Bible Study Is Death A Sin? - Yes!

[Edward]

I agree with most of your post Edward, except O.T. folk being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit Came on them for particular jobs to be done, not indwelt until Salvation came to man.

I think perhaps it's semantics. I may have just had a poor choice of words brother. Not that they were indwelt the way we are, but they proably had the Holy Spirit with them, and other chosen few for specific jobs like you say. Do you think there's a difference in being indwelt, and having an anointing for a specific purpose? Having the Holy Spirit with you, is having the Holy Spirit with you... I think.

I certainly agree that Adam and, or, Eve did not physically die when they sinned. That to me is a silly belief because they continued on in LIFE to bear children and live a long life. Certainly they were not dead spiritually. For us, God says that He will not leave us and I believe that goes for Adam and Eve because God does not change.

We know they didn't die physically then. Dead spiritually? Maybe maybe not. That they continued to believe in God (how could they not, they seen Him!), might not mean that they weren't dead spiritually? I guess it all depends on how God defines spiritual death and what all that encompasses. He did say that on that day they would die, and there's Satans first lie to them...you shall not surely die...So what happened? Something had to happen because God doesn't lie.

 

[Karl]

Okay, since you won't believe man's spirit is dead, or that the spirit of Adam died to communion with God the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, then how do you explain these verses,

For as the body without the spirit is dead (nekros - a corpse; dead literally or figuratively, so faith without works is dead also). For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Jas 2:26

If Adam passed his own likeness and his own image on to all of his descendents,

And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years and fathered a son in his own likeness, after his own image. Gen 5:3

How did we become dead men, walking corpses, if Adam's spirit was still alive,

And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience; Eph 2:1, 2

if Adam didn't pass his dead to God spirit on to us?

There you go, you ask to see it in the Bible, there it is, all that is left is for you to honestly, comparing Scripture with Scripture, receive/accept the Truth.

 

[TimothyW]

Okay, since you won't believe man's spirit is dead, or that the spirit of Adam died to communion with God the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, then how do you explain these verses,

For as the body without the spirit is dead (nekros - a corpse; dead literally or figuratively, so faith without works is dead also). For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Jas 2:26

If Adam passed his own likeness and his own image on to all of his descendents,

And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years and fathered a son in his own likeness, after his own image. Gen 5:3

How did we become dead men, walking corpses, if Adam's spirit was still alive,

And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience; Eph 2:1, 2

if Adam didn't pass his dead to God spirit on to us?

There you go, you ask to see it in the Bible, there it is, all that is left is for you to honestly, comparing Scripture with Scripture, receive/accept the Truth.

James is making the observation that a person (a body) who has no breath is dead. The Greek word for spirit and breath is the same. (pneumatos) James is using an illustration to make his point about works and faith. James' point is not that a spirit can live with no body. James' point is that people need both faith and works. The same as a person needs to have a body and also be breathing in order to be alive.

You asked me "How did we become dead men, walking corpses, if Adam's spirit was still alive?"
I disagree that we are dead men, walking corpses. I know that I am not a dead man OR a walking corpse. Gross. I believe that the "dead" in Ephesians 2:1 is a "Greekism". The certainty of the outcome is stated as a present reality. "The present tense may be used to describe a future event, though it typically adds the connotations of immediacy and certainty." http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html

The scriptures you used did not show (or even actually state) that Adam's spirit died on the day of the fruit incident. You said that I need to "receive/accept the Truth". I believe that I have done that. My belief is that the Bible does not say that Adam's spirit died before his body died when he was 930 years old. I've checked the Bible and it Truly does not say a word about Adam dying before Adam's death. If I were a police detective investigating Adam's "Spiritual Death", I wouldn't find any evidence for it before Adam's 930th birthday.

What do you make of this verse? Genesis 6:3 "My Spirit shall not abide in (or contend with) man forever, for he is flesh; his days shall be 120 years."
If God's Spirit did not abide in Adam his entire life, why does God say this generations later? I admit that I am confused by this verse, I want your opinion about it. This is a troublesome passage of scripture anyway, from Genesis 6:2 to 6:4. Genesis 6:3 seems to be just stuck there in the middle of those other two verses.

 

[Karl]

Tim,

We're going around in circles, the plain and simple answer to thus dilemma is,

What in us needed to be born again or regenerated? Jesus said we must be born again, ...do you believe it and if so, then what in us needs to be born again?

