[_ Old Earth _] Is Evolution 'Bats'?

[Barbarian]

Evolution is basically a religious philosophy.

Evolution is a pheomenon. Evolutionary theory is a scientific theory that explains it.

We in creation ministries are explaining to people that both creation and evolution are religious views of life upon which people build their particular models of philosophy, science or history.

If your message depends on promoting a dishonesty, what good is it? God is truth; you can't serve Him by lying.

The issue, therefore, is not science versus religion, but religion versus religion (the science of one religion versus the science of another religion.)

I have never understood why creationists are so defensive about religious belief that the worst thing they can say about science is that it is a religion. There is nothing wrong with faith; it just won't work for science.

Ask a scientist why he accepts evolutionary theory. If he says "Because Darwin said so", it's faith. If he starts citing evidence, it's science.

Evolutionists are working from the premise that the Bible is not the Word of God, nor can it ever be.

You've been lied to about that. Even Darwin suggested that God made the first living things.

They believe, no matter what the evidence, that there is no God.

Last poll of scientists I've seen shows about half of us believe in a personal God, and many others believe in other religions.

Evolution is a belief system about the past based on the words of men who were not there, but who are trying to explain how all the evidence of the present (that is, fossils, animals and plants etc) originated.

That's a little closer to the truth. Science explains the evidence.

Webster's Dictionary defines religion as follows: “...cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.†Surely, this is an apt description of evolution.

Or golf. You think golf is a religion? The Dallas Cowboys would be a religion by that measure.

Evolution is a belief system - a religion!"

Nice try. There's nothing wrong with religion. My life would be meaningless without my faith in Jesus. But it's foolish to think that science works that way.

 

[lordkalvan]

"Evolution is basically a religious philosophy. We in creation ministries are explaining to people that both creation and evolution are religious views of life upon which people build their particular models of philosophy, science or history. The issue, therefore, is not science versus religion, but religion versus religion (the science of one religion versus the science of another religion.)


Evolutionists are working from the premise that the Bible is not the Word of God, nor can it ever be. They believe, no matter what the evidence, that there is no God. These same people are most adamant that evolution is a fact.


Evolution is a belief system about the past based on the words of men who were not there, but who are trying to explain how all the evidence of the present (that is, fossils, animals and plants etc) originated.


Webster's Dictionary defines religion as follows: “...cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.†Surely, this is an apt description of evolution. Evolution is a belief system - a religion!"


Ken Ham - The Lie: Evolution

Quoting a misrepresentation of what evolutionary theory amounts to and what imaginary 'evolutionists' are working from in terms of the Bible (Francis Collins and Keith Miller presumably do not constitute Christians in Ham's narrow definition of the word) does not amount to anything more than an idiosyncratic opinion masquerading as reasoned argument.

 

[Ashua]

The beauty of this argument is that it is far from unique to bats. There are actually scores upon scores of species that seem to have little to no "evidence" for evolutionary descendent. Here are some more examples of "living fossils." (From Wikipedia)

Bacteria

Stromatolite, a layered structure created as sediment is trapped by shallow-water, oxygen-creating, blue-green bacteria

[edit] Plants
Ginkgos have not only existed on this planet for a long time, but also have a long life span as well, with some having reached the age of over 2,500 years. Six specimens have even been known to survive the A-bomb at Hiroshima, 1-2 km from ground zero; they still live there today.

Amborellaceae – a plant from New Caledonia, possibly closest to base of the flowering plants
Araucaria araucana – the Monkey Puzzle tree
Cycads
Ginkgo tree (Ginkgoaceae)
Horsetails – Equisetum (Equisetaceae)
Metasequoia – Dawn Redwood (Cupressaceae; a borderline example, related to Sequoia and Sequoiadendron)
Sciadopitys tree (Sciadopityaceae)
Liquidambar – tree (Altingiaceae)
Whisk ferns – Psilotum (Psilotaceae)
Welwitschia (Welwitschiaceae)
Wollemia tree (Araucariaceae – a borderline example, related to Agathis and Araucaria)

