IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[GodsGrace]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?




Tulipbee

 

[Tenchi]

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?

In a soft-libertarian sense, yes.

 

[Iconoclast]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. Man had a self will that was untested, an original righteousness.
God is not free to sin, neither was man. Man being mutable was however able to sin, which he did.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

Most do not believe "free will" as it is commonly used exists, but they discuss the philosophical term because it has a common use in the minds of the ungodly. The more solid reformed dispute that it exists.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this

Not at all. The fall into sin and death placed Adam and all men into bondage as Jesus spoke of it in Jn.8.
Total depravity exists no matter how you slice the pie. The same for the U.L.I.P.

.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

Nothing is going to destroy the truth of God, which gets summarized by Tulip. Never has, never will.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?

No as it does not exist. We do have a self will that makes choices based upon our sin nature which suppresses the truth of God.

Tulipbee

 

[GodsGrace]

In a soft-libertarian sense, yes.

Why soft?

 

[GodsGrace]

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. Man had a self will that was untested, an original righteousness.
God is not free to sin, neither was man. Man being mutable was however able to sin, which he did.

For those reading along...
Could you say why God is not free to sin?

Most do not believe "free will" as it is commonly used exists, but they discuss the philosophical term because it has a common use in the minds of the ungodly. The more solid reformed dispute that it exists.

That could be. I think most persons believe that when they choose to sin or not sin they're making a choice and they believe THEY are making that choice and so have free will.

Not at all. The fall into sin and death placed Adam and all men into bondage as Jesus spoke of it in Jn.8.
Total depravity exists no matter how you slice the pie. The same for the U.L.I.P.

We're going to discuss free will here.
Not total depravity.
I know that each acronym runs into another - that's the way with TULIP....
But let's see if we could keep to free will.

Nothing is going to destroy the truth of God, which gets summarized by Tulip. Never has, never will.

If free will exists....TULIP is finished.
We'll see what others believe the truth to be.
It seems to me that all of Christianity believes in free will.

Matthew 4:16-17
16“THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT,
AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH,
UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED.”

17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
The above states that a light had dawned on those that were sitting in darkness.
Jesus taught this:
REPENT, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Jesus taught those persons in the darkness to repent.
Why would Jesus order them to do something He knew they could not do (because they had no free will according to you).

No as it does not exist. We do have a self will that makes choices based upon our sin nature which suppresses the truth of God.

But God is angry with those that suppress the truth.
We're told by Paul that every man can know God and will be without excuse because of this - because he has suppressed the truth.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


If God is angry with those that suppress the truth, it means those men had the ability to accept Him but denied Him. It means they had free will.
OR
It would mean God is not a just God if He was angry with those that suppress the truth if they did NOT have the ability to CHOOSE.



Please remember that you're in Apologetics.

 

[JLB]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?




Tulipbee

Yes of course, mankind was created in the image and likeness of God.


It would be ridiculous to think that mankind doesn’t have the ability to choose…

Whether to serve and obey the LORD or not.






JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes of course, mankind was created in the image and likeness of God.


It would be ridiculous to think that mankind doesn’t have the ability to choose…

Whether to serve and obey the LORD or not.






JLB

Agreed.

Why would God's word tell us to obey Him,
IF He knows it's up to His decree to either make us obey or not?

Obviously we have free will.

 

[JLB]

Agreed.

Why would God's word tell us to obey Him,
IF He knows it's up to His decree to either make us obey or not?

Obviously we have free will.

Who in the world would teach otherwise?

Certainly not any Christians.



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

For those reading along...
Could you say why God is not free to sin?

John Brown Of Haddington

V. The holiness of God is that essential perfection of his nature, which lies in perfect freedom from, and hatred of all sin, and in perfect love to every thing holy and pure.—That God is infinitely holy appears,

1. From express declarations of Scripture, Josh 24:19; 1 Sam 2:2, Exod 15:11; Ps 89:35; Ps 11:7; Ps 99:9; Prov 30:3; Hab 1:12-13; Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8; John 17:11; Dan 9:24; Ps 16:10; Acts 3:14; Rom 1:4; Luke 1:35.
Nay, holiness is represented as his beauty, Exod 15:11; Ps 27:4; his grandeur, Ps 89:35. Amos 4:2; and more than forty times he is called the Holy One of Israel or Jacob, Hab 3:3; Hab 1:12; Isa 1:4,10,20; Isa 43:14; Isa 29:23, etc.

 

[Tulipbee]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?




Tulipbee

Ah, GodsGrace, the divine diplomat orchestrating a celestial symphony of theological discourse! Let's dance through the cosmic corridors of Calvinism and untangle the mystery of free will, like a divine jig in the Garden of Eden.
Now, you've got this idea that free will took a cosmic vacation post-Fall, and the Reformed crew is holding onto this notion like the last slice of celestial pizza. But, let me be your comedic guide to Calvinism, where free will might just be hiding behind the tulips.
Imagine God creating man, endowing him with a cosmic goodie bag – infused knowledge, immortality, and a sin-free nature. It's like a divine care package, but oops, it took a nosedive after the Fall. Now, Reformed buddies argue that free will joined the cosmic casualty list.
But here's the divine plot twist – in the divine comedy of TULIP, free will might just be the unexpected hero. Picture this: we face moral choices all day, like choosing between angelic hymns and the devil's dance playlist. Do we have the celestial freedom to make these choices? Drumroll, please... YES!
You see, GodsGrace, Calvinism isn't necessarily the free will buzzkill. It's more like a cosmic dance floor where free will shows off its moves amidst the tulips. TULIP can keep grooving, and free will can still break it down in the divine disco of choices.
So, my cosmic companion, let's twirl through the tulips of theology, embracing the notion that free will might just be the unsung hero in the TULIP dance-off. It's a divine comedy, and in this celestial sitcom, free will still gets to flex its moral muscles.

