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mjjcb said:
Mohrb said:
First off, MJJCB wrote:
The OP to this thread started out with a premise that you took issue with. JW's are not Christians, and he was a JW.
The OP was most certainly not a JW. Apart from referring to JWs as "they" more often than not, he has a very over-simplified concept of JW doctrine, and spent more time passive-aggressively attacking JWs than anything else. ... Just the wording of the OP is obviously biased toward a trinitarian viewpoint. Although sometimes he says "we" ... he's already decided that

[quote:1hwoj7js]"If Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega (the first and last Greek letters), then the "first and the last"Â must refer to Jehovah, so the Witnesses claim. But when did Jehovah become dead? The only "first and last"Â who died and lived again is Jesus."
So, he's insisting that if two people use the same phrase, than those two must be two persons in one being... something that no one would find in any way logical unless they've been indoctrinated by a trinitarian church. Moreover... JWs are Christian. Every time the governing body writes a letter, it's signed "The Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses." If the OP was a JW, he'd know that. The original poster copy and pasted an article designed to attack JWs from "gotquestions.org." Notice, after the original post, the original poster (solo) posted nothing but more propaganda from anti-JW attack sites... He had plenty of Ad hominem and Ad populum fallacious statements... but never made a single logical point. i.e. he stopped in to troll a group that wasn't likely to defend itself... I'd wager because it makes him feel "tough."

I hate to put it so bluntly... but honestly... some time try asking an unbiased party what they find to be logical. Ask someone who's always been an atheist (therefore has not been indoctrinated to believe one way or the other). That way you can get an unbiased opinion.

Chris, my mistake. I have to admit when I jumped in the conversation, it was well after it had been established and didn't read all of it. Interestingly, I went to see "Solo"'s body of work by clicking on his name, but apparently he is no longer a member, and I couldn't even view past posts.

Really, if we ask someone without any faith (an atheist) for their opinion, they from their perspective would say we are all loonies. Faith is complete folly to those who can't open their mind to it.

You can say when ever the governing body writes a letter addressed as "Christians", but that doesn't make it true. Can you give my post another read? Are you able to see my side of this issue, even if you disagree? From my perspective, a Christian is defined by his acknowledgment that Jesus was and is God Incarnate. To deny this and worship Jehovah, might make you a spiritual person, but it doesn't make you a Christian.

Mohrb said:
Listen to this analogy.
You inherit a very valuable and rare oil painting by a well known artist; say Van Gough.
You then see an identical painting on an action web site up for sale.
You contact the auction house and they immediately set about having both paintings analyzed.
They discover one oil painting to be much older that the other...which painting do you want to keep?
The older one of the newer one?
"Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because the age of something does not automatically make it correct or better than something newer. This is made quite obvious by the following example: The theory that witches and demons cause disease is far older than the theory that microrganisms cause diseases. Therefore, the theory about witches and demons must be true."

I thought his analogy was interesting. Simplistic, but then again, all analogies are simplistic compared to the Glory of God. The point that it makes (or made to me) was that you have the basic tenets of Christianity that had always been accepted, and Russell came along and re-wrote the foundation of the Church. I can't see how after ~1800 years of understanding His deity, you can reject Jesus as God based on a new initiative and fully adopt that of someone else.[/quote:1hwoj7js]



Hi mjjcb

Please by all means , tell us what makes a person a Christian.

So far, you have told us that JW's are not christians, but you claim to be a christian. So now, please lay out for us, what makes one a Christian.
 
Mysteryman said:
Hi mjjcb

Please by all means , tell us what makes a person a Christian.

So far, you have told us that JW's are not christians, but you claim to be a christian. So now, please lay out for us, what makes one a Christian.

Feel free to call me Mike if you want. The initials of my family are confusing I'm sure.

Look, Mysteryman, there are several of us who have been engaged in a conversation with Chris who I believe would agree with me in separating those who hold that Jesus is God with those who do not. I'm not saying who will have eternal life. This is God's Providence. I am saying there is One Christian Church made up of different denominations that accepts the divinity of Christ. This is crucial. Why? Among many things, the Gospel of John.

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

When the New Testament began, Jesus' followers became known as followers of The Way. They preached, taught, and proclaimed that Jesus was the only way to come into the presence of God.

Before Jesus died on the cross for payment for the sins of the whole world, Jesus was telling his disciples, that he was going away. Thomas, one of the disciples, wanting to know more information asked Jesus, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. John 14

Jesus and God the Father are one. When the disciples were looking at Jesus in the flesh, they were looking at the Father. When they heard Jesus speak, they heard God speak. When they saw Jesus do some miracle, the disciples saw God the Father doing the miracles.

Jesus was and is God and is the exact representation of God the Father. Jesus was also the exact representation of what God intended man to be in the first place.

So, Jesus tells them to believe. He tells us to believe.
 
mjjcb said:
Mysteryman said:
Hi mjjcb

Please by all means , tell us what makes a person a Christian.

