If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[llama]

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ask yourself, is a gift free? Who pays for a gift the giver or the receiver? Who had to pay for our eternal life? How did it get paid? How many times do you have to receive eternal life as a free gift for it to last forever? If you believe you can lose your salvation, you will end up working and putting your effort into doing, or not doing that you think makes you lose your salvation, like committing big sins of adultery, or even worse. When you are done living your life, you die and you meet God, you are telling God he is in DEBT and owes it to you to save you from burning in hell, because of SOMETHING YOU DID here on earth to try to keep your salvation. Does the bible says God owes us anything? Is there a single promise in the bible for partial faith in Christ, and partially in your good works, or giving up sins to save you? The promise is for those who ONLY believe ON Jesus for salvation. Lets take a look at what Jesus is going to say to the best christians out there, who failed to trust ON Jesus olny, but relied in their good works to save them: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Notice, it doesn't say I used to know you and you lost your salvation because of a big sin, he NEVER knew you, that means you were never born again(saved) to begin with. Lets look at a verse where the bible clearly states the believer CAN KNOW he has everlasting life, which means he can be 100% sure he is saved, and on his way to heaven. 1 john 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." If you don't believe you have eternal life this moment, and that you are saved forever, and must do something to keep your salvation, you are making God a liar, because he said we can know, I will throw a few more verses in to show that salvation is by faith only!
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Ephesians 2:8,9 we are told, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Now, lets look at what God thinks of your self effort toward getting into heaven by your good works, or giving up sins!
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[dadof10]

The gift of eternal life is free. We can do nothing to earn it. We must, however accept it, which is a free will act. To put conditions on the acceptance of a gift is not the same thing as earning it. Case in point: Do you have to "accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" in order to be saved? If so, is this "acceptance" earning salvation, or has God simply put a condition on this free gift?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

There's a few other considerations though. It's said that if a person turns away from Jesus, then they were never really saved. This can be looked at in the sense of sinning, but it can also be looked at in the situtions where a Christian turns away from Christianity. After all if a person accepts Jesus earlier in their life, but rejects him later on, we're they saved out of their belief before, and still saved after they rejected Jesus? Or were they never saved to begin with. As far as we can all see,who is going to be saved and who isn't, isn't something we have the best position to tell.

 

[Drew]

Is there a single promise in the bible for partial faith in Christ, and partially in your good works, or giving up sins to save you? The promise is for those who ONLY believe ON Jesus for salvation.

Well, whether or not they can be correctly described as "our" good works, a certain chap named Paul certainly believes that salvation is given according to what we have done:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]

...and

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because ofhis Spirit who lives in you.12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:11-13, NASB]

The irony is that while Paul really means exactly what he says in both these places (and in others), he also believes that it is only through trusting in Jesus that we can "persist in doing good" or "put to death the misdeeds of the body".

 

[Drew]

Lets take a look at what Jesus is going to say to the best christians out there, who failed to trust ON Jesus olny, but relied in their good works to save them: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

How, and please provide a Biblically grounded answer do you know that Jesus is addressing true Christians ("Best Christians", as you put it) here?

This text does not rule out the possibility that there are indeed people that Jesus "knows" - that is, are "true believers" - and yet who will also be awarded eternal life based on what they do. If that were not the case - if some people are not awarded eternal life based on their deeds - why would Paul write these particular words?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]

You cannot simply assume that just because some people claim to have done good works, and are denied salvation, that this means that there aren't who actually do good works, and are granted salvation on that basis, as Paul clearly declares will be the case.

In fact, Jesus tells us that your argument is flawed. How? He clearly declares that the people he "does not know" - and sends away - also work iniquity.

He is not talking about those who actually do good.

 

[Drew]

1 john 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." If you don't believe you have eternal life this moment, and that you are saved forever, and must do something to keep your salvation, you are making God a liar, because he said we can know, I will throw a few more verses in to show that salvation is by faith only!

There are is another possibility that allows us to respect this statement by Paul:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]

...and that possibility is simply this: the one who believes on the name of the Son of God is given the Spirit (am I wrong about this?) and the Spirit does indeed transform us to become more like Jesus (will you dispute this?). Therefore, by believing in Jesus we are on the track to becoming the kind of person who most assuredly will "persist in doing good".

And what does the author of Romans say about such persons?

Nothing less than they will be awarded eternal life.

 

[Brother Mike]

There's a few other considerations though. It's said that if a person turns away from Jesus, then they were never really saved. This can be looked at in the sense of sinning, but it can also be looked at in the situtions where a Christian turns away from Christianity. After all if a person accepts Jesus earlier in their life, but rejects him later on, we're they saved out of their belief before, and still saved after they rejected Jesus? Or were they never saved to begin with. As far as we can all see,who is going to be saved and who isn't, isn't something we have the best position to tell.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:10-11)

What happens if some Brethern become slothful, and do not make their calling and election sure. Half the body of Christ don't even consider they have a plan and calling.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

what if they don't overcome?

Another OSAS thread and it's getting old that we actually focus on this nonsense. Is anyone really looking to not stay saved? Who are the threads for?

