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I find this verse insulting to God

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sk0rpi0n

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1 Corinthians 1:25

I dont even feel like quoting it here.

My question is...
Does anybody really believe that there is even such a thing as the first five words of that verse???
 
I Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

You'll need to have the Lord explain it to you, its the something like this verse from......

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


turnorburn
 
Honestly, if you can't accept that God is bigger than you and smarter than you...then you've...got...a problem. :lol
 
justvisiting said:
Honestly, if you can't accept that God is bigger than you and smarter than you...then you've...got...a problem. :lol


Of course I do accept that God is infinitely bigger and smarter than me.

I just have a problem with Paul using the phrase "the foolishness of God".

My question to YOU is.... do you believe that such a thing exists?

My simple question in the OP can be answered as 'yes' or 'no'.

I'd say "NO". What is your answer?
 
sk0rpi0n said:
1 Corinthians 1:25

I dont even feel like quoting it here.

My question is...
Does anybody really believe that there is even such a thing as the first five words of that verse???

I totally agree, there is no such thing as the foolishness of God, some people would rather protect Paul thinking everything he says has to somehow be true because it's written.
 
bodhitharta said:
sk0rpi0n said:
1 Corinthians 1:25

I dont even feel like quoting it here.

My question is...
Does anybody really believe that there is even such a thing as the first five words of that verse???

I totally agree, there is no such thing as the foolishness of God, some people would rather protect Paul thinking everything he says has to somehow be true because it's written.

Well, in Paul's defense he's speaking of God's 'foolishness' and 'weakness' from the perspective of non-believers. He's saying that what men of the world think is 'foolish' (i.e., the gospel) is unfathomably beyond their natural comprehension. (1Cor ii.14; cf. Rm xi.33)


Finis,
Eric
 
sk0rpi0n said:
1 Corinthians 1:25

I dont even feel like quoting it here.

My question is...
Does anybody really believe that there is even such a thing as the first five words of that verse???
I think your missing the meaning of the verse.
Here is the verse: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Here is the meaning: Though the gospel esteemed by men is foolishness, and weakness, is nevertheless wisdom and power.
Namely because, it is God's whose least things (if man may say so), do infinitely exceed the greatest of mens.

Look at it in the context of other verses:
1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

1 Cor2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

This is no insult toward God, if anything it is towards men.
 
wavy said:
bodhitharta said:
sk0rpi0n said:
1 Corinthians 1:25

I dont even feel like quoting it here.

My question is...
Does anybody really believe that there is even such a thing as the first five words of that verse???

I totally agree, there is no such thing as the foolishness of God, some people would rather protect Paul thinking everything he says has to somehow be true because it's written.

Well, in Paul's defense he's speaking of God's 'foolishness' and 'weakness' from the perspective of non-believers. He's saying that what men of the world think is 'foolish' (i.e., the gospel) is unfathomably beyond their natural comprehension. (1Cor ii.14; cf. Rm xi.33)


Finis,
Eric
Good point.
 
wavy said:
bodhitharta said:
sk0rpi0n said:
1 Corinthians 1:25

I dont even feel like quoting it here.

My question is...
Does anybody really believe that there is even such a thing as the first five words of that verse???

I totally agree, there is no such thing as the foolishness of God, some people would rather protect Paul thinking everything he says has to somehow be true because it's written.

Well, in Paul's defense he's speaking of God's 'foolishness' and 'weakness' from the perspective of non-believers. He's saying that what men of the world think is 'foolish' (i.e., the gospel) is unfathomably beyond their natural comprehension. (1Cor ii.14; cf. Rm xi.33)


Finis,
Eric

That's not quite right.


1 Corinthians 1 (King James Version)

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

It is clear that Paul is saying that there are "Foolish" things of God and "weaknesses" of God, so there really is no way to defend the actual statement other than to say you believe his intentions were good despite the comment. The verse itself is insulting.
 
bodhitharta said:
That's not quite right.


1 Corinthians 1 (King James Version)

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

It is clear that Paul is saying that there are "Foolish" things of God and "weaknesses" of God, so there really is no way to defend the actual statement other than to say you believe his intentions were good despite the comment. The verse itself is insulting.

It's quite right, and all your response does is beg the answer again. You merely pointed out a second time references to Paul speaking of God's 'foolishness'...already answered by Elf and myself by our explaining that Paul is speaking from the perspective of natural men/non-believers. (like me :biggrin )

This is the charitable way to understand his arguments. No devout Jew like Paul would ever seriously entertain the notion that anything about God was 'weak' or 'foolish'.


Finis,
Eric
 
.

Firstly, You must understand the style of language that was being used in the day of those who translated the bible. If you are reading old english translations it is crucial that you understand the emphasis and style of the day.