So far, you have told us that JW's are not christians, but you claim to be a christian. So now, please lay out for us, what makes one a Christian.

Feel free to call me Mike if you want. The initials of my family are confusing I'm sure.

Look, Mysteryman, there are several of us who have been engaged in a conversation with Chris who I believe would agree with me in separating those who hold that Jesus is God with those who do not. I'm not saying who will have eternal life. This is God's Providence. I am saying there is One Christian Church made up of different denominations that accepts the divinity of Christ. This is crucial. Why? Among many things, the Gospel of John.

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

When the New Testament began, Jesus' followers became known as followers of The Way. They preached, taught, and proclaimed that Jesus was the only way to come into the presence of God.

Before Jesus died on the cross for payment for the sins of the whole world, Jesus was telling his disciples, that he was going away. Thomas, one of the disciples, wanting to know more information asked Jesus, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. John 14

Jesus and God the Father are one. When the disciples were looking at Jesus in the flesh, they were looking at the Father. When they heard Jesus speak, they heard God speak. When they saw Jesus do some miracle, the disciples saw God the Father doing the miracles.

Jesus was and is God and is the exact representation of God the Father. Jesus was also the exact representation of what God intended man to be in the first place.

So, Jesus tells them to believe. He tells us to believe.


Hi Mike

First, I would like to thank you for being kind and considerate. I don't mean to put you on the spot, as I would also like to hear from Mohrb as well, as he does believe to be a Christian.

What I see within this conversation , is a lot of scripture being tossed too a fro. Not that this is a bad thing. Most of the time it is good to air out the differences.

But I have seen in the past, as I have been on christian forums for many years now. And only on this forum for a couple of months. But the same discussions , maybe with a twist from time to time, are constantly being hashed out from different poster, portraying many differing views.

I have always believed, that being a Christian, is not exactly according to doctrine itself. Even though there are many places that scripture is of the most importance. Or maybe I should say, that scripture is of the utmost importance. But, what I am getting at is this > We are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, and one of the things he has told us, is that he came to reveal the Father to us. As sons of God, being Christians, sons always have to claim a Father. Jesus told a certain group that they were of their father the devil. We are of our dear heavenly Father , the Lord God Almighty.

He has called us, and chosen us. Not that we chose him, but that he chose us first. We heed his call, and we accept. God has put into us the Spirit of his Son, in which we cry Abba Father. This seed, or Spirit, is Christ in us. This is not my choice, but I still accept, but His choice, my Father's choice to call me his Son.

What "Makes" me a Christian (Christ IN), is the Spirit of his Son in my heart, crying Abba Father.

I believe , that we grow from this point on, and that learning scripture and allowing God to open the eyes of our understanding, helps us to grow spiritually. We are to have both the Son and the Father, not just one or the other.

Maybe Mohrb will give us his own understanding of what it is that makes one a Christian.

Thanks again.
 
Bronzesnake wrote: This is the bible you rely on if you're a J.W.

... incorrect. Please educate yourself at least -slightly- before making comments about the intelligence of others. That is all.
So you don’t use the N.W.T. in your J.W. church?

Bronzesnake wrote: Listen to this analogy.
You inherit a very valuable and rare oil painting by a well known artist; say Van Gough.
You then see an identical painting on an action web site up for sale.
You contact the auction house and they immediately set about having both paintings analyzed.
They discover one oil painting to be much older that the other...which painting do you want to keep?
The older one of the newer one?

"Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because the age of something does not automatically make it correct or better than something newer. This is made quite obvious by the following example: The theory that witches and demons cause disease is far older than the theory that microrganisms cause diseases. Therefore, the theory about witches and demons must be true."

I would agree with you on this if it were true. However, the analogy although simple, is very effective because it uses relevant parallels. For example; in this analogy the oil painting is done by a world renowned artist – Van Gough.
The oil paintings were scientifically analyzed and conclusions were reached through this scientific investigation. The value was calculated not due to the age per say, but through a scientific conclusion that one of the paintings was unambiguously proven to be painted by the artists Van Gough and one of the paintings was an obvious fraud because it was not painted by Van Gough. This was ascertained through analysis of composition and style, analysis of pigments and analysis of age.

You seem to be ignoring the relevant facts and corroborating evidence I have provided, and you have forwarded a straw man rebuttal by totally disregarding the crux of my analogy – the facts surrounding the translation team for your N.W.T.

