Is God exempt from his own laws?

[Destructus86]

So, I’m going to play devil’s advocate a little with thisone. I’m also curious what all of your opinions are on this. Hopefully we can all learn something fromthis discussion. J



We all know the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Killâ€

However, in the bible we see God kill all of humanity (saveone family) in the flood and then later we see him kill the first born of Egypt(which includes infants)



In the bible it teaches we are to live by example. Not “do as I say, not as I do.†Yet, at firstglance it appears God does not follow the laws he set before us. Could this be a contradiction? Or is He merely exempt from the rules setbefore us?



Let’s discuss this difficult topic in peace. Have fun!

 

[Drew]

I think the answer is "yes" - God is indeed "exempt" from His own laws. When God "kills" someone, I suggest we can coherently believe that this is something God is "forced" to do, in pursuit of some greater good.

Implicit in what I am saying is that God is not free to do anything He might "want" to do - He does operate under constraints. I can defend this view, if need be.

 

[WIP]

So, I’m going to play devil’s advocate a little with thisone. I’m also curious what all of your opinions are on this. Hopefully we can all learn something fromthis discussion. J



We all know the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Killâ€

However, in the bible we see God kill all of humanity (saveone family) in the flood and then later we see him kill the first born of Egypt(which includes infants)



In the bible it teaches we are to live by example. Not “do as I say, not as I do.†Yet, at firstglance it appears God does not follow the laws he set before us. Could this be a contradiction? Or is He merely exempt from the rules setbefore us?



Let’s discuss this difficult topic in peace. Have fun!

We must be very careful that we do not lower God to our standard but live to raise ourselves toward His. He created us, we didn't create Him. We belong to Him, He doesn't belong to us. He is our master, we are His servants.

The commandment to not kill is presented to us to show us where we fail to live up to His standard. We should be exceedingly glad that He didn't destroy us all during the flood or even after the fall in the garden when we rebelled for we deserved it. We had only one rule to follow and we failed. Thank God for Jesus Christ!

 

[Destructus86]

That's not quite on topic.

 

[Davies]

Destructus86,

The answer to the question is no, God is not exempt from His own law. Why do I know this? Because Jesus obeyed the law perfectly witnessed by that generation. Also, if God were exempt from His own law, then He would never have required His Son to be sacrificed in order for man to be redeemed. What's interesting about the sixth commandment is that after it was given, God instituted capitol punishment. Not only does God put to death every person that ever exhisted, besides maybe Noah or Elijah, but we know that our governments were ordained by God, and the government does not bear the sword for nothing. God is holy, so when He puts someone to death, He is righteous. He doesn't have to tell us the why of everything for our understanding.

Ezekiel 18:23

King James Version (KJV)


23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

If we have a problem with God killing anyone, then we have a real problem with God casting people in to Hell for an eternity to suffer what exceeds the imagination. I know many people do have a problem with the doctrine of Hell, but I believe it stems from the failure of recognizing God's holy nature or simply to trust God.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Destructus86,

I went on to read Ezekiel 18 and thought I would give you verse 25. Playing the devil's advocate, you posed the queston, if God was exempt from his own law which would suggest God is not equal, meaning God is not fair. It wouldn't be fair if God commands us to be obedient, yet He doesn't practice what He preaches. Unfair might describe God in that He doesn't have to save us, but He chose to take our sins upon Himself. Unfair is a great description of man because he never practices what he preaches, at least not in perfection.

Ezekiel 18:25
New King James Version (NKJV)

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?

- Davies

 

[Drew]

Destructus86,

The answer to the question is no, God is not exempt from His own law. Why do I know this? Because Jesus obeyed the law perfectly witnessed by that generation.

I disagree.

For one thing, Jesus instructed others that no foods were unclean. This is in clear violation of the Law of Moses.

And there are many other examples, not least Jesus "bypassing" the temple as the place, prescribed by the Law of Moses, where people go to be purified.

However, Jesus "broke" the Law of Moses specifically as a way of symnbolically declaring that its time of applicability was coming to an end.

 

[Davies]

Drew,

I'm not sure what passages you refer to, but here is one that's pretty clear:

Matthew 5:17-20

New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of the pharisees was self-righteousness. No man could ever have been considered righteous by keeping the law of Moses. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly. So, consider the example of Jesus as the perfect fulfillment of the law of Moses, every jot and every tittle.

- Davies

 

[WIP]

That's not quite on topic.

In what way? You asked for our opinion and I shared mine with you. In my opinion the question is irrational because the only way to resolve it is to lower God to our level of understanding and nature. Our relationship with God is not a democracy.

 

[smaller]

So, I’m going to play devil’s advocate a little with thisone. I’m also curious what all of your opinions are on this. Hopefully we can all learn something fromthis discussion. J

We all know the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Killâ€

However, in the bible we see God kill all of humanity (saveone family) in the flood and then later we see him kill the first born of Egypt(which includes infants)

In the bible it teaches we are to live by example. Not “do as I say, not as I do.†Yet, at firstglance it appears God does not follow the laws he set before us. Could this be a contradiction? Or is He merely exempt from the rules setbefore us?