Mike

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:10-11)

What happens if some Brethern become slothful, and do not make their calling and election sure. Half the body of Christ don't even consider they have a plan and calling.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

what if they don't overcome?

Another OSAS thread and it's getting old that we actually focus on this nonsense. Is anyone really looking to not stay saved? Who are the threads for?

Mike

What does OSAS stand for? I didn't find it in the glossary.

My point was more that the circumstances for knowing who's saved and who isn't, isn't so cut and dry. I've worked with someone who was Christian in his childhood, but later turned away, descides it wasn't real. If a person is once saved always saved then for that indivual either he never was saved to begin with, or even in unbelief he's still saved because of his belief early in life.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Well, whether or not they can be correctly described as "our" good works, a certain chap named Paul certainly believes that salvation is given according to what we have done:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NASB]

...and

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because ofhis Spirit who lives in you.12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:11-13, NASB]

The irony is that while Paul really means exactly what he says in both these places (and in others), he also believes that it is only through trusting in Jesus that we can "persist in doing good" or "put to death the misdeeds of the body".

Look at Mathew 5:19-20 . In the New Living Translation the verses read, "19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"

I think a point that is not looked at is being in heaven, verses having treasure in heaven, or being great in heaven. Our salvation verses our treasures in heaven sound to me to be completely different aspects.

 

[Obadiah]

(Post removed. A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will throw a few more verses in to show that salvation is by faith only!

No.
JUSTIFICATION is by faith all by itself:
"it is with your heart that you believe and are justified" (Romans 10:10 NIV)

If that justification doesn't produce the works that Christ will use to measure faith then you were either never justified in the first place, or you lost that declaration of righteousness through contempt or neglect for the free gift.

Holy works is how we know that we have the righteousness of Christ (1 John 3:7 NIV). That's why works are the measure of faith Christ will use to either condemn us or save us on the Day of Wrath.

 

[Drew]

No.
JUSTIFICATION is by faith all by itself:
"it is with your heart that you believe and are justified" (Romans 10:10 NIV)

If that justification doesn't produce the works that Christ will use to measure faith then you were either never justified in the first place, or you lost that declaration of righteousness through contempt or neglect for the free gift.

Holy works is how we know that we have the righteousness of Christ (1 John 3:7 NIV). That's why works are the measure of faith Christ will use to either condemn us or save us on the Day of Wrath.

I happen to agree with your assertion that "works are the measure of faith Christ will use to either condemn us or save us on the Day of Wrath".

And I certainly agree that there is a distinction between the concepts of justification and salvation; many Christians use these terms interchangeably.

I have a lot of respect for NT Wright and he writes this about the concept of justification:

‘Justification’ is thus the declaration of God, the just judge, that someone is (a) in the right, that their sins are forgiven, and (b) a true member of the covenant family, the people belonging to Abraham. That is how the word works in Paul’s writings. It doesn’t describe how people get in to God’s forgiven family; it declares that they are in. That may seem a small distinction, but in understanding what Paul is saying it is vital.

 

[Drew]

After reading so many of these threads that go on endlessly and never come to a conclusion, I think I've come to a conclusion! I think maybe it's none of our business. I'm thinking maybe God doesn't want us to know who is saved and who isn't because that's between Him and the individual person, not between that person and us. I think what God wants us to make our business is OUR relationship with Him and to make sure we each individually are right with Him through the sacrifice of Jesus and the acceptance of that payment and forgiveness for our sins. We need to focus on what we are doing in service to the Lord, not on what our neighbor is doing. When we try to figure out something that isn't our business, perhaps this is why this subject never gets settled.

Well, I certainly agree with the "spirit" of your post, but I think things are a little more complex. For one, when you write...

I think what God wants us to make our business is OUR relationship with Him and to make sure we each individually are right with Him through the sacrifice of Jesus and the acceptance of that payment and forgiveness for our sins

...you are, I believe, disclosing your view on what it means to be "right with God" and by implications at least, your view on what it means to be saved.

But, as you are no doubt painfully aware, there is a lot of disagreement over basic matters like salvation. People like me, Butch5, and JethroBodine (love that name) think that "good deeds matter" with respect to salvation even if we have might not line up with each other 100% on some of the details. Others, including you I suspect (but I only suspect that I know what you believe - you can set me straight if I get you wrong), think that salvation is conferred by something like "faith acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice that takes away our sin".

These differences are important - they are arguably literally matters of life and death. Let me illustrate by example. On another board, I challenged a poster who was attacking some political figure using the kind of distorting, nasty, hurtful, and defamatory rhetoric that sadly characterizes how "politics gets done". I asked this poster if he thought that Jesus would approve of the approach he was taking. The poster replied with something along the lines of "It doesn't matter - on the day of judgment God will not see my unrighteousness, He will see Jesus' righteousness imputed to me". The implication, of course, was that it didn't really matter that he (the poster) was sinning.

Now, obviously, I am not suggesting that you or anyone else here would take the same line. But I think this account illustrates that getting the theology right really does matter; even seemingly esoteric items of doctrine influence how we live in the real world.