Perhaps it would be best to be a bit more thorough in this area.
Here are some well known facts surrounding the members of the N.W.T. translation team.
The following is from
http://www.christian-chat.net/bible-discussions/13400-issues-within-new-world-translation.html

“The truth of that statement is supported by this fact---out of the reported five members of the translation committee involved, at least four of them had no training whatsoever in Greek or in Hebrew. In 1954 in Edinburgh, Scotland, one of the members of the translation team was cross-examined under oath. His name was Fred W. Franz. He was the team member who claimed to be able to read and follow the text from Greek, Hebrew and several other languages including Latin. However, under oath he could not even make a Hebrew to English translation of Genesis 2:4 for those present in the courtroom. In other words, he failed. He could not translate Hebrew. The truth is, neither he nor the rest of the committee had the necessary education or skills to make an accurate translation of the Bible. The real truth is that Fred W. Franz had attended college at the University of Cincinnati. While attending there he was not involved with theological studies, and he dropped out in his sophomore year.

The distortions of the truth in the New World Translation are well-known to most Bible scholars. I'm not a Bible scholar, but having been confronted by Jehovah's Witnesses myself I have made a point of knowing what my Bible actually say, and why it is that the Jehovah's Witness bible is in error. As always, cults on some level try to change who Jesus is, and to make Him...less. Inserting the name Jehovah throughout their translation has been one effort to diminish Jesus. There are reasons that God refers to Himself the way He does. Mere men should not mess around with it.

One really famous, and I believe absolutely intentionally deceptive translational change in the New World Translation centers on the latter part of a verse that most of us are very familiar with, namely John 1:1
. The last part of the verse in the original writing reads: "kai theos ein ho logos
." That's --kai--and, theos--God, ein--was, ho--the, logos--Word. Look at a few legitimate translation comparisons:

"....and the Word was God."-------- International Standard Version

"....and the Word was God."-------- New American Standard Bible

"....and the Word was God."-------- King James Version

"....and the Word was God."-------- American Standard Version

"....and the Word was God."-------- English Revised Version, Webster's Bible Translation, Weymouth New Testament, World English Bible, Young's Literal Translation and on and on and on. Even in Eugene Peterson's loose paraphrase of the Bible he did not deviate there but wrote: "The Word was God."

So what, right? Well, the translation committee for the New World Translation decided to add to the text. For grammatical reasons which only they cling to, they changed it to--- "the word was a god." (Emphasis mine---note also the lower case "g") This isn't really arguable, unless a person wants to be dishonest about it. This is simply a matter of stamping one's theological preconceptions into the text in order to get it to say what one wishes it to say. As followers of Jesus Christ, we know that we ought to allow the text to speak for itself
.â€

There is a great deal of evidence via non Biblical historical sources which corroborate the scriptures by referring to early Christians and Jesus, and the miracles He performed and His resurrection, and that the Christians who were His followers referred to Jesus as God.
These ancient historians include Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian, and the Talmud.

It is astonishing to note that there is enough material in the ancient historical accounts to know that Jesus was worshiped as god, He healed blind and lame people by miracles, and he raised people from the dead and He Himself was resurrected after He had been crucified by Pontius Pilot after being condemned by His own people! This is astonishing and really provides excellent non Biblical corroboration which is extremely powerful.

If the N.W.T. were an original and accurate account of the scriptures then why is there virtually no corroboration for it outside of the “belief†of the J.W. themselves?
If I were a J.W. and I discovered the overwhelming corroborating evidence for the K.J.V. I would denounce the J.W. book and get right with Jesus and fast.

Bronzesnake wrote: The assertion that the Catholic Church somehow perverted the scriptures is only made by ignorant people who do not study any facts for themselves and rely on “elders†or church “leaders†to do the thinking for them.

... or people who have translation experience, an interlinear, a greek>english dictionary, and knowledge of basic grammar. Doesn't take a genius to see the name "YHWH" being translated as "LORD" isn't honest.

Talk about dishonesty! What about all the additions and subtractions in your N.W.T.? Anywhere that Jesus claims to be God has been written out.
The name Jehovah is nowhere to be found in any of the ancient New Testament manuscripts and yet it’s all over the N.W.T. why is that?
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones my friend.

... Bronzesnake... I really do try to treat people with as much respect as possible... but you're spouting off blind accusations with such arrogance...

My friend! It is not my intention to be disrespectful. Please forgive me if I came across as such.
As for your remark... “but you're spouting off blind accusationsâ€
I must take issue with this. “Blind accusations†infers that I have not provided any corroborating evidence to back up my statements. I have gone out of my way to include as much evidence as I possibly can.

If all you want to do is take a proverbial "swing" it someone to justify your own faith... I hope you feel better. When you eventually would like to have an intelligent conversation, I'd be happy to speak with you at that point.
How ironic that statement is...
In any case it appears that you accuse me of being unintelligent simply because you disagree with me...strange.

My purpose here is not to inflate my ego, or insult anyone.
I believe the vast amount of evidence points to the fact that the N.W.T. is a perverted translation assembled by incompetent people with an agenda.
When we attempt to pigeon hole God into a box that makes sense to our fallible human logic, we are at times forced to twist God’s truth in favour of our “truth†in a way that makes human sense to us.
Some of us cannot imagine how God can be three in one, and yet the very concept of God denotes omniscience, omnipotence. Nothing is impossible to God, and yet when we cannot understand a simple thing such as the scriptural reality of the Holy Trinity some of us are forced to insert human logic in order to comfort our reason.

