Infant Baptism and the Bible: Should Babies Be Baptized?

[Scotth1960]

Wow, that's some twisted history brother, but I'm glad you acknowledged that councils are the ones that authoritively interpret with the guidance of the Holy Spirit or course, the teachings of the Church.

Buy the way, the Catholic Church was calling itself the Catholic Church long before 1014 friend. See below:

Ignatius of Antioch
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).


The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).


The Muratorian Canon
"Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).


Tertullian
"Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).

Dear A Christian,

The same Catholic Church in Constantinople I in 381 AD, with 318 Church Fathers, said "who proceeds from the Father". Later popes denied the application of this Council, and amended the Creed according to the false Council of Toledo, Spain, from 589 AD. This is preferring a local council's authority above that of this ecumenical council which was AT ONE TIME ENDORSED BY THE POPES OF ROME, but NOW the POPES OF ROME NO LONGER BELIEVE IN CONSTANTINOPLE I of 381 AD.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[whitney]

He worked through His Church Whitney. Do you, Whitney, acknowledge that Catholic councils decided which books would be in the New Testament? Do you Whitney, acknowledge that a Catholic pope decreed that your New Testament, debated and decided upon by Catholic councils, was indeed the Word of God? Let's not dance around this fact Whitney. Let's not try to sweep this under the rug. You are going to have to face this fact. If you deny this, you lose credibility and you should not want that.

The Bible exists because God wanted it to exist, it does not exist because the Catholic Church wanted it to exist nor are they the reason it exists. The Bible does not owe it's existance to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church did not give the Bible to the World. God gave the Bible to the world and He simply used men to do His will.
The Bible tells us His Words will last forever, they will endure and we know God will use any means and anyone to do His Will.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear A Christian,

The same Catholic Church in Constantinople I in 381 AD, with 318 Church Fathers, said "who proceeds from the Father". Later popes denied the application of this Council, and amended the Creed according to the false Council of Toledo, Spain, from 589 AD. This is preferring a local council's authority above that of this ecumenical council which was AT ONE TIME ENDORSED BY THE POPES OF ROME, but NOW the POPES OF ROME NO LONGER BELIEVE IN CONSTANTINOPLE I of 381 AD.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Please remain on topic.

We are only interested in what God shows us about baptism.

 

[Scotth1960]

Please remain on topic.

We are only interested in what God shows us about baptism.

Dear Alabaster,
What does God show us about the Anabaptists? These were the first believers who denied infant baptism. Until then, the Church everywhere had always baptized everyone, or any age, from infant to adult. Some of these people, the Anabaptists, rejecting infant baptism, baptized themselves? Where does Scripture say about this, self baptism? I read, "Once while I [James Early] was in seminary, I watched a movie called "The Radicals", which chronicles the beginning of the Anabaptist movement. ... While watching "The Radicals", I remember cheering silently while the early Anabaptist leader Conrad Grebel baptized himself and then George Blaurock, who in turn baptized about fifteen others, giving birth to the Anabaptist movement. I never questioned the rationale behind believers' baptism. " [James Early, FROM BAPTIST TO BYZANTIUM; p. 84-85, Regina Orthodox Press, Salisbury, MA].
Where, Alabaster, do you read that the true Church of Jesus Christ ever had members who baptized themselves? Did Cornelius baptize himself, or was he baptized by St. Peter? These men who deny infant baptism had men baptizing themselves? If every believer baptism is valid, what about self-baptism?
Don't we need a visible Church hierarchy that can baptize infants and adults alike?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster,
What does God show us about the Anabaptists? These were the first believers who denied infant baptism. Until then, the Church everywhere had always baptized everyone, or any age, from infant to adult. Some of these people, the Anabaptists, rejecting infant baptism, baptized themselves? Where does Scripture say about this, self baptism? I read, "Once while I [James Early] was in seminary, I watched a movie called "The Radicals", which chronicles the beginning of the Anabaptist movement. ... While watching "The Radicals", I remember cheering silently while the early Anabaptist leader Conrad Grebel baptized himself and then George Blaurock, who in turn baptized about fifteen others, giving birth to the Anabaptist movement. I never questioned the rationale behind believers' baptism. " [James Early, FROM BAPTIST TO BYZANTIUM; p. 84-85, Regina Orthodox Press, Salisbury, MA].