Secondly, Context is important. Even though in some cases, many verses in the bible stand well enough on their own without needing some of the surrounding verses to entail an indepth explaination, some do. And so, you must then take into consideration those surrounding verses to gain a better perspective on the issue or topic on which the author is speaking.


Hope this helps.
----------------------

EXCERPT:

... Verse 25. Because the foolishness of God. That which God appoints, requires, commands, does, etc., which appears to men to be foolish. The passage is not to be understood as affirming that it is really foolish or unwise; but that it appears so to men. Perhaps the apostle here refers to those parts of the Divine administration where the wisdom of the plan is not seen; or where the reason of what God does is concealed.

Is wiser than men. Is better adapted to accomplish important ends, and more certainly effectual, than the schemes of human wisdom. This is especially true of the plan of salvation--a plan apparently foolish to the mass of men, yet indubitably accomplishing more for the renewing of men, and for their purity and happiness, than all the schemes of human contrivance. They have accomplished nothing towards men's salvation; this accomplishes everything. They have always failed; this never falls.

The weakness of God. There is really no weakness in God, any more than there is folly. This must mean, therefore, the things of his appointment which appear weak and insufficient to accomplish the end. Such are these facts--that God should seek to save the world by Jesus of Nazareth, who was supposed unable to save himself, Matthew 27:40-43; and that he should expect to save men by the gospel, by its being preached by men who were without learning, eloquence, wealth, fame, or power. The instruments were feeble; and men judged that this was owing to the weakness or want of power in the God who appointed them.

Is stronger than men. Is able to accomplish more than the utmost might of man. The feeblest agency that God puts forth-- so feeble as to be esteemed weakness--is able to effect more than the utmost might of man. The apostle here refers particularly to the work of redemption; but it is true everywhere. We may remark,

(1.) that God often effects his mightiest plans by that which seems to men to be weak, and even foolish. The most mighty revolutions arise often from the slightest causes; his most vast operations are often connected with very feeble means. The revolution of empires; the mighty effects of the pestilence; the advancement in the sciences and arts; and the operations of nature, are often brought about by means apparently as little fitted to accomplish the work as those which are employed in the plan of redemption.

(2.) God is great. If his feeblest powers, put forth, surpass the mightiest powers of man, how great must be his might! If the powers of man, who rears works of art, who levels mountains and elevates vales--if the power which reared the pyramids be as nothing when compared with the feeblest putting forth of Divine power, how mighty must be his arm! How vast that strength which made, and which upholds the rolling worlds! How safe are his people in his hand! And how easy for him to crush all his foes in death!

Verse 26. For ye see your calling. You know the general character and condition of those who are Christians among you, that they have not been generally taken from the wise, the rich, and the learned, but from humble life. The design of the apostle here is to show that the gospel did not depend for its Success on human wisdom. His argument is, that in fact those who were blessed by it had not been of the elevated ranks of life mainly, but that God had shown his Power.by choosing those who were ignorant, and vicious, and abandoned, and by reforming and purifying their lives The verb "ye see," \~blepete\~ is ambiguous, and may be either in the indicative mood, as our translators have rendered it, "ye do see; you are well apprized of it, and know it;" or it may be in the imperative, "see, contemplate your condition ;" but the sense is substantially the same. Your calling, \~thn klhsin\~, means "those who are called," 1 Corinthians 1:9; as "the circumcision" means those who are circumcised, Romans 3:30. The sense is, "Look upon the condition of those who are Christians."

Not many wise men. Not many who are regarded as wise; or who are ranked with philosophers. This supposes that there were some of that description, though the mass of Christians were then, as now, from more humble ranks of life. That there were some of high rank and wealth at Corinth who became Christians, is well known. ...

The above excerpt was taken from a 51 page commentary entitled:

Barnes Notes on New Testament
1 Corinthians - Chapter 1


To read the whole commentary
click on this link:
THE FIRST EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE CORINTHIANS

.
 
Relic said:
.

EXCERPT:

... Verse 25. Because the foolishness of God. That which God appoints, requires, commands, does, etc., which appears to men to be foolish. The passage is not to be understood as affirming that it is really foolish or unwise; but that it appears so to men. Perhaps the apostle here refers to those parts of the Divine administration where the wisdom of the plan is not seen; or where the reason of what God does is concealed.

I appreciate your detailed answer, but I beg to differ.

You will agree with me that there was a way to write "that which God appoints, requires, commands, does, etc., which appears to men to be foolish" in the literary style of the time.

Paul is not talking about peoples perception. But he compares (his idea) of the "foolishness" of God being superior to human wisdom in comparison. Much like someone saying "the worst player on Team A is better than the best player on Team B".

