interesting thread - worth a look

[Lloyd]

http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41144

 

[jasoncran]

http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41144

ok well the moderation and admin team has known of fullpreterism. i take it as heritical to say that the devil and judgment is done.

i lean to the partial preterist position myself in some parts. no eschatology has it right 100%.

i can say the same with the dispy. they deny the fact that if isreal's return 1948 (this generation that sees that will not see death) then god must return no later then 2048. the greatest generation world wide is dying off quickly and they were around to see that.

 

[Lloyd]

Hi Jason,

I'm just digging through the entire thread myself as the initial viewpoint always seems correct until someone questions it.

I've always been a 'future' type of person (for want of a better expression) but having discussed and seen posts on this site, a lot of them make sense (see Storm, Hitch etc), however I do get turned off by some of the preterism type posts here due to the arrogance and self-confidence of the posts and some of the remarks.

I guess for me, I don't know history or the Bible enough or have enough understanding to be 100% confident of my posts about end-times. I can only offer what I feel I understand correctly, and in all honesty, especially end-times, I don't know too much!

 

[jasoncran]

i have researched this matter for months and its too tedious to simply keep doing all the time. if becomes a distraction and honeslty each sides has assumptions and speculations that they go from. that tells me a lot

take the 144,000 on the futurist side.

what if that was in the past? also where does it say they evangalise. they dont its just assumed that they do. in the days of james they wrote to the 12 tribes that were scattered. so its reasonable to say these have been gathered.


james 1

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

now then also try to look at the language and culture of the hebrews and where aslo the 666 came from(the gemetria) and the gemetria is very specefic and it points to names and things. its not vague at all.

the YHWH has a number(5) and the name malach YHWH has a number of 314.

the latter is the Lord jesus christ. he claimed a title called the good sheppard(el shaddai) that has that same number.

this doesnt mean the partial types have the answer on all things. i dont.

 

[Lehigh3]

Jason,
from the Preterist pov, the 144k were that Hebrew "remnant at the present time" Paul spoke of. They are only depicted as being saved in Revelation. Only the "2 witnesses" necessarily are depicted as evangelizing in Rev.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lloyd,
I couldn't care less about name calling. I'm an heretic then & proud of it. I know God knows the truth right along with Preterists, so I am well at peace with the eschatological position my studies have brought.

Here's an even more dark pov, much worse than "heretical"

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=1750

 

[jasoncran]

i am aware of that and the two witness also are found in zechariah 4.

 

[Stormcrow]

http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41144

I used to subscribe to a dispy/futurist view of the "end-times", which is the widely held view of 21st century American fundamentalists and evangelicals.

That view of eschatology was dismantled for me one brick as a time when a Messianic Jew showed me the true meaning of Daniel 9:24-27 from the Hebrew, and that it had nothing to do with a supposed antichrist.

That passage is a lynchpin of dispy/futurist eschatology and it made me think, "if what I've been taught and what I believe about this is wrong, what else has this view gotten wrong?"

Once you start down that path, you'll find a lot of what dispy/futurism teaches can't be supported under close scrutiny of the Bible.

Having read some of the link you posted, Lloyd, I can only describe what I read as emotional responses from people who are afraid of having their beliefs challenged. I also saw a lot of the same kind of misinterpretation of the Bible that I used to believe.

Sorry. Knowing what I know now, I can't go back to that view of eschatology. It works by pulling a handful of verses completely out of context and weaving an entire doctrine out of whole cloth.

I can be confident in what I now believe because it takes a much wider view of the Bible and what Christ's sacrifice means.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[jasoncran]

note:

not all messianic jews are preterists. some are dispy and others a different category.

 

[reba]

Lloyd,

Preterist do not all have the same view.
The simple terms are "orthodox or partial"
to "full preterist. "

Most here are orthodox and believe Christ will return.

 

[Stormcrow]

no eschatology has it right 100%.

I've seen this several times now in a couple of different threads, and - for the record - I must respectfully disagree.

Christ and the apostles had it 100% right, so I'll hold to whatever view they had. The apostles wrote about end-times extensively, so if we're going to get it right, we need to understand it from their point-of-view, not ours.

Just my $.02.