What I and the others have been saying is, the day Adam ate of the forbidden fruit his spirit died, was no longer able to receive communication from God in his spirit (and you gave the proof of this when you said God speaks to people in the OT), yes Adam had a spirit until the day he died 930 years later, but it was useless to him, it no longer functioned in the way it was created to function, just like a man that is paralyzed, he still has his legs attached to his body, but they are useless to him, they no longer function in the way they were designed to function.

If you will consider John 4:24 you will see that is what Jesus is saying,

God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

Before you and I were born again there was no way we could worship God in the spirit, in fact we didn't even know what worshiping God in the spirit was, that was a Truth we learned after we were born again, ...honestly, did you ever worship God in the spirit before you were born again, I didn't, ...I worshiped myself! And that is the spiritual Truth Paul is teaching in Ephesians 3:1.

So again, please tell me what needed to be born again in you and me?



As to Gen 6:3, ...when you understand our spirits are dead to God because were are the descendents of Adam who's spirit died to God you will understand this verse, ...6:5 describes/explains clearly and precisely the actions of a spiritually dead man who does not receive guidance and direction from God through his spirit, but is governed by the info received through his five senses (body) as I have already explained.

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,

We're going around in circles, the plain and simple answer to thus dilemma is,

What in us needed to be born again or regenerated? Jesus said we must be born again, ...do you believe it and if so, then what in us needs to be born again?

What I and the others have been saying is, the day Adam ate of the forbidden fruit his spirit died, was no longer able to receive communication from God in his spirit (and you gave the proof of this when you said God speaks to people in the OT), yes Adam had a spirit until the day he died 930 years later, but it was useless to him, it no longer functioned in the way it was created to function, just like a man that is paralyzed, he still has his legs attached to his body, but they are useless to him, they no longer function in the way they were designed to function.

If you will consider John 4:24 you will see that is what Jesus is saying,

God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

Before you and I were born again there was no way we could worship God in the spirit, in fact we didn't even know what worshiping God in the spirit was, that was a Truth we learned after we were born again, ...honestly, did you ever worship God in the spirit before you were born again, I didn't, ...I worshiped myself! And that is the spiritual Truth Paul is teaching in Ephesians 3:1.

So again, please tell me what needed to be born again in you and me?



As to Gen 6:3, ...when you understand our spirits are dead to God because were are the descendents of Adam who's spirit died to God you will understand this verse, ...6:5 describes/explains clearly and precisely the actions of a spiritually dead man who does not receive guidance and direction from God through his spirit, but is governed by the info received through his five senses (body) as I have already explained.

You are missing what I've been saying and I don't know how else to say it. The Bible doesn't say that Adam died that day.

 

[Karl]

I'm not missing what you are saying, I have tried to give you Scriptural texts that explain what died in Adam.

My question is why won't you answer my question?

What in us needs to be born again?

 

[TimothyW]

I'm not missing what you are saying, I have tried to give you Scriptural texts that explain what died in Adam.

My question is why won't you answer my question?

What in us needs to be born again?

Your scriptures have not explained what died in Adam, don't you see that? The scriptures you gave do not say "This or that died in Adam on the day of his first sin". John 4:24 and Ephesians 3:1 do not even mention Adam at all. God is spirit, according to John 4:24. It is a non sequitur to claim that this means Adam's spirit died. I may as well say "God is Spirit, so I will have to eat sausage for dinner tonight." You conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Likewise with Ephesians 3. Paul says that the mystery was made known to him by the Spirit...So Adam's spirit died? What? How does that follow?

I am answering your other question here, and explaining why I don't like the question:
What "In Us" needs to be born again? I dislike the question, because of the assumptions you bring when you ask it that way. You ASSUME that something has died in us, so that Something needs to be born again. I assume you mean the spirit. I disagree with that. What needs to be born again is us. In Greek the word is anothen, and it means "from above, all over again". The feeling I get is "once again, from the top". It is as if you completely erased a chalkboard (from the top down) and rewrote EVERYTHING that you had previously written there. The "part" of us that needs to be born again is "all of us", every part. Do you see why I don't like the question?

