Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[Deborah13]

Those who hold the blasphemous concept that God foreknows something because He foresaw it was going to happen in the future,

Then they deny that God foreknew something based upon His own Purpose within Himself, For they say He did foreknow something because He saw it was going to happen, rather than He foreknowing something would happen because He so determined it to happen within His Own Purpose, which is a big difference.

Did God determine this to happen???

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
Jeremiah 32:35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


Jeremiah 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves.â€

I have posted these scriptures before and you have ignored them. This time I hope that you will give your explanation of them. Thanks

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Mystery Hidden at Creation !

Eph 3:3-11

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Col 1:26

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

This World was Created upon the foundation of this Mystery of Christ, and so was adam created on the basis of this Mystery, and the Mystery was even hid from him. That this Mystery comprised a Redemptive Purpose from sin is clearly seen from Eph 3:8-9

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Folks, the unsearchable riches of Christ has specifically to do with Salvation from sin. 2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Yes, God Created this World grounded in the fact the unsearchable Riches of Christ would be preached among the Gentiles, which Paul also refers to in Rom 11:11-12

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The riches being Christ ! Eph 3:8

Now it is true that adam in his created state before the fall was blind to this Mystery and Purpose of Creation !593

 

[savedbygrace57]

Those who hold the blasphemous concept that God foreknows something because He foresaw it was going to happen in the future,

Then they deny that God foreknew something based upon His own Purpose within Himself, For they say He did foreknow something because He saw it was going to happen, rather than He foreknowing something would happen because He so determined it to happen within His Own Purpose, which is a big difference.

Did God determine this to happen???

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
Jeremiah 32:35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


Jeremiah 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves.”

I have posted these scriptures before and you have ignored them. This time I hope that you will give your explanation of them. Thanks

You quoted from post 325 but evaded addressing the points I made. Please address them.

 

[Deborah13]

Those who hold the blasphemous concept that God foreknows something because He foresaw it was going to happen in the future,

Then they deny that God foreknew something based upon His own Purpose within Himself, For they say He did foreknow something because He saw it was going to happen, rather than He foreknowing something would happen because He so determined it to happen within His Own Purpose, which is a big difference.

Did God determine this to happen???

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
Jeremiah 32:35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


Jeremiah 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves.”

I have posted these scriptures before and you have ignored them. This time I hope that you will give your explanation of them. Thanks

You quoted from post 325 but evaded addressing the points I made. Please address them.

That is exactly what I am doing. I am addressing one of the points you made. I am not telling you what I think but what scriptures that seem to say something different than what you do.

I am trying to understand what you are saying. So please address these scriptures as to how they support or don't support your view. OR what you think these scriptures are saying.

What I think is of little consequence. What GOD says is what concerns me. So what is HE saying in your view? Thanks

 

[savedbygrace57]

Deborah

That is exactly what I am doing. I am addressing one of the points you
made

Ok, then please explain them to me.

 

[reba]

Deborah

That is exactly what I am doing. I am addressing one of the points you
made

Ok, then please explain them to me.

These types of rude replies to folks trying to dialog with you can stop.... If you wish to blog we have places for blogging.

The standard is here:
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If you do not wish to abide with our standards you are welcome to move on..

reba

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah

That is exactly what I am doing. I am addressing one of the points you
made

Ok, then please explain them to me.

?? You want me to explain your point?

Can you explain these scriptures? If you cannot just say so, none of us can explain everything in God's Word.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God is First and Primary Cause !

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The Cause of the cause is the cause of the effects. Yes adam was the cause that brought sin and death into the world Rom 5:12, but who was the cause that brought adam into the world ? God is the First Cause of adam, if it had been according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11, God could have created adam with an immutable righteousness and a rectitude of character that he would not have sinned and or fallen, for God was able to make him stand Rom 14:4

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

The word stand is the greek word histēmi:

to make firm, fix establish

1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place

2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety

3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand

God could have kept him back from sinning against Him Gen 20:6

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

The word withheld means:

to withhold, restrain, hold back, keep in check, refrain

God could have if He desired it held him back from sinning, kept him from falling that he should be faultless before Him Jude 1:24

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Therefore we reasonably conclude that God is the first cause of sin and death into His World for a Purpose !

 

[Deborah13]

The Cause of the cause is the cause of the effects. Yes adam was the cause that brought sin and death into the world Rom 5:12, but who was the cause that brought adam into the world ? God is the First Cause of adam, if it had been according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11, God could have created adam with an immutable righteousness and a rectitude of character that he would not have sinned and or fallen, for God was able to make him stand Rom 14:4

Yes, indeed He could have. But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will, to choose life and not death.
2 Corinthians 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

It appears to me that God wants us to want Him and to freely love and obey Him and to love others, in His name.

This is what I hear you saying that your doctrine is....
So God created the first Adam so He could have the Second Adam come to save the first Adam and all the rest of us that are His but He also created those who are evil because He created them that way. And then He will punish them eternally for not obeying, even though He created them so that they could not obey Him.
What a dark and sinister doctrine.

You never did give me your explanation of the Jeremiah scriptures? Is this because it is clear in this scripture that God did not command them to do such an evil thing and that it never even entered His mind to do that.

God has laws in the 613 Laws of Moses, that tells man how to treat animals. It is with kindness, even how to kill them so they do not suffer.

If I train my dog to attack and bite anyone who is a stranger but when he does, I beat him and kill him. I don't think God would approve. And yet that is just what your doctrine says God does to men.

Scripture says, I am suppose to be like Jesus', "be perfect". Jesus says, If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

What do you think Jesus is like?

