If you're in a church that doesn't know right from wrong, what can you do ?

[His_nee (Jeff)]

people have been in churches where their pastor or deacons or other members are knowingly committing adultery,
or stealing from the coffers/budget fund/ etc, or any of several other known and grievous sins. they usually don't know what to do when it is the leadership involved actively in the sin, but some pastors don't even know what to do when their members are sinning openly every week.

how can that be? how can the 'church', the "body of Christ", be in such a depraved condition ? (or is it?)


k9 search terms >>>
<<<what happens in church if the pastor can't tell right from wrong ?>>>
http://www.k9safesearch.com/search....+pastor+can't+tell+right+from+wrong+?&v=w&r=g

http://www.thebereancall.org:80/content/if-your-pastors-wronghow-should-you-correct-him
http://www.thebereancall.org:80/content/if-your-pastors-wronghow-should-you-correct-him
If Your Pastor's Wrong...How Should You Correct Him ...
... is that my church is promoting some ideas that have no scriptural basis as far as I can tell ... tell the pastor and he can’t ... right and you’re wrong ...www.thebereancall.org/content/if-your-pastors-wronghow...
https://answers.yahoo.com:443/question/index?qid=1006020406786
https://answers.yahoo.com:443/question/index?qid=1006020406786
If you knew a pastor was doing something wrong, would you tell?
... doing is wrong or am I telling because I can't ... don't need a pastor to tell you right from wrong.? How do I tell my pastor I do not want to go to church ...https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006020406786
http://www.visionofthechurch.com:80/Titheoverview.pdf
http://www.visionofthechurch.com:80/Titheoverview.pdf
TITHE WHAT YOUR PASTOR DOESN’T WANT YOU TO KNOW
There is nothing wrong with you, pastor, ... Tithe preachers can’t seem to make up their mind ... I really like your church. Tell you what I’m going to do!www.visionofthechurch.com/Titheoverview.pdf
http://www.theblazingcenter.com:80/2011/12/its-not-wrong-to-question-your-pastor.html
http://www.theblazingcenter.com:80/2011/12/its-not-wrong-to-question-your-pastor.html
It’s Not Wrong To Question Your Pastor - The Blazing Center
It’s not wrong see if what a pastor preaches lines up with ... I tell them “pastor” is just my job ... I am personally going through this right know, ...www.theblazingcenter.com/2011/12/its-not-wrong-to...
http://jonathanbrink.com:80/2010/10/02/when-a-pastor-has-an-affair/
http://jonathanbrink.com:80/2010/10/02/when-a-pastor-has-an-affair/
When A Pastor Has An Affair
And I can’t tell you how much it hurt and felt good ... We live in a culture that practices right and wrong, ... if these super human annointed people can’t do it ...jonathanbrink.com/2010/10/02/when-a-pastor-has-an-affair
http://solochristo.com:80/theology/Church/reiwh.htm
http://solochristo.com:80/theology/Church/reiwh.htm
When Should a Christian Leave a Church? - New Covenant Theology
... "none of those things could ever happen in my church." ... regardless of whether he is right or wrong, ... If a Godly pastor and a church are forced to rebuke ...solochristo.com/theology/Church/reiwh.htm
http://www.puritanboard.com:80/f116/when-can-pastor-leave-church-biblically-56913/
http://www.puritanboard.com:80/f116/when-can-pastor-leave-church-biblically-56913/
When can a pastor leave a church Biblically?
How are we to expect husbands to reconcile with their wives when the pastor can't ... have two pastors at a church at ... of coming to the wrong ...www.puritanboard.com/f116/when-can-pastor-leave-church...
http://ask.churchleaders.com:80/120...twrong-reasons-for-someone-to-leave-a-church/
http://ask.churchleaders.com:80/120...twrong-reasons-for-someone-to-leave-a-church/
What are the right /wrong reasons for someone to leave a church ?
Church Question: What are the right/wrong reasons for ... you can't go wrong ... blessings from the senior pastor the wrong way to leave a church or ministry ...ask.churchleaders.com/120394/what-are-the-rightwrong...
http://laurenyarger.wordpress.com:80/2012/01/24/you-know-youre-in-the-wrong-church-when/
http://laurenyarger.wordpress.com:80/2012/01/24/you-know-youre-in-the-wrong-church-when/
You Know You’re in the Wrong Church When . . . | Lauren Yarger
In this particular church, the pastor gave the church ... written scripts by people who can’t act don’t ... whether you’re in the wrong church:laurenyarger.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/you-know-youre-in...