 

[Hopeful 2]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?
Tulipbee

Does God have free will ?
Of course He does.
Were we made in the image of God ?
Of course we were. (Gen 1:26-27)
If God has free will, then so do we.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
2. Every thing relating to God is called holy, on account of its connection with and conformity to him;
—as the manhood of his Son, Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27,30
—his name, Ps 111:9; Lev 20:3;
—his arm or power, Ps 98:1;
—the place where he manifests himself;
—heaven or the temple, Ps 20:6; Isa 57:15; Jon 2:4; Ps 99:9; Exod 3:4; Rev 21:10;
—his Sabbaths, Exod 16:23; Isa 58:13;
—his covenant and promise, Dan 11:28,30; Luke 1:72; Ps 105:42;
—his word, law, and gospel, Rom 1:2; Rom 7:12; 2 Tim 3:15;
—his work, Ps 145:17;—his angels, Rev 14:10; Matt 25:31;
—his prophets, 2 Pet 1:21; 2 Pet 3:2; Luke 1:70; Rev 18:20; Rev 22:6;
—his ministers, 1 Thess 2:10; Rev 18:20;
—his people, Exod 19:6; Col 1:22; Col 3:12; Heb 3:1; 1 Thess 5:27; 1 Pet 2:9.

 

[Iconoclast]

Does God have free will ?

no

Of course He does

no He does not

Were we made in the image of God ?

yes

Of course we were. (Gen 1:26-27)
If God has free will, then so do we.

God does not have free will so we do not either

 

[Riven]

If God knows all, then He also knows where we will end up after death before we are even conceived. This would mean we are being judged for actions we have yet to perform, choices we have yet to make, and so on.

If God's will cannot be altered by man, then it is logical to assume that our choices are not our own, we do not have free will, and that our final destination, be it heaven or hell, is predetermined.

 

[Tenchi]

Why soft?

I think, as a person makes free choices, the "momentum" of those choices accumulates in a particular direction that increasingly constrains the person's freedom to choose differently. Any addiction is an example of what I mean. The man who has become a drunkard did so through a series of choices, the accumulated force of which has carried him into bondage to alcohol. He did not begin in bondage to booze, but in freedom from its destructive power; his choices, however, to consume alcohol, as they are repeated, increasing limit his ability to choose not to drink.

There are, then, genuinely free choices we make, but as those choices are made, they set our will into a certain line of future choices from which it becomes increasingly difficult to extricate ourselves.

Jeremiah 13:23
23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

Jeremiah 18:11-12
11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."'
12 "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'

We harden into various patterns of thinking, desire and choices, for good or ill. It's just the way God has made humans to be. The longer we remain in a certain pattern, the more hardened into it we become and the less able we are to break free of it, or even to think about breaking free of it. I see this in Scripture and in stark evidence in the people around me (and in myself). Think Jezebel. Or Absalom. Or king Zedekiah. Or the Pharisees and scribes.

 

[Hopeful 2]

no

no He does not

yes

God does not have free will so we do not either

Do you really expect me to believe that the God who created everything didn't have the free will to make the sky blue instead of purple ?
Do you really expect me to believe that God didn't have the free will to create fish with gills to breath in the water ?
He made all things according to His will !

What could prevent the Lord's will from being accomplished ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

If God knows all, then He also knows where we will end up after death before we are even conceived. This would mean we are being judged for actions we have yet to perform, choices we have yet to make, and so on.

If God's will cannot be altered by man, then it is logical to assume that our choices are not our own, we do not have free will, and that our final destination, be it heaven or hell, is predetermined.

Knowledge of a circumstance's outcome doesn't translate into making that outcome happen.
God knows where I will spend eternity, but He hasn't caused me to choose where it will be.

 

[1pet2_9]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?




Tulipbee

This is the first I have heard that free will was lost at the fall, and I have been a member of reformed churches before. I do, however, think it obvious that that is not possible, since free will first was necessary in order for there to be a fall in the first place. I do not believe in predestination.

Also, you implied it was a given that man was gifted with an absence of sin nature from the beginning. I don't know that Scripture supports that. Again, were it not both for free will and a sin nature, would the fall have been possible? To illustrate: suppose we have a new gun--never been fired. Do guns--by their nature--kill? The gun has a nature; a purpose. Before it ever fires a shot.

 

[Riven]

Knowledge of a circumstance's outcome doesn't translate into making that outcome happen.
God knows where I will spend eternity, but He hasn't caused me to choose where it will be.

It does if you're God. He doesnt just have knowledge of where we'll spend eternity, but also knowledge of all the choices that will lead us there. Even knowing where we'll spend eternity seems a bit too much like pre-judgment to me.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It does if you're God. He doesnt just have knowledge of where we'll spend eternity, but also knowledge of all the choices that will lead us there. Even knowing where we'll spend eternity seems a bit too much like pre-judgment to me.

Look at it from the perspective of the wicked who will eventually foreswear wickedness.
Nobody knows where they may be in two years from now.
God may know where one will end up, but we don't know where even we will end up.