Is belief "works"?

[Butch5]

As to your last Question Jethro, I believe that a person can Stop from believing and completely reject the truth that they once embraced. But salvation and justification is from Him and He cannot deny Himself of His Promise to eternally save at the moment of belief in Christ, no matter what the creature behaves like after salvation. 2 Tim 2:13; Tit 1:2

1 Cor 3:14-15 deals with this behavior and rejection of truth after salvation and Justification.

The perfect integrity of God cannot be canceled by the failure or renunciation of any believer living on earth according to 2 Timothy 2:11-13. God is faithful to His Word. If we died with Him as we have as believers, then we will live with Him forever. If we endure suffering for blessing, we will rule with Him as mature believers. If we deny Him by refusing to grow spiritually, He will not be able to convey rewards and blessings that spiritual growth always brings. Even though we may be unfaithful, disbelieving, or faithless following our salvation, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

What exactly did Jesus say about those who disbelieve? Didn't He say they were condemned?

 

[Butch5]

Paul plainly says faith does justify. Plainly. It's impossible to argue the point.

Justify does not mean atone.

Paul says it is THE condition for justification. No where does he say what we do, in or out of the law, except for the 'work' of believing, makes us righteous
before God.

Look at chapters three and four. His whole argument is based there and it concerns the Mosaic Law.

But not in regard to being made legally perfect before God, but in regard to showing oneself to be a new creation that now does righteous things. It is
required that you be changed into a new creation by your faith for that faith to
be of a quality that can save you. We know we have that faith, the faith that
changes a person into a new creation, by what we do.

That argument doesn't work which I've already shown in this thread. James said I will show you my faith out of my works. Works can't be the product of faith if faith comes out of works. It's not possible.

If you insist that James means 'justified' in the exact same way that Paul uses it then you set him in direct opposition to Paul, for no where does Paul say the performance of a work, in or out of the law, can justify. He says only faith, the 'work' of believing, can do that.

Actually, no he doesn't say only faith can justify. That statement cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures. Also to argue the Paul never said a work can justify is an argument from silence which is a logical fallacy. Granted it may not be recorded in Scripture but that doesn't mean Paul never said it. Considering the faith that Paul "Never" said faith only justifies my position doesn't put any contradiction between Paul and James. However, give that James said that his faith came out of his works your position is actually the one that places the contradiction between Paul and James. This perceived tension between Paul and James stems from your argument, Luther had the same problem.

 

[Agape]

Luther called the book of James "an epistle of straw" and once offered his doctor's cap to anyone who could reconcile James 2:24 with Romans 3:28.

 

[Deborah13]

Luther called the book of James "an epistle of straw" and once offered his doctor's cap to anyone who could reconcile James 2:24 with Romans 3:28.

I heard he put James as an appendix to the rest of the books.

 

[Deborah13]

and this is what Scofield is supposed to have said “..his epistle shows no trace of the larger revelations of the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the apostle Paul…”

 

[Agape]

I heard he put James as an appendix to the rest of the books.

That's correct.
During the time of the Protestant Reformation Martin Luther questioned the authority of James. He initially thought it taught salvation by works and called it, "a right strawy Epistle." Consequently in the first edition of his German translation of the New Testament Luther put James as an appendix.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1219

 

[Butch5]

and this is what Scofield is supposed to have said “..his epistle shows no trace of the larger revelations of the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the apostle Paul…”

If only they had understood Paul.

 

[heymikey80]

Luther called the book of James "an epistle of straw" and once offered his doctor's cap to anyone who could reconcile James 2:24 with Romans 3:28.

He also discovered the views of other reformers at later times and softened his own view. I've never seen James as an appendix, though.

Luther's first foreword to James in his German translation contained his initial negative evaluation of the book. That changed with collaboration among other reformers.

Found in the Wikipedia article is a picture of how Luther re-ordered the New Testament, placing Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation at the end based on his low view of their teaching the Gospel -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible#View_of_canonicity .

 

[heymikey80]

and this is what Scofield is supposed to have said “..his epistle shows no trace of the larger revelations of the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the apostle Paul…”

Scofield: James' theme, then, is "religion" (Gr., threskeia, "outward religious service") as the expression and proof of faith. He does not exalt works as against faith, but faith as producing works. His style is that of the Wisdom-books of the O.T.

I don't side with Scofield on much, but this view is shared by a number of reformers and commentators.

 

[Agape]

If only they had understood Paul.

you mean James.

Tradition fixes the martyrdom of James in the year 62, but his Epistle shows no trace of the larger revelations concerning the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the Apostle Paul, nor even of the discussion concerning the relation of Gentile converts to the law of Moses, which culminated in the first council (Ac 15.), over which James presided. This presumes the very early date of James, which may confidently be set down as "the first Epistle to Christians."--Weston
http://bibleapps.com/sco/james/1.htm

 

[heymikey80]

Justify does not mean atone.

What does "save" mean?

Look at chapters three and four. His whole argument is based there and it concerns the Mosaic Law.

Yet in Romans 4:4-5 Paul denies that justification is by works. Abraham. Pre-law.

That argument doesn't work which I've already shown in this thread. James said I will show you my faith out of my works. Works can't be the product of faith if faith comes out of works. It's not possible.

Butch say wha ...? James says he's going to show you something by showing you something that results from it. Faith brings about works, works can be seen, therefore works show the unseen faith that people have. Do you have any evidence that works come first? Where? Works as a show of faith demand that faith precedes works. Otherwise works show nuthin'.