If Your Pastor's Wrong...How Should You Correct Him? - Fresh-Hope
... I'm right and you're wrong but raising a ... who just don't want to go to church, don't want to ... You can usually tell if a Pastor is really trying to be ...www.fresh-hope.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27347

 

[sojourner4Christ]

You've posted many questions. Let's take a look at just the first one for now.:

people have been in churches where their pastor or deacons or other members are knowingly committing adultery,
or stealing from the coffers/budget fund/ etc, or any of several other known and grievous sins. they usually don't know what to do when it is the leadership involved actively in the sin, but some pastors don't even know what to do when their members are sinning openly every week.

how can that be? how can the 'church', the "body of Christ", be in such a depraved condition ? (or is it?)

[Note. There are many godly people who attend church, and there are many positive things about attending church. Many people have discovered and accepted Christ in a church. This is not to put down churches as far as a place to gather and hear the word of God, because it does not matter where one hears God's Truth, as long as they hear it! However, this deals with the topic of "how" we are to worship God, and addresses the belief that one must worship God in a physical building called a church. There is a difference between going to a place to hear God's Word, and going to a place to worship God.]

Did you know that there is no command in scripture which says that a believer in Christ must attend a church building in order to worship God? This is true. Also, there are no examples of any follower of Christ going to a church building to worship God. They worshipped God by their obedience to him in every area of life, every day of their lives. They did not worship him by giving only one hour of their time every week to some temple made with hands.

A "Church" is basically a temple made with hands. Does God dwell in temples made with hands? Scripture tells us:

Acts 7:48, "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"

Acts 17:24, "God...dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"

Keep in mind that the real question we seek to ask is not whether we are to worship, but how we are to worship. Perhaps the question is also where we are to do that. Are we able to do these things only in a building whose mortgage payments are being paid by a State-incorporated ecclesiastical institution, or may we obey them in our homes, or in a context of decentralized, informal, voluntary gatherings? The question before us is, need we "attend church?" Need we hear the "sermons" of special priests in order to obey the Biblical commands to exhort one another and discuss the Scriptures? Can we obey these commands if we only "attend church"?

Hebrews 10:25 gives a straightforward command: Do not forsake the gathering together of ourselves, and exhort one another. It would seem, then, that the question, "Is it our moral obligation to attend church?" receives a fairly straightforward answer: Of course! How, then, can somebody assert that one should not "attend church"?

The command in Hebrews 10:25 (namely, to "exhort one another") is also found in Hebrews 3:13, where it says we are to "exhort one another daily". If we claim to obey Hebrews 10:25 by "attending church" one day a week, do we also fulfill the command to exhort one another daily, when we see other believers only once a week?

Moreover, do we even obey the basic command to exhort one another when we simply listen to the polished oratory of a philosopher? Are we really obeying the Biblical commands concerning exhortation, community, and mutual accountability by once a week watching the performance of a seminary-trained entertainer?

Everybody who reads Hebrews 10:25 realizes that isolationism is contrary to God's Spirit. A family which locks its doors to people, withdraws from the world, and neglects the poor, which spends its time alone in reclusive introspection, is violating the clear commands of the Bible concerning hospitality and the communion of people.

But the real question is not whether believers should exhort one another daily, but whether it is required of believers to engage in a certain kind of meeting, with certain credentialed officers, to expose themselves to a specified ritual of acts which are called "attending church." Is this a scriptural command?

 

[shfam]

sojourner4Christ

I believe as far as gathering in the churches we have to look at Christ and how He himself gathered the people and His disciples to teach them together and He himself taught in a synagogue so if He did this
then He wanted people to be gathered. We are the church. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit therefore anywhere we gather together to build and lift each other up through
the Word of God we are having church.

Matthew 9:35
Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

He not only taught in synagogues but outside in the open. Didn't matter if it was a building or not.

But also:

Ephesians 4:11 states:

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

So some were purposed to be Pastors; therefore, a church must be gathered together to be led.

The purpose of the church is designed for fellowship and the equipping of the saints. It should be a place of encouragement, community and ministry of love.
We all need a church family.

I believe the Lord should lead us to the church that we belong. And all Pastors need to be accountable for their actions and dealt with in grace, truth and love.

My question to you soujourner4Christ...