Not interested in groups and what they did or do. I am only concerned about what God thinks and says for us to do.

Please cease with the CHURCHIANITY---it is an oppressive bore, and lets talk about Christianity.

Where, Alabaster, do you read that the true Church of Jesus Christ ever had members who baptized themselves? Did Cornelius baptize himself, or was he baptized by St. Peter? These men who deny infant baptism had men baptizing themselves? If every believer baptism is valid, what about self-baptism?
Don't we need a visible Church hierarchy that can baptize infants and adults alike?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

No one teaches baptizing of oneself. We baptize each other, just as was done in Jesus' day. Hierarchy doesn't have anything to do with this.

 

[Scotth1960]

Not interested in groups and what they did or do. I am only concerned about what God thinks and says for us to do.

Please cease with the CHURCHIANITY---it is an oppressive bore, and lets talk about Christianity.



No one teaches baptizing of oneself. We baptize each other, just as was done in Jesus' day. Hierarchy doesn't have anything to do with this.

Dear Alabaster, You need to be more self-consistent. You mentioned "the true Church of Jesus Christ". Sounds like you preach Churchianity of some kind, too. Christianity. Churchianity. They are the same thing! Kindly quit quibbling over words. Christ founded a Church (Matthew 16:18). Where are His churches? Where did they go? Ministers of the Church baptize the laity. Minister baptize other ministers. That is all that hierarchy means. Don't be afraid of words!
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS I was just pointing out the historical fact that no one questioned baptism practice until the middle ages, the time of the Reformation being still in the middle ages. You are sidestepping the issue. Which Church Father taught against infant baptism? Do you have a document outside of the NT that supports your view of baptism from the NT, that was written in the first 300-400 years after Christ. Where is "believer only baptism" taught in the early Church. The NT does not interpret itself; someone must interpret it for us. Why should I believe your interpretation. Where do you get your teaching from?

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, You need to be more self-consistent. You mentioned "the true Church of Jesus Christ". Sounds like you preach Churchianity of some kind, too. Christianity. Churchianity. They are the same thing! Kindly quit quibbling over words. Christ founded a Church (Matthew 16:18). Where are His churches? Where did they go? Ministers of the Church baptize the laity. Minister baptize other ministers. That is all that hierarchy means. Don't be afraid of words!

I am consistent. The true Church of Jesus Christ has no walls or edifices. It is His followers, His Body.

PS I was just pointing out the historical fact that no one questioned baptism practice until the middle ages, the time of the Reformation being still in the middle ages. You are sidestepping the issue. Which Church Father taught against infant baptism? Do you have a document outside of the NT that supports your view of baptism from the NT, that was written in the first 300-400 years after Christ. Where is "believer only baptism" taught in the early Church. The NT does not interpret itself; someone must interpret it for us. Why should I believe your interpretation. Where do you get your teaching from?

Document Schmocument.

We have the living, breathing word of God, which teaches clearly that only those who are able to repent and believe on Jesus Christ with the underlying and necessary understanding that they are sinners and need a Saviour and will be committed to serving Christ with his life can qualify for water baptism.

You really need to read the full OP before you engage here further. If you wish to pursue a debate on this topic, kindly paste certain excerpts of the OP you wish to address. Otherwise I shall have to conclude you are only here to proselytize for your church.

 

[whitney]

I am consistent. The true Church of Jesus Christ has no walls or edifices. It is His followers, His Body.



Document Schmocument.

We have the living, breathing word of God, which teaches clearly that only those who are able to repent and believe on Jesus Christ with the underlying and necessary understanding that they are sinners and need a Saviour and will be committed to serving Christ with his life can qualify for water baptism.

You really need to read the full OP before you engage here further. If you wish to pursue a debate on this topic, kindly paste certain excerpts of the OP you wish to address. Otherwise I shall have to conclude you are only here to proselytize for your church.

AMEN!
If the OP was used though, Alabaster, there would be no argument! God's Word stands firm!

 

[Scotth1960]

I am consistent. The true Church of Jesus Christ has no walls or edifices. It is His followers, His Body.



Document Schmocument.

We have the living, breathing word of God, which teaches clearly that only those who are able to repent and believe on Jesus Christ with the underlying and necessary understanding that they are sinners and need a Saviour and will be committed to serving Christ with his life can qualify for water baptism.