Nobody reads it as "the worst player on Team A, appears to be that way to Team B".
 
sk0rpi0n said:
I appreciate your detailed answer, but I beg to differ.

You will agree with me that there was a way to write "that which God appoints, requires, commands, does, etc., which appears to men to be foolish" in the literary style of the time.

Paul is not talking about peoples perception. But he compares (his idea) of the "foolishness" of God being superior to human wisdom in comparison. Much like someone saying "the worst player on Team A is better than the best player on Team B".

Nobody reads it as "the worst player on Team A, appears to be that way to Team B".

Fine, ignore the context and the obvious rhetoric. Not my problem. But he explicitly states in i.18 and ii.14, et al, that the gospel is foolishness to non-believers. So why should anyone be convinced of your uncharitable and isolated reading of one solitary verse when there is a perfectly plausible, charitable, and evident way to interpret it in its rhetorical context?

Finis,
Eric
 
.

wavy,

I agree.


Sk0rpi0n is standing alone on this one. I've never seen anyone accuse God of being foolish except those who don't believe, or those who misinterpret scripture.

The Character of God does not include God being foolish.

Sk0rpi0n.... You need to study the Attributes of God. None of them give any statement of GOD being foolish. Paul did not intend for the reader to see God as truly being foolish. He was using an example of IF God were THEN even that would still usurp the wisdom of man.



ScOrp, the Koran says to cut the head off of the infidel... Do you take that literally or figuratively? Figuratively meaning; to cut off the mind-set... NOT the literal head of the person.

Paul was using a figure of speech FOR setting an example of how small minded men are compared to God's wisdom.

.
 
wavy said:
sk0rpi0n said:
I appreciate your detailed answer, but I beg to differ.

You will agree with me that there was a way to write "that which God appoints, requires, commands, does, etc., which appears to men to be foolish" in the literary style of the time.

Paul is not talking about peoples perception. But he compares (his idea) of the "foolishness" of God being superior to human wisdom in comparison. Much like someone saying "the worst player on Team A is better than the best player on Team B".

Nobody reads it as "the worst player on Team A, appears to be that way to Team B".

Fine, ignore the context and the obvious rhetoric. Not my problem. But he explicitly states in i.18 and ii.14, et al, that the gospel is foolishness to non-believers. So why should anyone be convinced of your uncharitable and isolated reading of one solitary verse when there is a perfectly plausible, charitable, and evident way to interpret it in its rhetorical context?

Finis,
Eric


1 Corinthians 18:25 is a classic case of running cherry picked verses through the whole "what he actually meant was...." routine.

Imagine if Paul never wrote that. And imagine someone from the 'wrong' sect or religon saying the same words of 1 Corinthians 18:25, about the God of Abraham.
I wonder if the people here would accept the commentary from studylight.org that rationalizes the verse as meaning "that it appears so to men"


The concept of the gospel being foolishness to non-believers has nothing to do with the idea of "foolishness of God".
 
sk0rpi0n said:
1 Corinthians 18:25 is a classic case of running cherry picked verses through the whole "what he actually meant was...." routine.

'What he actually meant' is evident from the context and to any intellectual honesty and charitable individual this is obvious. Do you seriously think Paul or any Jew thought there was anything foolish about God?

The concept of the gospel being foolishness to non-believers has nothing to do with the idea of "foolishness of God".

The gospel is the 'foolishness of God' in context. Did you read the chapter (and thus verses 18 & 26-9) before you came here blabbering on about what's apparently only rhetoric to any one with even half-open eyes? (cf. the similar rhetoric in 2Cor xi.19)

Unless you come back with a real reason for why Paul speaking rhetorically from the perspective of the non-believing, as he expressly makes clear, is an unacceptable interpretation, then I'm done responding. Your obstinacy will speak for itself.


Finis,
Eric
 
Relic said:
.
Sk0rpi0n is standing alone on this one. I've never seen anyone accuse God of being foolish except those who don't believe, or those who misinterpret scripture.

The Character of God does not include God being foolish.

Sk0rpi0n.... You need to study the Attributes of God. None of them give any statement of GOD being foolish. Paul did not intend for the reader to see God as truly being foolish. He was using an example of IF God were THEN even that would still usurp the wisdom of man.


I know Paul did not intend for the reader as God being foolish. I didnt even imply that. I know what the verse was talking about. Just that the phrase "foolishness of God" strikes me as Paul invoking God in vain.


Relic said:
.
ScOrp, the Koran says to cut the head off of the infidel... Do you take that literally or figuratively? Figuratively meaning; to cut [off the mind-set... NOT the literal head of the person.