Have you been hurt by a church? If so, would you mind sharing your story?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

You've posted many questions. Let's take a look at just the first one for now.:
.......
Did you know that there is no command in scripture which says that a believer in Christ must attend a church building in order to worship God? This is true. Also, there are no examples of any follower of Christ going to a church building to worship God. They worshipped God by their obedience to him in every area of life, every day of their lives. They did not worship him by giving only one hour of their time every week to some temple made with hands.....

correct(yes, I've known for a long time) and correct, in "every area" and "every day" of their lives; and it was a tragedy of unimaginable proportions when "church" was changed to a building instead of the people serving God. (ecclesia)

now for what to do for people who are seeking the Kingdom ? should we try to help them, or try to help those who aren't seeking ? The ones not seeking His Kingdom may be like a drowning person, if they are still struggling, they try with a lot of strength to pull down anyone who tries to get close. If they think they "are already in", or they are already "good enough" (for God), well, pray. And don't try anything unless God says to. (which is good instructions any time; in line with Yhwh's Word).

If they are seeking God's Kingdom, realizing somehow they have not achieved it, how blessed they are!

 

[reba]

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

[Kathi]

I know of a church were the youth pastor is living with his girlfriend.I do not think this is right.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I know of a church were the youth pastor is living with his girlfriend.I do not think this is right.

Both true. and the sin should not be ignored in the Body of Christ, as it contaminates the whole body when it is allowed.
But it is happening all over the country - widespread, publicized, sins that should not even be talked about; permitted or perpetrated by leaders and hirelings. Yhwh's people are able to be set free, Yhwh willing. It requires simple child-like faith and reliance on Yeshua.(He brings the deliverance to pass! Yes! --- He has already provided for the deliverance and everything pertaining to salvation and healing for His people, in this life and in the life to come! Yes! ) And repentance. True and total repentance. (without holiness no one shall see the Kingdom). Yhwh will remove the sin and all the consequences of sin. He has done everything required. now "If His people, who are called by His Name .... .... ... "

 

[Kathi]

You leave that Church.

 

[Gary]

If you're in a church that doesn't know right from wrong, what can you do ?

You leave that Church.

No if, ands or buts. You get up and walk out and never look back.
.

 

[reba]

I would leave after telling the pastor and the youth pastor together why..

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I would leave after telling the pastor and the youth pastor together why..

maybe. (tell). remember what happended to lil' red when she talked to them !

honestly, pray , pray, pray a lot. tell them IF , well, IF God says to. by the point of leaving though, there's probably been lots of people, or at least a few, 'talk' to them...... wolves don't ever listen(with a view to repenting) , they just take the information , add it to their arsenal /collection, and use it against you or anyone else that tries to expose them.

if they're not wolves, they will listen way before it gets to this point, I would think.... but all day every day keep in prayer.

 

[Mike S]

I don't think this kind of thing happens all that often, certainly not in my experience. If it DID happen, I'd leave, but only after telling the pastor, and (if the church is part of a larger denomination) going to the regional and national levels with complaints. That behavior absolutely cannot be tolerated. Think of the damage that's been done to the Catholic church by ignoring behavior that should have resulted in discipline and defrocking. I have great respect for the Catholic church, but what they put up with, and even covered up, was inexcusable.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

edit reba
might be a good idea to leave the moderating to the moderators


thank you reba, I'm learning some of the protocols. I reported the post through channels.

 

[Kathi]

No if, ands or buts. You get up and walk out and never look back.
.

You got it brother.And never look back.

 

[reba]

Seems i remember a scripture about bringing this kind of stuff before the brethren... To not do so would be against scripture...

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Seems i remember a scripture about bringing this kind of stuff before the brethren... To not do so would be against scripture...

this is so about something sometimes so different. this is not about brethren sinning. it is about a wolf, or worse, who is not in any way brethren - different scenario entirely.

when it is about brethren, that is so much simpler, no matter how difficult it gets, and different steps are a lot more readily available for 'healing' the situation.

 

[Gary]

Matthew 15
12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
.

 

[agua.]

Matthew 15
12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
.

Gaz how will we know if the person presenting false doctrine is a wolf or simply a misguided Christian ? I'm getting the impression that there's no instruction in the Bible to remove a Christian from the congregation for holding/teaching a false doctrine so if the wolf shows no outward sins then we leave them alone ?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Gaz how will we know if the person presenting false doctrine is a wolf or simply a misguided Christian ? I'm getting the impression that there's no instruction in the Bible to remove a Christian from the congregation for holding/teaching a false doctrine so if the wolf shows no outward sins then we leave them alone ?

How many men of Yhwh the last 2000 years or so
since the Apostle Paul went to sleep have been able to deal with the wolves, or have dealt with them ?
( I think not too many, numbers wise )

 

[reba]

Whining about the state the church and churches are in and walking away from a known real problem just doesn't' seem like the thing to do..
Walking away and leaving a fox in the hen house not my idea of a good thing there are chicks in the hen house... Speaking up IMO is the better choice,