 

[Edward]

God saves us in three ways according to 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. God saves us spirit, soul and body. It starts with our spirit. Our spirit is born again. Our soul consists of our mind, our will and our emotions. So, our emotions don’t get born again. Our spirit gets born again. And that goes to heaven. Our soul goes to heaven also, but it doesn’t get born again, so it has to be renewed; it has to be changed, reprogrammed, retaught and retrained. Your soul, your mind, your will, your emotions were all trained by your experiences and trained by your parents and trained by your feelings and trained by school. But what we need to do is to retrain our soul, which, again consists of our mind our will and our emotions, and we need to teach our soul to obey God and to think in agreement with the Word of God.

So, that’s what the difference is between the spirit, the soul and the body. Now, the spirit, God gives us a brand new spirit. The day we receive Jesus Christ, our spirit is brand new and it’s going to spend eternity with God in heaven and it’s perfect. Our soul is not changed right away. We change it as we change our thinking and make sure that our thinking is in alignment with God’s Word. And then our body doesn’t change until we get to heaven.

Now, our body can improve while we’re on this earth by taking care of our body. It’s the temple of the Holy Spirit. But God’s going to give us a new body when we get to heaven. The spirit is that part of you that has intimate fellowship with God and your spirit is born again according to John 3:3. It’s made brand-new the moment that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. That spirit is perfect. It’s holy. It’s clean and it’s made just like the image of God Himself. Our spirit gets born again. And then our soul gets renewed, gets changed by the Word of God. And we’ll be given a new body when we go to heaven. Or at the transfiguration in the twinkling of an eye...

 

[Edward]

John 3:4-8
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Karl]

Your scriptures have not explained what died in Adam, don't you see that? The scriptures you gave do not say "This or that died in Adam on the day of his first sin". John 4:24 and Ephesians 3:1 do not even mention Adam at all. God is spirit, according to John 4:24. It is a non sequitur to claim that this means Adam's spirit died. I may as well say "God is Spirit, so I will have to eat sausage for dinner tonight." You conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Likewise with Ephesians 3. Paul says that the mystery was made known to him by the Spirit...So Adam's spirit died? What? How does that follow?

I am answering your other question here, and explaining why I don't like the question:
What "In Us" needs to be born again? I dislike the question, because of the assumptions you bring when you ask it that way. You ASSUME that something has died in us, so that Something needs to be born again. I assume you mean the spirit. I disagree with that. What needs to be born again is us. In Greek the word is anothen, and it means "from above, all over again". The feeling I get is "once again, from the top". It is as if you completely erased a chalkboard (from the top down) and rewrote EVERYTHING that you had previously written there. The "part" of us that needs to be born again is "all of us", every part. Do you see why I don't like the question?

Okay Tim, we are just going around and around in circles, you are basically saying nothing died in Adam the day he rebelled, ...consider this, in so doing you are repeating what the devil said to Eve, "You will surely not die."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in following your logic in explaining away all the Scripture I have given, then in your thinking there must be no damnation, that means there is no need for God's justification and redemption, which takes away our humanness and reduces us to members of the animal kingdom, which is the current philosophy of the world today, which translates to there is no need of God in our lives, and like the animals it is not possible or necessary to have a intimate relationship with God and that means Jesus' death on the Cross was a useless waste of time and energy.


Bro, I don't get that from reading my Bible.

 

[TimothyW]

Okay Tim, we are just going around and around in circles, you are basically saying nothing died in Adam the day he rebelled, ...consider this, in so doing you are repeating what the devil said to Eve, "You will surely not die."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in following your logic in explaining away all the Scripture I have given, then in your thinking there must be no damnation, that means there is no need for God's justification and redemption, which takes away our humanness and reduces us to members of the animal kingdom, which is the current philosophy of the world today, which translates to there is no need of God in our lives, and like the animals it is not possible or necessary to have a intimate relationship with God and that means Jesus' death on the Cross was a useless waste of time and energy.


Bro, I don't get that from reading my Bible.

I am NOT repeating what the serpent said to Eve. Can you see that I am not? Why would you say such a thing to me? I Believe that Adam did die, as a result of sin. Adam just didn't die that day. He died on a different day. This is according the Bible. How is that repeating the lie of Satan? In my opinion, the doctrine that says that people never really die is repeating the lie of Satan, the Serpent in the Garden.

I also don't know where you got the idea that in my thinking there "Must be No damnation" and "there is no need for God's justification and redemption". That is the exact opposite of what I believe, and the exact opposite of what I have been saying.

How do you get that I think that Jesus' death on the cross was a useless waste of time and energy, when I believe that His Death is absolutely essential as a substitute for the death we owe as a result of our sins?

