the Trinity, declared brand new doctrines unheard of in all of Christendom, subverts the authority of scripture by declaring their doctrines to have precedence over interpretation, declares all of orthodox Christendom apostates and then proceeds to write their own scriptures supposedly revealed by God Himself.

This is clearly a new religion that relies heavily on Christian inspiration.

First of all let me difine MY definition of "Christian": The word itself was a derragotory label used by the Jews and Romans to 'distinguish' what they considered to be 'lowlifes'. The word 'Christian' appears ONLY TWICE in the ENTIRE Bible, "Christians' ONLY ONCE. Now, when we consider WHAT the ACTUAL dfinition of 'Christian' IS; "Anyone confessing a belief in Christ", I think that it is your understanding that is 'tainted' here.

I have YET to promote or agree with Mormonism. There is MUCH of their teaching and belief that IS askew, (according to my understanding), but they DO profess Christ to BE 'their Savior'. And when we consider that 'all fall short', we have understanding that there is NOT ONE OF US Performing a 'perfect walk'.

So, as example of what I have previously offered: OBVIOUSLY you are a 'trinitarian', for those that accept this 'doctrine' seem to be the overwhelming 'group' that 'believes' that THEY ARE ABLE TO JUDGE THE HEARTS OF OTHERS. Living in the SAME Spirit of the Catholics that 'created' this 'doctrine'. For they TOO believe that they are able to 'grant' or 'deny' Salvation according to THEIR beliefs.

And I contend that there is not a single person on this planet that is ABLE to judge AS God. And to attempt to do this is to attempt to usurp the AUTHORITY OF GOD and become 'their OWN Gods'. For YOUR judgement will NOT be by YOU, but by God and His Son.

Now, HOW could one BELIEVE in Christ and hold such contempt for their 'fellow man'. For Christ came for ONE PUPOSE: Forgiveness. And HOW could one POSSIBLY expect or even CLAIM forgiveness for themselves WITHOUT the ability to forgive others?

Mormons saved? I don't KNOW the answer to this. But I do KNOW this: there are MANY out there that 'believe' that they are 'better' than others and 'claim' to BE CHRISTIANS that will SURELY be surprised when it's time for their OWN personal judgement.

Now, for arguments sake Davekut, WHAT denomination do YOU follow? For as far as I know, you follow a cult that it JUST as DANGEROUS as Mormonism. Uh, let me guess...........Catholic?

MEC

 

[Devekut]

when we consider WHAT the ACTUAL dfinition of 'Christian' IS; "Anyone confessing a belief in Christ", I think that it is your understanding that is 'tainted' here

See, I am not prepared to be quite so liberal for fear of the consequences. We know in India, for example, that many devout Hindu's adopt Jesus into their pantheon and even confess his Lordship. We see many people in the West today claiming to be "Christian-Buddhists" who will also call Jesus their Savior, but the Jesus they consider to do the saving is much more akin to a Buddha than the Christ of Christianity.

Anyone can do a whole great series of semantic gymnastics to contort themselves into that statement "Christ is my Savior". It is only when we press them further on that point that we realize how truly other they are.

Would you defend the Gnostics as Christians? They had their own scriptures and own theories about Christ's death, they too professed the creeds of the Church.

Lastly, where do you find this criteria that "anyone confessing a belief in Christ" is a Christian? Where do you get the authority to develop that criteria? Doesn't it neccessitate a certain kind of belief in Christ?

The issue here is "where do we draw the line for Christian identity"? The fact is you draw the line based on your personal opinion. I draw it in accordance with nearly two millienia of solid Christian tesitimony and tradition, including Scripture.

Many of us have this misguided individualist notions that just because a label denotes our individual identity, we therefore have control over what that label means. This is a fallacy. Language does not belong to the individual. Language belongs to the community because it is the common means of communication. It is not really a matter of "personal opinion".

And I contend that there is not a single person on this planet that is ABLE to judge AS God

I do not see anybody disagreeing with you. Are we saved because we bear the label Christian? I am not judging people, I am not commenting on the sincerity of their beliefs or the purity of their heart, I am trying to preserve the integrity of definitions. The term Christian bears with it a certain criteria that the Mormons do not meet.

Now, HOW could one BELIEVE in Christ and hold such contempt for their 'fellow man'

See, I'm not holding contempt for anyone. If someone presents to me an airplane decked with feathers and I observe its not a bird, I am not holding contempt against airplanes, birds, nor feathered planes. I can recognize that they share commonalities. I can see that they both fly, but that one is not a "type" of the other.

Mormons saved? I don't KNOW the answer to this

Neither do I.

Now, for arguments sake Davekut, WHAT denomination do YOU follow? For as far as I know, you follow a cult that it JUST as DANGEROUS as Mormonism. Uh, let me guess...........Catholic?

This post almost comes across as though you are angry for not getting the label orthodox. I can't help it that all of Christendom has wisely professed Trinitarian belief and that this has been solemnly defined as inherently Christian.