You really need to read the full OP before you engage here further. If you wish to pursue a debate on this topic, kindly paste certain excerpts of the OP you wish to address. Otherwise I shall have to conclude you are only here to proselytize for your church.

Dear Alabaster, Here we go again. Why discuss the Bible at all if we cannot learn how to "rightly divide (discern) the word of truth". "Study to shew thyself as one approved unto God, rightly discerning the word of truth"? (Paul to Timothy). Don't we agree with that? What about the group, "It's all me and my duck, no infant baptism, no virginity of Mary after Christ was born club? Since where did you read that in the early church documents outside of the NT? Shouldn't the early church know better than you and me what the NT means?
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, Here we go again. Why discuss the Bible at all if we cannot learn how to "rightly divide (discern) the word of truth". "Study to shew thyself as one approved unto God, rightly discerning the word of truth"? (Paul to Timothy). Don't we agree with that? What about the group, "It's all me and my duck, no infant baptism, no virginity of Mary after Christ was born club? Since where did you read that in the early church documents outside of the NT? Shouldn't the early church know better than you and me what the NT means?
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Try it. You will like it, Scott. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth and He will.

 

[Alabaster]

AMEN!
If the OP was used though, Alabaster, there would be no argument! God's Word stands firm!

Absolutely! There is nothing that can set itself up against the truth of the Word of God that the scriptures cannot dismantle!


Infant baptism has been successfully dismantled in the OP, but stubborn and deceived hearts reject it.

We need to pray against the deception as warriors. By the authority of Jesus Christ, we can command deceiving spirits and confusion to get lost, in Jesus' name.

 

[A-Christian]

Where is "age of reason" refered to in the New Testament?


Does the New Testament say that entire households were baptized?


Is faith in Christ necessary for salvation?


Anyone? Alabaster? Whitney?

 

[Alabaster]

Where is "age of reason" refered to in the New Testament?

Nowhere.

Does the New Testament say that entire households were baptized?

Yes, those who are of a household who come to faith and belief in Christ.

Is faith in Christ necessary for salvation?

Yes.

 

[A-Christian]

Whitney, do yo agree with Alabaster's answers to the questions asked in the post above?

 

[whitney]

Whitney, do yo agree with Alabaster's answers to the questions asked in the post above?

Yes.

 

[A-Christian]

Great. Ok, let's explore just the first question that Alabaster and Whitney answered "nowhere" to.
The question was:
Where is scripture is "age of reason" taught concerning baptism?

I ask now, if the scriptures don't clearing say, as you rightly agreed with, that baptism is only for persons old enough to reason that Christ is Lord, why do some Protestants adhere so tightly to the belief that "age of reason" is the only correct circumstance for baptism?

 

[whitney]

Great. Ok, let's explore just the first question that Alabaster and Whitney answered "nowhere" to.
The question was:
Where is scripture is "age of reason" taught concerning baptism?

I ask now, if the scriptures don't clearing say, as you rightly agreed with, that baptism is only for persons old enough to reason that Christ is Lord, why do some Protestants adhere so tightly to the belief that "age of reason" is the only correct circumstance for baptism?

The reason for that can be found in the OP posts, Alabaster really did a good job of laying out the truth, in a very simple, easy to understand way. Rehashing what has already been written and explained is simply cycling the same issues. Which part of the OP do you disagree with? Which scriptures do you not understand?

 

[A-Christian]

Ok Whitney, you are avoiding the question. "age of reason is not taught in scripture as you have already affirmed.
Let's move on to the next question:

We know that scripture says that entire households were baptized. Does it say entire households except for children that were too young to "reason"? I don't see it, do you?


By the way Whitney, what did you think about the quotes from Christians of the early Church that I posted?

 

[Drew]

The reason for that can be found in the OP posts, Alabaster really did a good job of laying out the truth, in a very simple, easy to understand way. Rehashing what has already been written and explained is simply cycling the same issues. Which part of the OP do you disagree with? Which scriptures do you not understand?

I politely suggest that Alabaster has not made a strong case. Several of his scriptural arguments have been shown to be incorrect (by me, if not by others).

There is no Biblical basis to not baptize infants.

 

[Drew]

Where is scripture is "age of reason" taught concerning baptism?

There is no such teaching.