 

[Brother Mike]

My gosh folks................................... Seriously look at what is going on here. Savedbygrace57 is a hard core Calvinist. I have known him from a few years back on another forum. Everything that happens, God planned it. From those that roast in Hell, to those that get saved (Elect) It's God's will that people sin, because God created them that way for his Sovereign and divine purpose.

This is what He believes. He is like a broken record and ignores things that don't fit his belief like a ton of scriptures.

He is a Calvinist!!!!!!! understand what that is. You are wasting your time. You can not reason with him, I have tried and failed a few years back.

oh.. and Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Elijah674]

My gosh folks................................... Seriously look at what is going on here. Savedbygrace57 is a hard core Calvinist. I have known him from a few years back on another forum. Everything that happens, God planned it. From those that roast in Hell, to those that get saved (Elect) It's God's will that people sin, because God created them that way for his Sovereign and divine purpose.

This is what He believes. He is like a broken record and ignores things that don't fit his belief like a ton of scriptures.

He is a Calvinist!!!!!!! understand what that is. You are wasting your time. You can not reason with him, I have tried and failed a few years back.

oh.. and Blessings.

Mike.

Well with that we are 100% in agreement! But he does not BELIEVE in works? ;) (James 2:24? only believe'ism)
And hell will be filled with this very false belief.

--Elijah

 

[Messenger]

My gosh folks................................... Seriously look at what is going on here. Savedbygrace57 is a hard core Calvinist. I have known him from a few years back on another forum. Everything that happens, God planned it. From those that roast in Hell, to those that get saved (Elect) It's God's will that people sin, because God created them that way for his Sovereign and divine purpose.

This is what He believes. He is like a broken record and ignores things that don't fit his belief like a ton of scriptures.

He is a Calvinist!!!!!!! understand what that is. You are wasting your time. You can not reason with him, I have tried and failed a few years back.

oh.. and Blessings.

Mike.

Well with that we are 100% in agreement! But he does not BELIEVE in works? (James 2:24? only believe'ism) And hell will be filled with this very false belief. --Elijah

TOS

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----------------------------------------
Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly ...And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus (Colossians 3:16-17).

Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious; love is not vain, is not puffed up;
does not behave indecently, does not pursue its own things, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil;
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth.
Love quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. -LITV
1Corinthians 13:4-7

 

[Brother Mike]

\

Well with that we are 100% in agreement! But he does not BELIEVE in works? (James 2:24? only believe'ism)
And hell will be filled with this very false belief.

--Elijah

Well most and I mean most denominations have some election Ideas. In fact all of them do. What extreme do we take it, and where is the line? Many will fight over that as this thread is page 23 (Most by savedbygrace57) but still. When it gets down to God picks your bathroom schedule known and foreordained before the foundation of the World, for me, I think that is going a bit far.

He believes in some obedience Doctrine. Works.......................................... However it's all spin just like needing to preach the gospel. Calvinism is a Baptist Doctrine they also like to put labels on each other.

So, you have Anabaptist who are Neither Calvinist or practice Arminianism, They sort of mix it up though they just don't like the labels. Spurgeon was a Calvinist, but He did not share some of the views as him other brothers which were hyper Calvinist.

All of them take their beliefs from one or two men. John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius. Jacobus studied under John Calvin but after leaving and examining the book of Romans he found this "Elect" stuff more pertaining to Israel and found that John Calvin's hard line election did not come out clean in the rinse. So, He changed the doctrine a bit. Instead of God's picking and choosing, it turns into God's divine foreknowledge of all things.

So, predestination is not God picking and choosing but Gods foreknowledge of all things that are going to happen to that person. So, if God knows you will be saved, then you get saved.

Arminianism Believes that through God knowing everything, that God may also know you will fall from grace. Armininism believes it's possible to fall from grace by God's foreknowledge. Calvinist believe that once picked to be saved, you can't fall from Grace.

These beliefs have Washed into almost every single denomination that came from two men. Both are spin doctors, because if God knows everything, then God set Adam on the planet foreknowing that Adam would fail. Not that God planed Adam to fail but God knew. That is just nonsense because God is just dropping peeps on the planet with no control but only knowing everything, when in reality if you know something is going to be a train Wreak, but put the train in motion anyway, your still at fault.

It's like robbing a bank knowing your going to jail, but rob the bank anyway because your foreknowledge told you that you were going to jail.

It's all spin that came from two different men, one studied under the other. It has washed into everything in some form or another.

Mike.

 

[Elijah674]

Originally Posted by Elijah674
Well with that we are 100% in agreement! But he does not BELIEVE in works? (James 2:24? only believe'ism)
And hell will be filled with this very false belief.

--Elijah
_______

Well, notice my qualification? And it is the 'teaching' (S)
that I have issue with. This is just one of many!

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

Deborah

But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will

What verse says that ?

 

[Elijah674]

Deborah

But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will

What verse says that ?

Try the forbidden fruit.

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

Deborah

But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will

What verse says that ?

Try the forbidden fruit.

What verse says:



--Elijah

What verse says?

But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will

Please show it.

 

[Elijah674]

satan calls God a liar. Gen. 3:4
But that is just one of many lies that satan uses.

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

What verse says?







But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will



Please show it.

Post #341,
Yes, indeed He could have. But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will, to choose life and not death.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Also, the Jeremiah scriptures where God plainly says He had nothing to do with them sacrificing their children. It was their own doing by their own free will and it pretty much does away with the idea that satan must ask God before any evil is committed. Nonsense!!

 

[savedbygrace57]

You made a statement here:

But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will

Please provide us with the scripture that states that.