The ancient manuscripts are here for study. They have been and continue to be studied. We know that the early church fathers wrote extensively about the scriptures and all these sources corroborate the New Testament we have in the K.J.V.
Historians have recorded almost 100,000 manuscripts and letters by Church fathers from the first few centuries of this era. These numerous letters and manuscripts contain an astonishing 99% of the almost eight thousand verses in the New Testament!!!

My friend, are you so willing to gamble your eternal soul against the exceedingly overwhelming corroborative evidence against the N.W.T.?
You must ignore all the ancient manuscripts, 24,000 of them which corroborate the K.J.V. virtually identical! You have to ignore all the non Biblical historical corroboration as well, and you must ignore all the archaeological evidence.

Then you must place your faith on one man who quit school in his sophomore year! A man who could not translate a simple verse into Hebrew in a Scottish courtroom!
Why would anyone do such a thing?

I’m sure you are a descent and honest person. Every J.W. I have ever met has shown great respect and kindness, and so I have no reason to believe you are any different.
The J.W. I have met have all been intelligent, so it is extremely perplexing when faced with all this powerful evidence these kind, intelligent people refuse to believe the facts...My intentions are good and honest my friend. Jesus commands us all to increase his flock with the Truth.
He loves you...God/Jesus loves you and is reaching out to you right here right now in the great hope that you will answer His knocking at the door right now brother.
Jesus is God, Jesus died for you brother, now won’t you come to Him and accept His sacrifice?




Take care my friend, and may Jesus bless you beyond your wildest imagination. Amen

John Bronzesnake
 
Why don't we have a book burning ceremony, and let us take every translation known to man, and lets burn them all.

But truthfully, will that solve the issue/problem ? --- NO !

The problem lies in one's ability or inability to "see" scripture and understand scripture. :shades

And only God can open and or close the eyes of one's understanding.

There is not one translation that will open nor close your eyes of spiritual understanding , not one !!

Anything of this world is flawed, and that means every translation known to man. Including the texts I might add ! They are copies of copies, of copies of copies, of copies of copies of copies = hand me downs from man's dirty paws.

Learn to walk with the Lord, and have him open up the eyes of your understanding.

Burn book burn ! :onfire

And stop all of this > translational bickering :fullauto
 
Mysteryman said:
Why don't we have a book burning ceremony, and let us take every translation known to man, and lets burn them all.

But truthfully, will that solve the issue/problem ? --- NO !

The problem lies in one's ability or inability to "see" scripture and understand scripture. :shades

And only God can open and or close the eyes of one's understanding.

There is not one translation that will open nor close your eyes of spiritual understanding , not one !!

Anything of this world is flawed, and that means every translation known to man. Including the texts I might add ! They are copies of copies, of copies of copies, of copies of copies of copies = hand me downs from man's dirty paws.

Learn to walk with the Lord, and have him open up the eyes of your understanding.

Burn book burn ! :onfire

And stop all of this > translational bickering :fullauto

Hello my friend.
I have to disagree with you here.
I think it's important for us to take a good honest look at the evidence and try our very best to follow God's truth.
If we simply give up and allow the enemy to have his way.
God gave us His word for a reason.
His truth is in the pages.
If we follow a false scripture we're doomed to fall into the enemies trap.

God has left us very good proof so that we can easily know His Bible.
It's not a matter of one's ability to discern or see scripture. It's as simple as following the facts.
These are not just "copies of copies of copies" these are the earliest manuscripts of God's word we have, and compared to all other great works of antiquity the Bible stands alone with the earliest dates and smallest gap between the actual events happening and the earliest manuscripts.

The fact is there were many people alive at the time the scriptures were being distributed and if these were false scriptures; Christianity would have died right then and there.

It would be like me writing to a newspaper editor and telling the whole city of Toronto that while I was at Air Canada Center I levitated up in the middle of a Toronto Maple leaf hockey game in front of 20,000 people up to a height of fifteen feet.
What do you think would happen next?
Ya, people who were at the game would reply with their own letters exposing me as a fraud.

Yet when we look at the historical record all we see is corroboration in the form of unbiased reports some of which are from hostile sources that actually corroborate the truth of the scriptures by relating details from within scriptures.
For example, there are historical accounts of governmental officials complaining about those annoying Christians etc.

OK that's all for now I have company.

Bronzesnake
 
Mysteryman said:
Why don't we have a book burning ceremony, and let us take every translation known to man, and lets burn them all.

But truthfully, will that solve the issue/problem ? --- NO !

The problem lies in one's ability or inability to "see" scripture and understand scripture. :shades

And only God can open and or close the eyes of one's understanding.

There is not one translation that will open nor close your eyes of spiritual understanding , not one !!