Actually, no he doesn't say only faith can justify. That statement cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures. Also to argue the Paul never said a work can justify is an argument from silence which is a logical fallacy. Granted it may not be recorded in Scripture but that doesn't mean Paul never said it. Considering the faith that Paul "Never" said faith only justifies my position doesn't put any contradiction between Paul and James. However, give that James said that his faith came out of his works your position is actually the one that places the contradiction between Paul and James. This perceived tension between Paul and James stems from your argument, Luther had the same problem.

"to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as justification" Rom 4:5 . No work, but Faith, is credited as Justification.

 

[gr8grace]

What exactly did Jesus say about those who disbelieve? Didn't He say they were condemned?

We just believe different things. I have faith that Christ will save me at the moment I believe and He remains faithful to save me. I can attest to the freedom of that belief.

I will guess that you do not consider yourself perfect. So how many times have you lost your salvation? Or have you done everything just perfect? Always the right faith always the right works? or are you in and out of salvation everyday?

 

[Agape]

He also discovered the views of other reformers at later times and softened his own view. I've never seen James as an appendix, though.

Luther's first foreword to James in his German translation contained his initial negative evaluation of the book. That changed with collaboration among other reformers.

Yes, he did reconsider his view on James

Luther had a low view of the books of Esther, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. He called the epistle of James "an epistle of straw", finding little in it that pointed to Christ and His saving work- though he later revised his opinion of James, seeing it as more compatible with Pauline teaching later in his career than earlier. He also had harsh words for the book of Revelation, saying that he could "in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it." He had reason to question the apostolicity of these books since the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they weren't accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his edition of the scriptures.
http://www.theopedia.com/Martin_Luther

So Luther kept his doctor's cap. ;)

 

[heymikey80]

He had reason to question the apostolicity of these books since the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they weren't accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his edition of the scriptures.
http://www.theopedia.com/Martin_Luther

So Luther kept his doctor's cap. ;)

And it also leads us to question why, if other Apostolic tradition churches saw the books as antilegomena, why the same latitude wouldn't be afforded Luther(ans).

 

[Deborah13]

John 8:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:56

King James Version (KJV)

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 6:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I believe this ....that "faith without works is dead" and I believe that these are the works that James was speaking of. Both he and Paul referred to Abraham's righteousness being accounted to him referring to Genesis 15:6 before he was circumcised.

Abraham believed in the Redeemer even though he saw Him a far off, Hebrews 11:13. This is the work of God that was accounted to Abraham and Rahab.
If that makes belief "works" so be it, but we cannot boast in this work as it only comes to us by grace through faith.

 

[heymikey80]

I believe this ....that "faith without works is dead" and I believe that these are the works that James was speaking of. Both he and Paul referred to Abraham's righteousness being accounted to him referring to Genesis 15:6 before he was circumcised.

On a practical level, a faith that does not in time result in works that faith is indeed a dead faith. There are things called "faith" in Greek that don't save.

But faith and not working, that justifies us before God. Rom 4:4-5 And by grace are we saved, not from works, through faith for works. Eph 2:8-10

Abraham believed in the Redeemer even though he saw Him a far off, Hebrews 11:13. This is the work of God that was accounted to Abraham and Rahab.
If that makes belief "works" so be it, but we cannot boast in this work as it only comes to us by grace through faith.

It doesn't make belief a work that draws some wage of justification and salvation. Faith is not considered any kind of work for a wage. Salvation is through faith, not by a work (which again, wouldn't save, according to Paul).

 

[Deborah13]

It doesn't make belief a work that draws some wage of justification and salvation. Faith is not considered any kind of work for a wage. Salvation is through faith, not by a work (which again, wouldn't save, according to Paul).

[Abraham believed in the Redeemer even though he saw Him a far off, Hebrews 11:13. This is the work of God that was accounted to Abraham and Rahab.
If that makes belief "works" so be it, but we cannot boast in this work as it only comes to us by grace through faith]

I think that's what I said, that Abraham's work was believing in the Redeemer, and that it was actually God's work, and it could not be the works of Eph 2:8-9.
In other words no works other than believing in the Savior has any power to justify us. It is completely in agreement with Paul. James and Paul are saying the same thing but James isn't as clear.
Gee...some five letter words....WORKS

 

[Butch5]

you mean James.

Tradition fixes the martyrdom of James in the year 62, but his Epistle shows no trace of the larger revelations concerning the church and the distinctive doctrines of grace made through the Apostle Paul, nor even of the discussion concerning the relation of Gentile converts to the law of Moses, which culminated in the first council (Ac 15.), over which James presided. This presumes the very early date of James, which may confidently be set down as "the first Epistle to Christians."--Weston
http://bibleapps.com/sco/james/1.htm

No, I mean Paul. It appears Luther did not understand Paul.

 

[Butch5]

We just believe different things. I have faith that Christ will save me at the moment I believe and He remains faithful to save me. I can attest to the freedom of that belief.

I will guess that you do not consider yourself perfect. So how many times have you lost your salvation? Or have you done everything just perfect? Always the right faith always the right works? or are you in and out of salvation everyday?

Scripture doesn't say one is saved the moment they believe. How is one saved while still in sin? Regarding salvation, once it's lost, that's it, there is no getting saved again. Jesus said He would save those who believe, not those who used to believe. If one decides they are no longer going to follow they no longer have the promise.

 

[gr8grace]

Scripture doesn't say one is saved the moment they believe. How is one saved while still in sin? Regarding salvation, once it's lost, that's it, there is no getting saved again. Jesus said He would save those who believe, not those who used to believe. If one decides they are no longer going to follow they no longer have the promise.

So you have always believed the right things and have always done the right things? at no time have you done the wrong thing or believed the wrong thing? But you know others who have?