Let’s discuss this difficult topic in peace. Have fun!

Perhaps the question should be asked, why man was subjected to death to begin with? God certainly could have made us all immortal in the flesh from the beginning, perhaps not even able or have to reproduce?

Gods full intentions were assuredly NOT to leave mankind in a wet pile of dust.

The timing and or ways of death is somewhat irrelevant.

God obviously fully intended to kill in the flesh everyone who has ever lived upon the planet earth inclusive of His Own Son. One doesn't have to be a theological genius to figure out what we all see with our own eyes.

So, what's your point again?

Oh, Laws. Yeah. God does maintain the right to measure good unto good, evil unto evil.

Perhaps we could even extend that line of reasoning to temporal unto temporal?

Death was passed to 'all mankind' in Adam, therefore that is eventually or sooner measured to us all. All are in fact death carriers. In physics they call it the law of thermodynamics, entropy. They're close.

So in death God might appear to be very orderly in accordance with the law of physics, and perhaps is 'merciful' to some in speeding up that process faster than in others.

s

 

[tig]

So, I’m going to play devil’s advocate a little with thisone. I’m also curious what all of your opinions are on this. Hopefully we can all learn something fromthis discussion. J



We all know the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Killâ€

However, in the bible we see God kill all of humanity (saveone family) in the flood and then later we see him kill the first born of Egypt(which includes infants)



In the bible it teaches we are to live by example. Not “do as I say, not as I do.†Yet, at firstglance it appears God does not follow the laws he set before us. Could this be a contradiction? Or is He merely exempt from the rules setbefore us?



Let’s discuss this difficult topic in peace. Have fun!

Good question! One that needs to be asked. I may be evil, but is the one that made me evil too? I use to be scared to death of God, but I did a little searching, and was surprise to find the answer a pretty simple one and revealed by JC.

Jesus said to the masses when they talk to God, to call him "Our Father".

Now the question you propose is: Is God exempt from his own laws? The unspoken question may be: And if he doesn't have to follow his own laws, is he unjust for it? The question has certainly crossed my mind.

The simple answer (methinks) can be phrased this way: Are our earthly parents exempt from their own rules? Do they stay out of the road? Do they stay away from hot stoves? And if they don't are they unjust for not staying out of the road or away from hot stoves?

The goal for getting near a hot stove for the parent is to feed the child, the goal of having a rule for the kid to stay away from the hot stove is to keep him from getting burned. So yes, the parent is just for not following the rule set for the child, imo.

Our Father has a reason for giving us a rule, and he has a reason for dishing out punishment for breaking rules. And according to Hebrews 12:10 Our heavenly father only chastens his children for their profit. So, if he kills, then it is to profit us. Fortunately, JC revealed that all live unto God. So any death experienced by us is very temporary and ultimately profits us greatly.

That is how God can be just by using the very tool he tells us not to use. We are children and cannot use the tool of death because we would use it unjustly because of our ignorance. God knows what we need, and because of his wisdom, coupled with the great love wherewhith he loves us, can use death as a means of enhancing the value of the free gift of eternal life he has given us all. A lesson in contrast. Experience death to know the value of being eternal.

O the depth of the riches of our Dad's wisdom and knowledge! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[Drew]

Drew,

I'm not sure what passages you refer to, ....

In Mark 7, Jesus overturns some of the Levitical food laws:

15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16["If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."] 17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Jesus really cannot be misunderstood here - he clearly states that all foods are clean. This cannot be reconciled with the Levitical food laws which clearly state some foods are unclean.

So this is what I mean by Jesus "breaking" the Law of Moses - He declares that it no longer needs to be followed.

I will get to the Matthew passage next.....

 

[Drew]

but here is one that's pretty clear:

Matthew 5:17-20

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

 

[Jam]

Obeying the commandments is the Israelites' side of the covenant that God made with them. God did not make this covenant with Himself, so why should He obey the others' "side" of the "deal", do you think?

Is it even sensical to ask if God is exempt from the Law? Given that He is the creator and arbiter of morality and the Law, is it even possible for Him to be under it?

---


I think this explains my point better than I have myself:

In my opinion the question is irrational because the only way to resolve it is to lower God to our level of understanding and nature. Our relationship with God is not a democracy.

 

[Drew]

Is it even sensical to ask if God is exempt from the Law? Given that He is the creator and arbiter of morality and the Law, is it even possible for Him to be under it?

I agree with this statement. And this is why we should not be shocked that Jesus, through carefully chosen symbolic actions, declared that the time of the Law of Moses was coming to an end through His own work.

 

[Drew]

I wish to make an assertion that is relevant to this topic. Many, perhaps most, read New Testament statements about Jesus being obedient and conclude that the referent - the thing that Jesus was obedient to - was the Law of Moses.

I think this is probably wrong and that the referent was really the covenant obligation of Israel to be the means of dealing with the problem of sin and death.

Jesus takes on this covenant role and faithfully executes it - this is what Paul means when he writes about Jesus being "obedient".