Anything of this world is flawed, and that means every translation known to man. Including the texts I might add ! They are copies of copies, of copies of copies, of copies of copies of copies = hand me downs from man's dirty paws.

Learn to walk with the Lord, and have him open up the eyes of your understanding.

Burn book burn ! :onfire

And stop all of this > translational bickering :fullauto

Mysteryman, thank you for your response a few posts up. I have crossed the line at times, and I've had to check myself and apologize for doing that. From 1 Peter 3:

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

I am NOT ashamed of the Gospel, and will not give in to what I know is True. However, I need to tone down my rhetoric, understanding that if someone were to cross the line with me, I would put up walls and tune them out. Paul was VERY bold in his defense, so there are times to be bold, but that's a hard line to draw at times.

The thing is, as Bronzesnake pointed out, the NWT isn't "just another translation". The people who edited the existing text went to great lengths to purposefully "de-throne" Jesus. I know there are some people who believe the KJV is the only authentic version, and others are heresy, but I find the vast majority of Christians do not hold this opinion. The NWT bares a stark difference in its portrayal of Jesus compared to other versions. Would you agree with that much?

Sometimes here on these boards, someone says something that comes off wrong in print. Then someone responds in kind, then it all gets ratcheted to a point it was never intended to go. That might be what happened between Bronzesnake and Chris (Mohrb). I'll let them speak for themselves. I can only speak for me.

I do believe that acknowledging Jesus as God is imperative to the Christian faith. I can't see any way around that. To be a Christian, you have got to acknowledge His deity.
I do believe the NWT is purposefully written to dethrone Jesus in light of centuries or supporting belief and scripture.
I do believe Jesus was and always has been, and to put limitations on Him is to strip Him of His Godhood.

I hope Chris responds to your invitation to define what it means to be a Christian. I believe I know what he will say, but I won't say it for him.

Chris?
 
Quote bronzesnake: "His truth is in the pages."


Hi

I disagree. I believe there are many doings and writtings that are influential, including all the translations, that can sway someone in the wrong direction of understanding. You take any translation, and it has error in it. If any group uses that paticular translation, they can sway just about anyone with its improper translated errors that are within it. I have even notice improper punctuation being the guilty thing that sways the reader.

I love my KJV, but even that translation has errors and shortcomings. I know of many people who read the KJV and read it differently and see what they want to see with what they read. Some read into the writtings of the translation, to say something totally different than what was intended.

Nonetheless, it is God who opens up the understanding - Ephesians 1:17 and 18
 
mjjcb said:
Mysteryman said:
Why don't we have a book burning ceremony, and let us take every translation known to man, and lets burn them all.

But truthfully, will that solve the issue/problem ? --- NO !

The problem lies in one's ability or inability to "see" scripture and understand scripture. :shades

And only God can open and or close the eyes of one's understanding.

There is not one translation that will open nor close your eyes of spiritual understanding , not one !!

Anything of this world is flawed, and that means every translation known to man. Including the texts I might add ! They are copies of copies, of copies of copies, of copies of copies of copies = hand me downs from man's dirty paws.

Learn to walk with the Lord, and have him open up the eyes of your understanding.

Burn book burn ! :onfire

And stop all of this > translational bickering :fullauto

Mysteryman, thank you for your response a few posts up. I have crossed the line at times, and I've had to check myself and apologize for doing that. From 1 Peter 3:

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

I am NOT ashamed of the Gospel, and will not give in to what I know is True. However, I need to tone down my rhetoric, understanding that if someone were to cross the line with me, I would put up walls and tune them out. Paul was VERY bold in his defense, so there are times to be bold, but that's a hard line to draw at times.

The thing is, as Bronzesnake pointed out, the NWT isn't "just another translation". The people who edited the existing text went to great lengths to purposefully "de-throne" Jesus. I know there are some people who believe the KJV is the only authentic version, and others are heresy, but I find the vast majority of Christians do not hold this opinion. The NWT bares a stark difference in its portrayal of Jesus compared to other versions. Would you agree with that much?

Sometimes here on these boards, someone says something that comes off wrong in print. Then someone responds in kind, then it all gets ratcheted to a point it was never intended to go. That might be what happened between Bronzesnake and Chris (Mohrb). I'll let them speak for themselves. I can only speak for me.

I do believe that acknowledging Jesus as God is imperative to the Christian faith. I can't see any way around that. To be a Christian, you have got to acknowledge His deity.
I do believe the NWT is purposefully written to dethrone Jesus in light of centuries or supporting belief and scripture.
I do believe Jesus was and always has been, and to put limitations on Him is to strip Him of His Godhood.

I hope Chris responds to your invitation to define what it means to be a Christian. I believe I know what he will say, but I won't say it for him.

Chris?

Hi Mike

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it very much . I do agree, that the NWT is a very poor translation, but I also believe that the NIV is equally a poor translation. I won't get into why at this paticular juncture. And I do believe that the adversary of God will try by any means to deceive. And here is where we all must be careful, myself included.