 

[Stormcrow]

The simple terms are "orthodox or partial"
to "full preterist. "

I think "preterism" is a strawman anyway, based on what you've written. If people believe Christ came to earth and fulfilled 300+ prophecies, by definition that makes them "preterist" too.

No one can - by definition - be "futurist" because we all agree that much of Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.

It all boils down - I believe - to having a deeper understanding of the Bible from an apostolic point-of-view. In other words, we need to understand Christ's words and the scriptures as they saw them, not as we do.

 

[jasoncran]

I've seen this several times now in a couple of different threads, and - for the record - I must respectfully disagree.

Christ and the apostles had it 100% right, so I'll hold to whatever view they had. The apostles wrote about end-times extensively, so if we're going to get it right, we need to understand it from their point-of-view, not ours.

Just my $.02.

uh no, if you think you have it all packed then why bother reading your bible then?

an a candid admission from paul in one corinthinians 13

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

paul said we and that would include all then church leadership! prophecies in part.

i think not. john lived after your fullness and said nothing of that to my knowledge.

 

[reba]

Stormcrow, you know good and well we all use simple words to describe things.

Preterist is a word used to help us understand each other as we get into conversation the meaning can/will become more defined,. Sheesh Storm lighten up.

 

[Stormcrow]

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The perfect has already come:

{8} The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, {9} which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, {10} since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

The Law was imperfect.

{11} But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; {12} and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. {13} For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, {14} how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:8-14 (NASB)

{14} For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)

The perfect came in the form of Christ and His sacrifice. Again, everything in the prophetic voice of the OT looked forward to the coming of Christ. Everything in prophecy revolves around Him. He is the perfect sacrifice and by His sacrifice He has perfected us.

{22} But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, {23} to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, {24} and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)

This is the big problem with futurism: it looks past the cross and sacrifice of Christ to something they believe will "complete" the plan of God.

God's plan for the salvation and sanctification of mankind was perfected in Christ. Futurism - for lack of a better term - preaches a different gospel.

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow, you know good and well we all use simple words to describe things.

Preterist is a word used to help us understand each other as we get into conversation the meaning can/will become more defined,. Sheesh Storm lighten up.

I wasn't knocking your post, Reba, only using it to make a point.

The problem I see with these kinds of labels is that they - more often than not - stereotype people into doctrinal "ghettos" where they can then be ignored.

I have quite direct and personal experience with this very thing. I asked a pastor teaching on Revelation once a simple question. He said, "Oh, so you're a preterist" then turned his back on me to shake someone else's hand.

Labels like these only end conversations. I've never had a good discussion with anyone who uses them to define me or my views.

 

[Stormcrow]

if you think you have it all packed then why bother reading your bible then?

I'm sorry, Jason...I didn't know this thread was about me.

 

[jasoncran]

it wasnt, but you made that statement.

i admit when i dont know. if you did know that well and the apostles.my then that an admission that the church after them that put the bible together was also way off on their views on eschatology


and somehow the churches then and now are that far off that god cant keep his word and his people. yes we all get off on tangents and it easy and i can see why the dispy has occured but imho when he returns it will be like it wast first time. we will look back and see wow how far off we all were.

 

[Hitch]

Any one who believes Jesus when He says 'this generation ' should be burned at the stake.


We can shout that the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ had no effect whatever on the enemy, probably made it stronger. And it will keep getting stronger until Jesus shows up and vomits up a giant sword. And if you are a real and true believer you KNOW the way things are going this will all play out by next week, well next month for sure . If you doubt me just look at Israel! The real power on earth today is not the Church of Jesus Christ indwelt by the Holy Spirit, satan is the god of this world,and God's ' timeout'' plan was only used to make up for the jews missing their kingdom. But they will get it back or J Vernon McGee is a false prophet. As soon as they all see him they'll change and then the sacrifices can start again ....

BTW the enemy doest give a rip whether anyone thinks it exists or not, it is concerned with dethroning Jesus Christ and harming His followers. And it was pretty successful doing just that with dispensationalism.

 

[jasoncran]

hmm while i am not a fan of dispy but to say that the rcc is the ac is also a tab bit off and calvin,luther and a lot of the reformers thought that.

 

[Hitch]

hmm while i am not a fan of dispy but to say that the rcc is the ac is also a tab bit off and calvin,luther and a lot of the reformers thought that.

I had a vision of Mary and she said no way Jose.