[edit] Fungi

Neolecta

[edit] Animals

Vertebrates
Mammals
Echidnas are one of few mammals to lay eggs.
Aardvark (Orycteropus afer)
Amami rabbit (Pentalagus furnessi)
Chevrotain (Tragulidae)
Cypriot mouse (Mus cypriacus)
Elephant shrew (Macroscelidea)
Koala (Phascolarctos cinereus)
Laotian Rock Rat (Laonastes aenigmamus)
Iriomote cat (Prionailurus iriomotensis)
Monito del Monte (Dromiciops gliroides)
monotremes (the platypus and echidna)
Okapi (Okapia johnstoni)[2]
Red Panda (Ailurus fulgens)
Giant Panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca)
Sumatran Rhinoceros (Dicerorhinus sumatrensis)
Birds
Hoatzin are born with two visible claws on their wings, but they fall out once they reach maturity.
Acanthisittidae (New Zealand "wrens") – 2 living species, a few more recently extinct. Distinct lineage of Passeriformes.
Broad-billed Sapayoa (Sapayoa aenigma) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Tyranni.
Bearded Reedling (Panurus biarmicus) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Passerida or Sylvioidea.
Coliiformes (mousebirds) – 6 living species in 2 genera. Distinct lineage of Neoaves.
Hoatzin (Ophisthocomus hoazin) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Neoaves.
Magpie Goose (Anseranas semipalmata) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Anseriformes.
Seriema (Cariamidae) – 2 living species. Distinct lineage Cariamae.
Andean Condor (Vultur gryphus) and California Condor (Gymnogyps californianus) is a two living members of the New World Vultures.
Reptiles
Crocodilians survived the K-T extinction that killed off the dinosaurs.
Alligator Snapping Turtle (Macrochelys temminckii)
Crocodilia (crocodiles, gavials and alligators)
Pig-nosed turtle
Snapping Turtle (Chelydra serpentina)
Tuatara (Sphenodon punctatus and Sphenodon guntheri)
Amphibians
Giant salamanders (Cryptobranchus, and Andrias)
Purple frog (Nasikabatrachus sahyadrensis)
Lampreys
Northern Brook Lamprey (Ichthyomyzon fossor)
Bony fish
Tuataras are neither lizard nor snake rather an ancient group of reptiles that exist in between, so in a sense it is the living link between the two.
Arowana and Arapaima (Osteoglossidae)
Bowfin (Amia calva)
Coelacanth (the lobed-finned Latimeria menadoensis and Latimeria chalumnae)
Queensland lungfish (Neoceratodus fosteri)
Sturgeons and Paddlefish (Acipenseriformes)
Bichir (Polypteridae) Family
Hagfish (Myxinidae) Family
Sharks
Blind shark (Brachaelurus waddi)
Bullhead shark (Heterodontus sp.)
Elephant shark (Callorhinchus milii)
Frilled shark (Chlamydoselachus sp.)
Goblin Shark (Mitsukurina owstoni)
Gulper Shark (Centrophorus sp.)
Invertebrates
Insects
The coelacanth was thought to have gone extinct 65 million years ago, until an intact specimen was discovered in 1938.
Mantophasmatodea (gladiators; a few living species)
Mymarommatid wasps (10 living species in genus Palaeomymar)
Nevrorthidae (3 species-poor genera)
Notiothauma reedi (a scorpionfly relative)
Orussidae (parasitic wood wasps; about 70 living species in 16 genera)
Peloridiidae (peloridiid bugs; fewer than 30 living species in 13 genera)
Sikhotealinia zhiltzovae (a jurodid beetle)
Syntexis libocedrii (Anaxyelidae cedar wood wasp)
Crustaceans
Nautilus still retain the external, spiral shell that its other relatives have lost.
Glypheoidea (2 living species: Neoglyphea inopinata and Laurentaeglyphea neocaledonica)
Stomatopods (mantis shrimp)
Triops cancriformis (also known as tadpole shrimp; a notostracan crustacean)
Molluscs
Nautilina (e.g. Nautilus pompilius)
Neopilina galateae, a monoplacophoran
Ennucula superba – nut clam
Vampyroteuthis infernalis – Vampire Squid
Other invertebrates
crinoids
With little change over the last 450 million years, the horseshoe crab shows a strong resemblance to the extinct trilobites that roamed ancient earth, thus making the horseshoe crab appear as a living fossil.
Horseshoe crabs (only 4 living species of the class Xiphosura, family Limulidae: Limulus polyphemus,Tachypleus gigas, Tachypleus tridentatus and Carcinoscorpius rotundicauda)
Lingula anatina (an inarticulate brachiopod)
Liphistiidae (trapdoor spiders)
Onychophorans
Valdiviathyris quenstedti (a craniforman brachiopod)
Paleodictyon (unknown)

 

[lordkalvan]

The beauty of this argument is that it is far from unique to bats. There are actually scores upon scores of species that seem to have little to no "evidence" for evolutionary descendent. Here are some more examples of "living fossils." (From Wikipedia)....