Thanks
 
I love my KJV, but even that translation has errors and shortcomings. I know of many people who read the KJV and read it differently and see what they want to see with what they read. Some read into the writtings of the translation, to say something totally different than what was intended.

I'm not one who believes the KJV is the only Bible...however it is very close to the oldest manuscripts, as well as the writings of the early church fathers.
Could you be more specific in regard to the "errors and shortcomings" please?

The only way to get the scriptures right is to never allow yourself to introduce a personal translation into the scriptures.
Scripture must be interpreted by scripture exclusively. Let God tell you what is correct.

For example, if I was to read about a beast with seven heads in the book of revelation, I could come up with a myriad of different interpretations...I have heard several different meanings for this scripture alone. However if I want to know the true meaning of the beast with seven heads all I have to do is read the scriptures and the answer is right there...

3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns .

8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

10 They are also seven kings . Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.

11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

12" The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called chosen and faithful followers."

15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages .

16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.

18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

So there it is folks. I don’t have to guess or come up with a “spiritual†meaning because the scriptures interpret themselves. This is the only real way to get the truth of the scriptures.

The example of Revelation that I used can be discerned correctly and entirely by using the same method of letting scripture interpret scripture. It is a complicated plan about what will happen in the end times and during the seven year tribulation, and can be understood through the interpretation of scriptures alone.

If you let others come up with their own non scriptural interpretations things quickly become confusing and when that happens dictators who head cults become “needed†by their followers to give “truth†which cannot otherwise be understood.
You will see this kind of scriptural hijacking method being used by all the cults.
The interpretations are so intricate and confusing that the average follower cannot comprehend them, however, the cult leaders are then able to select a few “chosen disciples†to indoctrinate by having them open themselves up to a form of brainwashing where the victim actually believes they have been given a special gift from the leader and or God, that they can then propagate to the “lost†masses.
J.W. have been extremely effective at these kinds of tactics. If you notice they never come to the door by themselves they always come in groups of two or more.
This way the new members can be watched over and trained on the job so to speak.
I noticed that as soon as I began to expose the N.W.T. translation team, and the fact that none of them were qualified to translate, as a matter of fact none of them could even understand Greek or Hebrew at all save one, who had a very rudimentary and sparse knowledge and could not translate a simple verse of genesis into the original Hebrew in a Scottish courtroom, but as soon as I began to put the facts out, they stopped coming to my door! Now they walk past my house on the way to each of my next door neighbours.
They don’t allow their victims to be around inconvenient truth such as that.

Anyway, I’ve hammered away at this topic enough. It’s not my intention to hurt or disrespect anyone, I do however believe in telling the truth using facts. I love Jesus and He expects me to tell His truth in order that some may hear His voice and turn away from destruction.

God Bless you my friends.

Bronzesnake
 
bunch of posts this morning, I'll only have time to respond to 1 before work. I'll get to more after work.
mjjcb said:
Really, if we ask someone without any faith (an atheist) for their opinion, they from their perspective would say we are all loonies. Faith is complete folly to those who can't open their mind to it.
Of course, they wouldn't believe it, but people who don't have a "horse in the race" could give their interpretation of the story.

I don't believe in the star wars movies... but I can watch them and suggest what the story is supposed to be about, and what points the writers were attempting to make. Many non-muslims read the Qur'an for the stories... without believing it as religious fact. I'm just saying, unless you look at the scriptures TRYING to prove a trinity, I don't believe anyone would see one. Which is why Judaism, Islam, and Mormonism (which are all based on Judeo-christianity to one extent or another) are all monotheist.

You can say when ever the governing body writes a letter addressed as "Christians", but that doesn't make it true. Can you give my post another read? Are you able to see my side of this issue, even if you disagree? From my perspective, a Christian is defined by his acknowledgment that Jesus was and is God Incarnate. To deny this and worship Jehovah, might make you a spiritual person, but it doesn't make you a Christian.
I do see your point. If a person decides to define Christianity by the worship of Christ as almighty God... then yes, you would fall under that definition and I would not. However, I disagree with that definition. I believe "Christians" are the ones that follow the teachings of Christ. If you believe Christ taught that he was equal to his Father... you could still call yourself a Christian (whether you were right or not is between you and God). However, we see Jesus continually giving his Father all the credit... so we're taking him at his word and following him by worshiping like him. I'm sure you can understand that point of view as well. Difference of opinion, I suppose.

Another person might define Christianity by believing that Jesus was a space alian who performed miracles due to advanced technology, and his planet's coming back in 2012!!!! ... in that case, I don't think either of us would qualify per that definition.

Just depends on what a person thinks is a fair definition. I believe "Following Christ to the best of your ability" makes a person Christian. I don't see why anyone should want to define Christianity by "Accepting a specific doctrine that's not really clear from scripture in the first place."