Paul was using a figure of speech FOR setting an example of how small minded men are compared to God's wisdom.
.

A bit off topic, but Ill address your point, anyway.

The verses about cutting the heads of infidels were in context to times of war. So I believe its literal, and not figurative. (Captured enemies were given a chance to change their mindset as well, but thats another topic)

Much like how when Batman says "I shall go and kick the butts of criminals in Gotham city", he will literally mean it. It is not meant as "I shall talk them into giving up crime".


I fully understand what Paul meant...and while he didnt mean to call God foolish, he was being rather loose with words.

While I do not agree with Pauls teaching, I will say this...I am not trying to portay myself as righteous and holy by pointing fingers at Paul. I myself have in the past been "loose with words" regarding God. I have taken Gods name in vain many times out of carelessness, and I am mindful of my shortcomings.
 
"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." -1Corinthians 1:25


God is not foolish.

God is not weak.

Now...having stated this I wish to attempt to shed some light on this subject.

The bible is replete with what are called literary devices; or, figures of speech, if you will. The Greek language is perhaps the most expressive language which has ever been conceived by man and, as such, words in the Greek language have "in toto" perhaps more nuance than those of any other language. The Hebrew language also is inculcated with the usage of similar complex literary devices making these two languages two of the most expressive of all languages. The writers of both the Old and the New Testaments employed these literary devices, nuances, and figures of speech possibly with greater agility and deftness than any other writers either before or since them as they wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit of God.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works." -2Timothy 3:16,17



One of these figures of speech is called "Metonymy." Metonymy is a figure by which one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation.

There are four types of Metonymy:
Metonymy of the Cause
Metonymy of the Effect
Metonymy of the Subject
Metonymy of the Adjunct.

The device employed in this case is the last: Metonymy of the Adjunct.

Of this subsection there are seven more subsections. Among these seven subsections we find the one which applies to 1 Corinthians 1:25. This is when "the appearance of a thing is substituted for its nature; or, the opinion about it for the thing itself."





The application of this device here then is the opinion of men who, without the spirit of God, mistakenly hold the opinion that the things of God are foolishness and weakness. This is something with which the apostle Paul was intimately familiar having experienced it firsthand for many, many years.


There is a second figure of speech which is also employed here. It is called "Catachresis." This idiom (An expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up) is defined as: One word changed for another only remotely connected with it. It is taken from the Greek words kata against and chreesthai to use. Hence, Catachresis means "misuse." It is intentional misuse for the sake of making and emphasizing a point. Catachresis is when a word is changed for another, and this against or contrary to the ordinary usage and meaning of it. The Latins called this term Abusio -abuse.

Catachresis is of three kinds:

Of two words, where the meanings are remotely akin.

Of two words, where the meanings are different.

Of one word, where the Greek receives its real meaning by permutation form the Hebrew, or some other language, or foreign usage.

1 Corinthians 1:25 falls under the second type of Catachresis. Since it is incongruous to speak of "foolishness" or "weakness" with respect to God we are arrested by the use of this phraseology: "weakness of God" and "foolishness of God."


A third figure of speech ever so wisely utilized by the apostle in this particular verse is one which I perceive will most likely resonate with those who struggle with accepting this verse upon which we are focusing here is the one the Greeks referred to as Oxymoron.

Oxymoron is adumbrated as "a wise saying that seems foolish". It is a smart saying, which unites words whose literal meanings appear to be inharmonious, if not contradictory; but they are so cleverly and wisely joined together as to enhance the real sense of the words. Oxymoron is used in the book of Job where we read "And stripped the naked of their clothing," and in Isaiah where we find "Thy darkness shall be as the noon-day," or in Jeremiah which says, "He shall be buried with the burial of an ass." The last example meaning in reality that he will not be buried at all; he shall have an unburied burial!

Even Jesus Christ himself used this literary technique when, in the sermon on the mount, he said, "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness." How can light be darkness? The Oxymoron arises from the Metonymy by which "light" is put for the human wisdom of the natural man, which is darkness.


I humbly wish to remind everyone once again that "all scripture is inspired by God" and that "...prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" according to Peter. It is also apparent when we study the scriptures that Paul would have preferred his own tongue to be cut out than to have spoken irreverently or incorrectly about the great and mighty God whom he so consummately loved.


I would like to commend all of you who take offence at anything which appears to be an insult to Jehovah God. It is easy to see your heart is in the right place. Sometimes, however, what is intended by holy scripture is not so easy to understand and we can all use some help sometimes with our understanding.

I most sincerely hope this helps.




May the love and peace of Jesus Christ be yours,
Paul W.
 

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