 

[smaller]

Interesting.

What if death was the end of sin? I mean, without death, sin would reign for eternity within the very fiber of humanity.
You know what else in interesting? Why is death thrown into the lake of fire?

Death is a 'power.' Not a 'sin.'

And yes, to pass from the flesh is to cease from sin:

Romans 6:
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We as believers are to 'account' or 'reckon' ourselves in the flesh in this way until it's a final reality, realized after passing from this present life in the flesh, fleeting as it is.

 

[Edward]

Death is a 'power.' Not a 'sin.'

And yes, to pass from the flesh is to cease from sin:

Romans 6:
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We as believers are to 'account' or 'reckon' ourselves in the flesh in this way until it's a final reality, realized after passing from this present life in the flesh, fleeting as it is.

Death is a power, or it wouldn't say that death will be thrown into the LoF.

In pondering this when did Adam die thing, I have to ask, who's clock are you using, Earth's or God's? One day with the Lord is a 1000 years to us, so if God said Adam would die today (and Adam lived 930 years...) then he did die that 'today'. It fits.

God spoke in both context's of time in scripture. One has to be careful and remember to consider whose clock?
When God speaks of 'soon' in scripture, it's always God's clock and could mean years away.

 

[Karl]

I am NOT repeating what the serpent said to Eve. Can you see that I am not? Why would you say such a thing to me? I Believe that Adam did die, as a result of sin. Adam just didn't die that day. He died on a different day. This is according the Bible. How is that repeating the lie of Satan? In my opinion, the doctrine that says that people never really die is repeating the lie of Satan, the Serpent in the Garden.

I also don't know where you got the idea that in my thinking there "Must be No damnation" and "there is no need for God's justification and redemption". That is the exact opposite of what I believe, and the exact opposite of what I have been saying.

How do you get that I think that Jesus' death on the cross was a useless waste of time and energy, when I believe that His Death is absolutely essential as a substitute for the death we owe as a result of our sins?

Tim, bro, slow down, you are misunderstanding some of what I said, ...look what I have high lighted in your reply, ...that is what you said and have been saying since the beginning of this discussion, is it not?

You are saying nothing died in Adam the day he rebelled, ...correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, does your Bible say this?

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17

And a day is a day, God said within 24 hours you will die, ...God did not say Adam's punishment/judgement would be 930 years later, ...a-day-is-a-day.

So when you say he didn't die the day he rebelled, you are repeating what satan said, "You will surely not die," ...do you see that, ...what is the difference between what satan said and what you are saying?

God said the day he eats of it he will die, satan said the day he eats of it he will not die, ...see the difference, ...it's a battle of words and philosophies between God and satan and our minds are the battlefield.


Okay, I asked you to correct me if I'm wrong, ...but what you say I'm assuming, Adam's spirit died the day he rebelled, is not an assumption, it's Biblical Truth, whether you want to believe/receive it or not, just because it doesn't say it in Genesis 2:17 we find the doctrine through the Bible, Genesis is the beginning of the story, as more revelation was given by God throughout the ages it becomes clear as to what died in Adam and what is dead in us, ...I have given you many Scriptures that speak of the revelation God has given us, but you explain them away with how you interpret them, ...we can't do that,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:20

So then, the logical conclusion of if Adam's spirit did not die the day he rebelled is, ...there is no damnation, no damnation no judgement, no judgement then Jesus wasted His time,

...but you said you do not think/believe that way, so now you need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you 1 John 2:27 what did die the day Adam rebelled, I can't teach you, I can only show you Scriptures that will teach you, ...if you will receive them from the Lord,

...you were taught by some man, you didn't not receive that from the Holy Spirit, whether it was someone else or yourself, that Adam didn't die the day he rebelled, that is why Jesus said be careful of what you hear Mark 4:24, we all make this mistake and think we can teach ourselves through diligent study, without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but we always come up with a wrong interpretation, that's just the way it is because our fleshly/carnal mind is dead to the things of God,

...I'm trying to help you brother.

 

[smaller]

Death is a power, or it wouldn't say that death will be thrown into the LoF.

Indeed. There are many powers. Death is but one, and the last stated enemy of God to be destroyed.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

In pondering this when did Adam die thing, I have to ask, who's clock are you using, Earth's or God's? One day with the Lord is a 1000 years to us, so if God said Adam would die today (and Adam lived 930 years...) then he did die that 'today'. It fits.