I thought his analogy was interesting. Simplistic, but then again, all analogies are simplistic compared to the Glory of God. The point that it makes (or made to me) was that you have the basic tenets of Christianity that had always been accepted, and Russell came along and re-wrote the foundation of the Church. I can't see how after ~1800 years of understanding His deity, you can reject Jesus as God based on a new initiative and fully adopt that of someone else.

The council of Nicaea was not the founding of Christianity. Christ was. And even then, quite a few Christians were monotheistic. The divinity of Christ was a heated debate... people were on both sides. The difference is that people who believed that Christ was a second God were the majority, therefore the minority was excommunicated or killed. Eventually a few decades later, it was decided that the Father, Son, and Holy spirit were three "persons" in "one God" as opposed to the "three Gods" they had decided on in the previous council. One famous example was Arius. Look up the "Arian Heresy" some time. It was decided as the "heresy" of not changing one's opinion to the decision of that council by believing Jesus to be a God equal with the Father.

The reason the trinity has been so widely accepted for so long ... is because for hundreds of years, if anyone dared question the church's doctrine, they were killed. Another person you may be familiar with is Isaac Newton. There's plenty of information on his opposition to the trinity, among many other historical figures.

The difference is we're out of the dark ages now, so people have the opportunity to read the bible for themselves without being burned at the stake.

... here's one article that briefly discusses it. (didn't read the whole thing... I have to go to work now)
http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2006/03/n ... inity.html
 
Mohrb said:
And yes, JWs do believe in being born again. That's what baptism signifies. You go under the water to put an end and bury your sins and sinful nature. When you rise out of the water, it's to illustrate being born again into a life dedicated to God. All baptized JWs are born again (or have at least claimed to be by being baptized).

Most of Jehovah 's Witnesses are not "born again", not being selected by God as "kings and priests"(Rev 1:6) to form the "kingdom of God."(Rev 5:9,10) In addition, being baptized does not mean that one is "born again", but that ' baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ( for this must have already been done when undergoing baptism), but the request made to God for a good conscience.' (1 Pet 3:21) Hence, at baptism, a person is requesting Jehovah God for a clean conscience, for one must have now "cleaned up" their life so as to please God.(1 Cor 6:9-11)

Furthermore, Jesus succinctly told Nicodemus: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.†(John 3:3) To "see the kingdom of God", it need be recognized that only after an individual's baptism and then found "worthy of the kingdom of God"(2 Thess 1:5) by patterning their life after Jesus perfect example, is one anointed with holy spirit by Jehovah God at his choosing, becoming "heirs of God, but joint heirs with Christ."(Rom 8:17) An individual has to be chosen by God to serve in the official capacity of "kings and priests" and that make up a limited number of 144,000.(Rev 7:4; 14:1) No one can select themselves to go to heaven.

Rather, most will live on the earth as Jesus said, that the "meek; for they shall inherit the earth."(Matt 5:5, King James Bible)
 
Bronzesnake said:
I love my KJV, but even that translation has errors and shortcomings. I know of many people who read the KJV and read it differently and see what they want to see with what they read. Some read into the writtings of the translation, to say something totally different than what was intended.

I'm not one who believes the KJV is the only Bible...however it is very close to the oldest manuscripts, as well as the writings of the early church fathers.
Could you be more specific in regard to the "errors and shortcomings" please?

The only way to get the scriptures right is to never allow yourself to introduce a personal translation into the scriptures.
Scripture must be interpreted by scripture exclusively. Let God tell you what is correct.

For example, if I was to read about a beast with seven heads in the book of revelation, I could come up with a myriad of different interpretations...I have heard several different meanings for this scripture alone. However if I want to know the true meaning of the beast with seven heads all I have to do is read the scriptures and the answer is right there...

3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns .

8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

10 They are also seven kings . Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.

11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

12" The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called chosen and faithful followers."

15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages .

16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.

18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

So there it is folks. I don’t have to guess or come up with a “spiritual†meaning because the scriptures interpret themselves. This is the only real way to get the truth of the scriptures.

The example of Revelation that I used can be discerned correctly and entirely by using the same method of letting scripture interpret scripture. It is a complicated plan about what will happen in the end times and during the seven year tribulation, and can be understood through the interpretation of scriptures alone.

If you let others come up with their own non scriptural interpretations things quickly become confusing and when that happens dictators who head cults become “needed†by their followers to give “truth†which cannot otherwise be understood.
You will see this kind of scriptural hijacking method being used by all the cults.
The interpretations are so intricate and confusing that the average follower cannot comprehend them, however, the cult leaders are then able to select a few “chosen disciples†to indoctrinate by having them open themselves up to a form of brainwashing where the victim actually believes they have been given a special gift from the leader and or God, that they can then propagate to the “lost†masses.
J.W. have been extremely effective at these kinds of tactics. If you notice they never come to the door by themselves they always come in groups of two or more.
This way the new members can be watched over and trained on the job so to speak.
I noticed that as soon as I began to expose the N.W.T. translation team, and the fact that none of them were qualified to translate, as a matter of fact none of them could even understand Greek or Hebrew at all save one, who had a very rudimentary and sparse knowledge and could not translate a simple verse of genesis into the original Hebrew in a Scottish courtroom, but as soon as I began to put the facts out, they stopped coming to my door! Now they walk past my house on the way to each of my next door neighbours.
They don’t allow their victims to be around inconvenient truth such as that.