 

[Deborah13]

And I certainly agree that there is a distinction between the concepts of justification and salvation; many Christians use these terms interchangeably.

I have a lot of respect for NT Wright and he writes this about the concept of justification:

‘Justification’ is thus the declaration of God, the just judge, that someone is (a) in the right, that their sins are forgiven, and (b) a true member of the covenant family, the people belonging to Abraham. That is how the word works in Paul’s writings. It doesn’t describe how people get in to God’s forgiven family; it declares that they are in. That may seem a small distinction, but in understanding what Paul is saying it is vital.

Hi Drew,
Your quote from NT Wright is hard for me to understand because it is intended to show the "small distinction" between justification vs salvation. Would you please quote his description of salvation so I can make the distinction. Thanks.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew,
Your quote from NT Wright is hard for me to understand because it is intended to show the "small distinction" between justification vs salvation. Would you please quote his description of salvation so I can make the distinction. Thanks.

Thanks for reading my post and for your question. The good news is that while greater minds than mine and presumably yours have battled over what Paul means by "justification", I believe there is far less controversy over the meaning of "salvation". While I cannot find a direct quote from him, I am quite sure NT Wright believes salvation means "rescue from God's righteous wrath" or something along those lines. So "salvation" does indeed denote, among things perhaps, "being given eternal life". I believe Wright would argue that justification leads to salvation - salvation is one of the logical outworkings of being declared "justified".

 

[Deborah13]

So "salvation" does indeed denote, among things perhaps, "being given eternal life". I believe Wright would argue that justification leads to salvation - salvation is one of the logical outworkings of being declared "justified".

Indeed, I would say that salvation is the gift that we receive when we are justified by God.

 

[Brother Mike]

Look at Mathew 5:19-20 . In the New Living Translation the verses read, "19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"

I think a point that is not looked at is being in heaven, verses having treasure in heaven, or being great in heaven. Our salvation verses our treasures in heaven sound to me to be completely different aspects.

There are rewards in the end, not everyone will get to run part of a city, some will have no or little reward at all based on them doing what God called them to do here on earth.

Treasure in Heaven is just that, treasure we call on now, which is not corrupted by the World system.

Matt 5:19 can be read a bit different if we read it as they would have heard it. You have right standing with God, if you don't ignore the commandments and teach others the same. If you ignore the Word and not a doer of the word, then you will be counted least in ruling in/with Heaven. In other words, you won't have as much favour as someone that obey's God and does what He says, very little or no prayer power, little or no favour.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

So, since our righteousness is based on what Jesus did, then Jesus talking about keeping the Word and ruling in Heaven gives you right Standing with God, for God honours who honours him. You can be counted righteous as in saved by the blood, not judged, but that is no indication your in the Rule of God (Kingdom of God) or that you have much sway before the Father.

 

[llama]

The gift of eternal life is free. We can do nothing to earn it. We must, however accept it, which is a free will act. To put conditions on the acceptance of a gift is not the same thing as earning it. Case in point: Do you have to "accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" in order to be saved? If so, is this "acceptance" earning salvation, or has God simply put a condition on this free gift?

God has put a condition on this free gift, of our believing Jesus paid it all, and that we won't in the future try to earn heaven by works, and to correct you, you have to accept Jesus as savior, he already is Lord!

 

[llama]

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:10-11)

What happens if some Brethern become slothful, and do not make their calling and election sure. Half the body of Christ don't even consider they have a plan and calling.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

what if they don't overcome?

Another OSAS thread and it's getting old that we actually focus on this nonsense. Is anyone really looking to not stay saved? Who are the threads for?

Mike

"5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesusis the Son of God? 6This is he that came by water and blood, evenJesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." overcoming is believing that Jesus is the son of God, it doesn't say overcoming sin, that's a different crown, this one is probably universal

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, I certainly agree with the "spirit" of your post, but I think things are a little more complex. For one, when you write...



...you are, I believe, disclosing your view on what it means to be "right with God" and by implications at least, your view on what it means to be saved.

But, as you are no doubt painfully aware, there is a lot of disagreement over basic matters like salvation. People like me, Butch5, and JethroBodine (love that name) think that "good deeds matter" with respect to salvation even if we have might not line up with each other 100% on some of the details. Others, including you I suspect (but I only suspect that I know what you believe - you can set me straight if I get you wrong), think that salvation is conferred by something like "faith acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice that takes away our sin".

These differences are important - they are arguably literally matters of life and death. Let me illustrate by example. On another board, I challenged a poster who was attacking some political figure using the kind of distorting, nasty, hurtful, and defamatory rhetoric that sadly characterizes how "politics gets done". I asked this poster if he thought that Jesus would approve of the approach he was taking. The poster replied with something along the lines of "It doesn't matter - on the day of judgment God will not see my unrighteousness, He will see Jesus' righteousness imputed to me". The implication, of course, was that it didn't really matter that he (the poster) was sinning.

Now, obviously, I am not suggesting that you or anyone else here would take the same line. But I think this account illustrates that getting the theology right really does matter; even seemingly esoteric items of doctrine influence how we live in the real world.

I think you just proved Obadiah's point.