And why, exactly, do you regard any of these organisms as displaying 'no "evidence" for evolutionary descendent'? Simply posting a long list together with an unsupported claim does not a persuasive claim make. There is quite extensive information on the evolutionary history of crocodilia, for example (over 20,000 references in Google Scholar) - one of the animals that appears on your list as a candidate for the inability of evolutionary science to explain its existence.

 

[Ashua]

Given that it is a quantitative support for the argument suggested in the op, I don't think I need to waste time explaining to you the purpose of living fossils in this thread. If evolution were a "fact" you would expect to see it across the board, hence uniformitarianism.

 

[jasoncran]

visit florida where golfing is indeed a religion.

 

[lordkalvan]

Given that it is a quantitative support for the argument suggested in the op, I don't think I need to waste time explaining to you the purpose of living fossils in this thread.

Eh, no it isn't and, yes you do. All you've given us is a long list and some unsupported assertions to go with it. It is no more 'quantitative support' against evolutionary theory than a long list of allegedly imaginary deities is 'quantitative support' for the idea that the Christian God is mythological.

ETA From the Wiki article on 'living fossils' (my bolding):

Note that just because a living fossil is a surviving representative of an archaic lineage does not necessarily require that it retains all of the "primitive" features (plesiomorphies) of the lineage it is descended from; that is, they may possess one to many derived features (autapomorphies), that have evolved since the time of their lineage's divergence. All that is required is that they can be unambiguously assigned to an otherwise extinct lineage (rarely are they identical to the fossil forms). See for example the uniquely and highly autapomorphic oxpeckers, which are not "true" living fossils (as no fossils are known yet) but nonetheless appear to be the only survivors of an ancient lineage related to starlings and mockingbirds.

Source: http://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil

If evolution were a "fact" you would expect to see it across the board, hence uniformitarianism.

What evidence do you have that we do not see evolution 'across the board' and why do you imagine that this has something to do with uniformitarianism, a concept that underpinned early ideas about geological processes but no longer strictly held to by geologists?

 

[Barbarian]

The beauty of this argument is that it is far from unique to bats. There are actually scores upon scores of species that seem to have little to no "evidence" for evolutionary descendent. Here are some more examples of "living fossils." (From Wikipedia)

Well, let's take a look...

Bacteria

You have fossil bacteria with periplasmic spaces? I don't think so. Next:

Stromatolite, a layered structure created as sediment is trapped by shallow-water, oxygen-creating, blue-green bacteria

Stromatolites are forming today; cyanobacteria are very ancient. But their descendants have evolved quite a number of things. Some have become endosymbionts we call chloroplasts. Others have become non-colonial and evolved new structures like trichomes.

Ginkgos have not only existed on this planet for a long time

The two identified fossil species, G. adiantoides) and G. gardneri are similar to, but not the same as G. bilboa, the modern species.

Point taken? Your first few examples turned out to be non-examples. If any of the ones I dropped from your list mean anything to you, name them, and I'll check.

Vertebrates
Mammals
Echidnas are one of few mammals to lay eggs.

Which species of echidna do you think is ancient? There are a number of fossil echidnas, in several genera, but I'm not aware of a fossil of any of the modern ones. Tell us about it.

Aardvark (Orycteropus afer)

You have a fossil of this species? Can you link to it?

Again, since the first few didn't make the cut, can you pick one or two you're sure won't turn out to be failures, and tell us which ones?

Crocodilians survived the K-T extinction that killed off the dinosaurs.

Which modern species of crocodile is also found as a fossil?

Do us all a favor, and include more than a simple claim. Present some evidence that these species are found in the fossil record.

Coelacanth (the lobed-finned Latimeria menadoensis and Latimeria chalumnae)

Neither of these species are found in the fossil record. They are much larger than most fossil coelacanths, are deep marine species, (ancient ones were fresh-water fish) and again, no fossils of them.

If you have any evidence, get it together, and try again.

 

[Barbarian]

Given that it is a quantitative support for the argument suggested in the op, I don't think I need to waste time explaining to you the purpose of living fossils in this thread.

Perhaps you don't know what "living fossil" means. It does not mean "hasn't evolved for many millions of years."

Darwin's theory predicted evolutionary stasis, BTW. As Darwin pointed out, a well-adapted organism, in an essentially unchanging environment would be prevented from evolving by natural selection. That is called "stabilizing selection."

But many millions of years is a long time. I can't think of a species that would be a hundred million years old, maybe none 20 million years old.

If evolution were a "fact" you would expect to see it across the board, hence uniformitarianism.

That's not what "uniformitarianism" means.