Anyway, I’ve hammered away at this topic enough. It’s not my intention to hurt or disrespect anyone, I do however believe in telling the truth using facts. I love Jesus and He expects me to tell His truth in order that some may hear His voice and turn away from destruction.

God Bless you my friends.

Bronzesnake


HI Bronzesnake

If you have time, this is a thread I started, that you could look at. I warn you, its long.

Erroneous additons to the Word of God !

You can find it in the Apologetics and Theology pg 4. :yes
 
Mohrb said:
Free said:
There are several examples of the use of firstborn not referring to a son or even a person for that matter (see Ex 4:22; Jer 31:9). And with that in mind, the idea of firstborn can mean preeminence without any context of "one being born," at all. This is further supported by what the passage then goes on to say: that Jesus created all things--meaning every single thing that has ever been created (John 1:3).
Jeremiah 31:9 is most definitely talking about a son. However, you're right about Exodus 4:22. That is a good point.
My point with Jer 31:9 is that Ephraim is not God's literal son.

Mohrb said:
However, I specified that "firstborn" wasn't really the point of "Firstborn of creation." Being the "preeminent of creation" still makes one part of "creation."
Not at all. It is the same as saying preeminent over creation." This is especially apparent when the verses following state that Jesus made everything that has been made.

Mohrb said:
I'm sure you can also justify how a "Son" can be the same age as his "Father" (that they're not really "Father and Son" ... just play those roles)... however, Jesus isn't just "in the role of a son"... he's specifically God's "Begotten" son.
I've already addressed the use of "begotten" in a previous post. As I have asked many people in these forums, look at every instance where Jesus is referred to as the Son of God and tell me what you notice. It becomes clear that Jesus' being called the Son of God is certainly not on the same level that we refer to someone as the son of their father. Indeed, the Jews even called it blasphemous since he was making himself equal to God.

Did you want to address the my post at the top of page 13?
 
Mysteryman said:
If you have time, this is a thread I started, that you could look at. I warn you, its long.

Erroneous additons to the Word of God !
And it's almost all unsupported opinion. :gah
 
When Greek is translated into English, the scholar decides to use or not to use the article "a" in the translation. In other words, it's an "interpretation" into English. That means my assertion that the defining article "a" should be used is valid. This same problem also exist in the translation of Hebrew into English, then that explains a multitude of problems.

Normally "a" is an indefinite article, unless proceeded by a pronoun.

The pronoun "I or you" 1. the nominative singular pronoun, used by a speaker in referring to himself or herself.

As for what is being said here, it is in regards to a defective sentence without the article "a" defining a particular person. Yahshua is speaking of gods in the plural. And this is what he said of himself: 36. what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

The subject is about gods "plural" followed by verse 36 about a god "singular."

Yahshua is that god whom Yahwah has set apart as His very own, from all of the other gods. John 10
24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are (the Christ) "singular", tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." (As in unity)
 
mdo757 said:
When Greek is translated into English, the scholar decides to use or not to use the article "a" in the translation. In other words, it's an "interpretation" into English. That means my assertion that the defining article "a" should be used is valid. This same problem also exist in the translation of Hebrew into English, then that explains a multitude of problems.

Normally "a" is an indefinite article, unless proceeded by a pronoun.

The pronoun "I or you" 1. the nominative singular pronoun, used by a speaker in referring to himself or herself.

As for what is being said here, it is in regards to a defective sentence without the article "a" defining a particular person. Yahshua is speaking of gods in the plural. And this is what he said of himself: 36. what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

The subject is about gods "plural" followed by verse 36 about a god "singular."

Yahshua is that god whom Yahwah has set apart as His very own, from all of the other gods. John 10
24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are (the Christ) "singular", tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." (As in unity)
What are trying to say? It seems as though you've copied this from somewhere else (if you have you must post the source).
 
mdo757 said:
Free said:
What are you trying to say? It seems as though you've copied this from somewhere else.
I have spoken about this same subject before, here, and other forums.
Okay. Can you clarify what you mean> What are you trying to say and how is it relevant to this discussion?
 
Free said:
mdo757 said:
Free said:
What are you trying to say? It seems as though you've copied this from somewhere else.
I have spoken about this same subject before, here, and other forums.
Okay. Can you clarify what you mean> What are you trying to say and how is it relevant to this discussion?
It seemed to me that it was being said: Unless you believe in Trinitarianism you can not be a Christian.
 

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