 

[mondar]

We all know the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill”
However, in the bible we see God kill all of humanity (saveone family) in the flood and then later we see him kill the first born of Egypt(which includes infants)



In the bible it teaches we are to live by example. Not “do as I say, not as I do.” Yet, at firstglance it appears God does not follow the laws he set before us. Could this be a contradiction? Or is He merely exempt from the rules setbefore us?

The commandment you refer to is not against all or any killing. It does not speak to Capitol punishment or to national defense in a just war.

So then, the answer to your question depends upon your view of man. Would you agree that all mankind is guilty by personal sin, and by being in Adam, and deserves death? The sentence of God upon Adam and his seed was death. Death came by the sin of Adam (see Romans 5:12).

I guess my own view is that God would be just in slaughtering the whole human race before birth. The fact that he allows us to take our first breath of air is grace. Whatever death God brings upon the human race is not "murder" but justice. It by the justice of God that men are slain.

Man has infinitely offended an infinite God. I do not see any unrighteousness in God if he slays us all. The shock is why would he save any of us? What is there to love in rebels like man? By his grace he does love us. The glory be to God for his love, and for his justice.

I do not agree with the thinking that we all deserve God's love. No, none of us deserve anything from God. Our next breath is by Gods grace.

 

[Davies]

"Is it even sensical to ask if God is exempt from the Law? Given that He is the creator and arbiter of morality and the Law, is it even possible for Him to be under it?" - Light

Galatians 4:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Paul tells us that Jesus was born under the law, and the reason why that was necessary was so that we could have someone pay for our sins. If Jesus wasn't under the law, then I don' believe His sacrifice would have been accepted on our behalf.

Jesus expaned on the teaching of the law during the sermon on the mount. Hatred is as murder, looking at a woman with lust is adultery. This was not the understanding of the law of Moses in Jesus' day. Having said that, if Jesus tells us that we can eat foods which before hand were considered unclean, then that doesn' mean Jesus broke the law, it means we don't understand what the law means. There is a greater meaning to the law.

Also, I think it's important to recognize that the gentiles were under the law as well, Romans 7:1 and Galatians 3:10-14. God redeemed us from the curse of the law, "that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus..."

Romans 7:1

New King James Version (NKJV)


Romans 7

Freed from the Law

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
Galatians 3:10-14

New King James Version (NKJV)


The Law Brings a Curse


10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€[a] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.â€[b] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.â€[c]
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a treeâ€[d]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

- Davies

 

[Sparkey]

When my children were young I commanded them, "Do not cross the street (without me)."
Clearly that "law" didn't apply to me, their dad.

My point is that we are not in a peer relationship with God. Even Jesus "became lower than the angels" and lived with us (Heb 2:9). He subjected himself to the ordinances that were given to us and learned obedience through his sufferings (Heb 5:8).

Our God responds to our needs and part of that response was to deliver a series of commandments (Laws) that served to guide us to Christ, our redeemer. Some may want to come and say that God is unjust in that He does not subject himself to the same provisions of the law that we are required to follow but this concept does not properly acknowledge true justice, nor does it acknowledge the true spirit of the law which Christ summarized in the Two Greatest Commandments.

The sacrifice of Jesus perfectly shows the love that God has for mankind and the scales of balance were righted when the sinless man paid the price for sinful mankind. Would it be "just" if that payment (the life of Christ, the Son of God) was not acknowledged? Clearly, the plan of God was seen in the resurrected life of our Savior who lives.

Misapplication of the law that was given because of disobedience to the One from whom all life came is an attempt to dethrone God. Let those who think so highly of themselves first go to earthly authorities and try to accuse them. Let the child say to the father, "You can't cross the street by yourself either!" Go to your boss and tell him that he/she can't be paid any more money than you, the new-hire, and demand your right! Let the Private in the army say to the General, it's your turn to peel potatoes!

If none would even consider making such ludicrous statements to earthly authority, how then are we so free to criticize God (by implication) and why can we even think to lower Him to our place? The fact of the matter is that this action (lowering God to our station) is part of our history -- Jesus has already become lower than the angels, has already subjected himself to the law. [Jesus], being found in appearance as a man, ...humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Phillipians 2:8 NAS).

 

[Drew]

Having said that, if Jesus tells us that we can eat foods which before hand were considered unclean, then that doesn' mean Jesus broke the law, it means we don't understand what the law means. There is a greater meaning to the law.

I think you are pushing things too hard here.

The Law of Moses declared some foods unclean.

Jesus declares all foods clean.

Therefore, Jesus is either saying "I disagree with the Law of Moses in respect to the matter of unclean food" or He is saying "I, as God in the flesh, have the right to say that the time of "unclean" foods has come to an end".

I will go with the latter.

I do not see how you can claim that Jesus is not challenging the Law of Moses - at least with respect to food. Food is food. Some foods were forbidden by the Law of Moses. Jesus states otherwise.

I think we are forced to conclude that Jesus is striking down the Law of Moses - at least the food laws, anyway.