Technically speaking Adam died the instant God spoke blessings upon him, ala Mark 4:15. What Jesus showed us happens where God's Word is sown did for no uncertain fact happen 'within' Adam.

If you understand this 'principle' there is no way any of us should look upon Adam as just Adam from that point forward.

God spoke in both context's of time in scripture. One has to be careful and remember to consider whose clock?
When God speaks of 'soon' in scripture, it's always God's clock and could mean years away.

I generally agree. There are many 'times' and 'timelines' that differ throughout the text. Technically speaking we all abide in the 'last (6th) day' of Adam, the flesh or natural man, on our way to our eventual '7th' day Sabbath as spiritual men (generically applied term.)

 

[Karl]

Death is a power, or it wouldn't say that death will be thrown into the LoF.

In pondering this when did Adam die thing, I have to ask, who's clock are you using, Earth's or God's? One day with the Lord is a 1000 years to us, so if God said Adam would die today (and Adam lived 930 years...) then he did die that 'today'. It fits.

God spoke in both context's of time in scripture. One has to be careful and remember to consider whose clock?
When God speaks of 'soon' in scripture, it's always God's clock and could mean years away.

Okay bro, was the creation account in Genesis six days or 6,000 years?

let's look at what you have said,

With God a day is like 1,000 years, ...the word in the Greek for God is kurios - Lord, notice Peter was not inspired by the Holy Spirit to use the word anthropos - man, ...and we find the word as in the text, that means it is a simile for us to understand what time is like for God who exists and lives outside of time, ...1,000 years seems like a day to God, but to you and me a day is 24 hours, ...and it seems they are getting shorter, but that's a whole 'nother study .

Then we have the problem with third day creation, if those days were 1,000 years long, plant life can't live without light and if there wasn't any light then they died and that means death was introduced into the world before Adam rebelled.

But more important, very quickly, a careful study of the meaning of the word ereb - evening is chaos, the meaning of the word boqer - morning is order, so the creation account of the 6 days is from chaos to order, chaos to order, building on each other until the 7th day when God rested with the then known world in perfect order, so the signification of the usage of the words ereb and boqer eliminate any thought of disorder until Adam rebelled, if the days were 1,000 years then the death of plants in the third 1,000 years introduced sin, chaos into the creation instead of Adam, so that means we have to erase where God said it is good after the third day, ...how does that coincide with Scripture?

 

[TimothyW]

Tim, bro, slow down, you are misunderstanding some of what I said, ...look what I have high lighted in your reply, ...that is what you said and have been saying since the beginning of this discussion, is it not?

You are saying nothing died in Adam the day he rebelled, ...correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, does your Bible say this?

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17

And a day is a day, God said within 24 hours you will die, ...God did not say Adam's punishment/judgement would be 930 years later, ...a-day-is-a-day.

So when you say he didn't die the day he rebelled, you are repeating what satan said, "You will surely not die," ...do you see that, ...what is the difference between what satan said and what you are saying?

God said the day he eats of it he will die, satan said the day he eats of it he will not die, ...see the difference, ...it's a battle of words and philosophies between God and satan and our minds are the battlefield.


Okay, I asked you to correct me if I'm wrong, ...but what you say I'm assuming, Adam's spirit died the day he rebelled, is not an assumption, it's Biblical Truth, whether you want to believe/receive it or not, just because it doesn't say it in Genesis 2:17 we find the doctrine through the Bible, Genesis is the beginning of the story, as more revelation was given by God throughout the ages it becomes clear as to what died in Adam and what is dead in us, ...I have given you many Scriptures that speak of the revelation God has given us, but you explain them away with how you interpret them, ...we can't do that,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:20

So then, the logical conclusion of if Adam's spirit did not die the day he rebelled is, ...there is no damnation, no damnation no judgement, no judgement then Jesus wasted His time,

...but you said you do not think/believe that way, so now you need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you 1 John 2:27 what did die the day Adam rebelled, I can't teach you, I can only show you Scriptures that will teach you, ...if you will receive them from the Lord,

...you were taught by some man, you didn't not receive that from the Holy Spirit, whether it was someone else or yourself, that Adam didn't die the day he rebelled, that is why Jesus said be careful of what you hear Mark 4:24, we all make this mistake and think we can teach ourselves through diligent study, without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but we always come up with a wrong interpretation, that's just the way it is because our fleshly/carnal mind is dead to the things of God,

...I'm trying to help you brother.