Are you so definsive about Mormonism because you, like them, think that Christianity fell into apostasy immediately after scripture was written? Do you defend it because you, like them, profess something to be truly Christian whereas the vast majority of Christians consider your particular belief alien?

Yes, I am Catholic. Catholicism is half of all Christians on the planet and it has been present distinctly since the beginning of the Christian religion. Catholicism, unlike Mormonism, did not just spring forth one day with a series of bogus claims like "Jesus came to North America". If you prefer, I can show you that the essential elements of Catholic Tradition are all present in scripture and the beliefs of the early Church. This can not be said for Mormons.

 

[Imagican]

There is NO anger in my heart towards you or anyone else. I was simply attempting to 'point out' that the MAJORITY of those that I have encountered that BELIEVE they are able to discern the hearts of others ARE Catholics.

You 'point out' that over half the 'so called' Christians on this planet ARE Catholics. I will point out that STRAIGHT IS the gate and narrow IS the WAY that leadeth unto LIFE and FEW there be that find it.

The simple fact that you point out would indicate that either scripture is askew or the statistic you refer to point in a direction CONTRADICTORY to such a group being in touch with 'the TRUTH'.

For you see, it WILL BE the MAJORITY of those that 'claim' Christianity that WILL usher in the BEAST. Also, there WILL be a 'falling away' and this 'falling away' will NOT be a diminishing of 'religion', just a diminishing of TRUTH. For the Beast WILL be worshiped by those that 'follow religion'. Worshiping concepts and IDEAS more so than the Creator; 'man-made' concepts and IDEAS.

I didn't GUESS you were Catholic,it is OBVIOUS in your understanding offered in these dicussions. And Dave, PLEASE understand that I have NO animosity towards 'anyONE' professing such a 'belief'. I do NOT believe that 'being Catholic' makes ANYONE a 'bad' PERSON. But I will offer that this 'belief system' falls WAY short in 'my understanding' of what is asked of us BY God. The simple FACT that the Catholic church persecuted the Jews as they did is a PRIME indication that they were NOT following Christ. For the TRUTH of the matter is that Christ WAS a Jew in the flesh.

So you see, Your belief system, 'created by men', HAS taught that IT IS able to discern the Salavation of others, (to it's OWN demise). and MOST denominations did NOT completely SEPERATE themselves from it through Martin Luther. They simply SPLINTERED into groups that saw only 'bits and pieces' of the falacy of the Catholic teachings. They carried MOST right on over with em. So we find ourselves today with MOST denominations simply being 'offshoots' OF the Catholic faith.

Apostacy DID begin not AFTER Christ's death but BEFORE. And we have scripture to PROVE this. We were warned that durring Christ's life there were already those that were attempting to subvert His teachings and that immediately AFTER His DEATH, there were MANY claiming His NAME but teaching 'their OWN understanding' which was CONTRADICTORY to His teachings.

Paul wrote many letters concerning this VERY ISSUE. Even wrote one to ROME.

You seem to have been ABLE to 'agree' that there is MORE than ONE Jesus. But that there is ONLY ONE TRUE CHRIST. The point of this discussion was to allow those that were UNAWARE to realize and then be able to make efforts to distinguish the ONE from all the 'others'. For those like you and myself, WE believe that we HAVE FOUND the TRUE Jesus. The 'proof is in the pudding'. Those that ARE 'conformed' into a 'likeness OF Christ', (the one IN The Word), will shine with His brilliance. All others WILL reveal thmeselves THROUGH their 'light'. And the MOST important distinguishing factor is LOVE, my brother. Those that LOVE their brothers and sisters AS THEMSELVES 'will' distinguish themselves from those that choose to LOVE THEMSELVES MORE.

So, ANY 'religion' that teaches hate or disdain for ALL others besides thiir OWN are 'self-lovers' and have MISSED what Christ offered. For WHAT Christ offered was LOVE for EVERYONE regardless of their 'religion'.

So, in this respect, IF there ARE Christian Buhdists and these practice the LOVE that Christ offered through His example, I, for one, CANNOT say that they are 'LOST' simply because they do not 'practice' their 'religion' as I do mine. I KNOW that God IS able to judge their HEARTS and that MAY WELL BE all that is needed to 'be saved'; the love of God above all else and the love of neihbor AS self.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Devekut]

This is where I think you are confused...

1. The Catholic Church does not believe itself to have the authority to condemn anyone to hell. This has been stated officially. It teaches that none are in hell (in the sense that we do not know who is there). It claims only the authority to set apart from the Catholic Communion those who defy its teachings. "Anathema" is to set apart.

IF there ARE Christian Buhdists and these practice the LOVE that Christ offered through His example, I, for one, CANNOT say that they are 'LOST' simply because they do not 'practice' their 'religion' as I do mine

I can only re-assert that I do not believe, nor does the Church teach authoratatively, that non-Catholics or even non-Christians are doomed to hell. By saying a person does not fit the criteria of Christian is not my judgement of their soul....it is my judgment of their label.