Genesis 2:17 in my Bible says:
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eatd of it you shall surely die.”
and the footnote says "Or when you eat"

It doesn't say that Adam will die that very day. And I know that you want to think otherwise, but this is very different from what the serpent said, who claim that Adam wouldn't die at all. There is a life and death difference between dying someday (as God said "dying - you will die") and never dying (as the serpent said "surely you will not die").

Why don't you ask the Holy Spirit what died in Adam that day? Search the scriptures, as I did, looking for the scripture that says what died in Adam that day. Then post the scripture here, if it exists, that says Adam's Spirit died on the day he ate the fruit. I didn't find ANY scripture that says that Adam died that day. 1 John 2:27 does not say that something died in Adam that day. As you say "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation". Don't tell me your interpretation of what scripture must mean. Tell me specifically what the scriptures SAY. There isn't any scripture that says that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit. Scripture DOES say that Adam died many years later. That is what I believe.

There is ample evidence in the Bible that Adam did not die the same day that he ate the fruit. The most compelling evidence for me is Genesis 5:5 which tells how old Adam was when he died, and how many years he LIVED. "ALL of the days that Adam lived were 912 years, and he died."

 

[Edward]

Okay bro, was the creation account in Genesis six days or 6,000 years?

let's look at what you have said,

With God a day is like 1,000 years, ...the word in the Greek for God is kurios - Lord, notice Peter was not inspired by the Holy Spirit to use the word anthropos - man, ...and we find the word as in the text, that means it is a simile for us to understand what time is like for God who exists and lives outside of time, ...1,000 years seems like a day to God, but to you and me a day is 24 hours, ...and it seems they are getting shorter, but that's a whole 'nother study .

Then we have the problem with third day creation, if those days were 1,000 years long, plant life can't live without light and if there wasn't any light then they died and that means death was introduced into the world before Adam rebelled.

But more important, very quickly, a careful study of the meaning of the word ereb - evening is chaos, the meaning of the word boqer - morning is order, so the creation account of the 6 days is from chaos to order, chaos to order, building on each other until the 7th day when God rested with the then known world in perfect order, so the signification of the usage of the words ereb and boqer eliminate any thought of disorder until Adam rebelled, if the days were 1,000 years then the death of plants in the third 1,000 years introduced sin, chaos into the creation instead of Adam, so that means we have to erase where God said it is good after the third day, ...how does that coincide with Scripture?

Well, with all of that...and the evening and the morning were the first/second day etc., I would say that it was 6 24 hour earth days. But out in the cosmos it was probably like moving in fast forward compared to Earth. We've all heard thwe story of sending one of two twins into space, and when he returns he will be younger than his brother. It's along those lines...

You're postulating that the plants could not survive in the presence of God? He's light too bro, and was on the scene. You're twisting the scripture and do not have a proper perspective of the power of God, and how little we really understand it. You're presuming that you know Gods ways and means? Wow bro, my hat's off to you then. I wasn't there when He hung the stars in the sky, so I have no clue on some of it. But I bet if He explained it, that we would both understand.

There's a way that this all fits together, the earth does appear old. He did something and we just don't get it. What we need to do is to, humble ourselves just a bit in the face of His creation, and consider the possibility...that we're just ignorant of the details of the mechanics of how He created the heavens and the earth, and be willing to be open to possibilities which will all come in time. Some quirk of space-time allowed the earth to appear the way it does.

2 Peter 3:5
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:/

We have to make a foundation on which to build understanding. This would have to be the Word of God, as immutable.

The flood had a big impact on the earth too. It prolly happened then, all the fossils were laid at that time I think.

 

[Karl]

Well, with all of that...and the evening and the morning were the first/second day etc., I would say that it was 6 24 hour earth days. But out in the cosmos it was probably like moving in fast forward compared to Earth. We've all heard thwe story of sending one of two twins into space, and when he returns he will be younger than his brother. It's along those lines...

You're postulating that the plants could not survive in the presence of God? He's light too bro, and was on the scene. You're twisting the scripture and do not have a proper perspective of the power of God, and how little we really understand it. You're presuming that you know Gods ways and means? Wow bro, my hat's off to you then. I wasn't there when He hung the stars in the sky, so I have no clue on some of it. But I bet if He explained it, that we would both understand.

There's a way that this all fits together, the earth does appear old. He did something and we just don't get it. What we need to do is to, humble ourselves just a bit in the face of His creation, and consider the possibility...that we're just ignorant of the details of the mechanics of how He created the heavens and the earth, and be willing to be open to possibilities which will all come in time. Some quirk of space-time allowed the earth to appear the way it does.

2 Peter 3:5
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:/

We have to make a foundation on which to build understanding. This would have to be the Word of God, as immutable.

The flood had a big impact on the earth too. It prolly happened then, all the fossils were laid at that time I think.

Yes, at the time of Adam light was much faster, light generated by a star or sun travels at the speed of light, which can be measured in time, time is a physical property in that to have time it must have mass, if it is a physical property then it is subject to entropy, hence time today is slower than in the time of Adam.

If you will look up the word light in Gen 1:3 you will find it is a different word than the word used for light in Gen 1:14, the first is a reference to light the second is a reference to the object that gives off the light, ...this is very easy to understand because we have the proof in our own lives, I can remember vividly the day light (Gen 1:3) shone into my darkened soul to illuminate and reveal to me (and that is the only way the Holy Spirit teaches us, by Divine revelation) that Jesus was God, and I'm sure it was the same for you and every other truly born again child of God, ...it wasn't sun light it was Divine light.

Yes God could of supernaturally kept plant life alive for 500 years, but what is the purpose, just to prove those that don't believe in the Creation account are correct? I don't think so, my Bible teaches the devil is the author of confusion.

Sunlight provides energy and heat for plant life, which they use to produce glucose to stay alive, again why would God hold plant life in suspended animation when He didn't do that for the other days of creation, what would be His purpose?

Genesis I is not only a account of physical/material creation, but it is also a spiritual account of natural man's condition and how the Father draws man to Jesus Christ for salvation, the spiritual signification of day four of Creation, the sun and the moon, represents our walk as believers, just like the moon does not produce light, it only reflects the light the sun shines on it, so are we to reflect the light the Son shines on us. Matt 5:14 So if it is determined for us to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, and a day is 1,000 years I don't think we are going to make it, do you, and if that were true then God is unjust because He said man's years would only be 120 and that changed to 70, ...do you see how many reasons, both physical and spiritual, that a day can't be 1,000 years in the Creation account?

And yes the earth is old, how old we don't know, Scripture tells us so, Gen 1:2, Is 45:18 and Rev 2:13, but Creation started 6,000 years ago.

 

[Karl]

Genesis 2:17 in my Bible says:
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eatd of it you shall surely die.”
and the footnote says "Or when you eat"

It doesn't say that Adam will die that very day. And I know that you want to think otherwise, but this is very different from what the serpent said, who claim that Adam wouldn't die at all. There is a life and death difference between dying someday (as God said "dying - you will die") and never dying (as the serpent said "surely you will not die").

Why don't you ask the Holy Spirit what died in Adam that day? Search the scriptures, as I did, looking for the scripture that says what died in Adam that day. Then post the scripture here, if it exists, that says Adam's Spirit died on the day he ate the fruit. I didn't find ANY scripture that says that Adam died that day. 1 John 2:27 does not say that something died in Adam that day. As you say "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation". Don't tell me your interpretation of what scripture must mean. Tell me specifically what the scriptures SAY. There isn't any scripture that says that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit. Scripture DOES say that Adam died many years later. That is what I believe.

There is ample evidence in the Bible that Adam did not die the same day that he ate the fruit. The most compelling evidence for me is Genesis 5:5 which tells how old Adam was when he died, and how many years he LIVED. "ALL of the days that Adam lived were 912 years, and he died."

The day you eat or when you eat, what's the difference, look at what you are implying, ...Adam was munching on the fruit for 930 years, then he died, ...when did he have his conversation with God, when were the curses pronounced, when was the animal killed for clothing, when were they evicted from the Garden, when were Cain, Abel and Seth and the other hundreds of children born, if he was eating the fruit for 930 years to logically fit in to him dying the day or when he ate of it in his 930th year?

You are mistaken in saying what God said about dying and what the serpent said about dying are not the same,

But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it: forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191 Gen 2:17

And the serpentH5175 saidH559 untoH413 the woman,H802 Ye shall notH3808 surely die:H4191 H4191 Gen 3:4

Looks like the same thing to me, what do you think, ...so if you are mistaken in your understanding of that, is it possible you are mistaken as to what died in Adam too?