is it ever ok to abort a baby

[Quath]

Wow. So in your opinion ...when does it become human enough to call killing it murder? What happens before and after that line is crossed that makes this less than human thingy become all human?

As the fetus develops, the fetus gains more rights. So it is murder if it is illegally killed, which is a legal issue.

My birth mother was a rape victim ~ A teenager pregnant with triplets. I was born deformed and disabled...
what would you do with me now?

I was born healthy, but I was also the reason my parents married. I told my mother that she should have aborted me and got married when she was ready (my parents divorced). She said that if she had done that she would not have had me. But I said that she would have had another child that she would have loved later on. And now she would never know that child.

However, the argument seems more emotional than logical.

Quath

 

[Vic C.]

Scott, there is no "what ifs" when a mother is face to face with the child she gave birth to and grew to love even more than when the womb. There is only the "here and now". You are right, no logic at all and it was nothing to argue about either. Love and logic is well, illogical sometimes. 8-)

 

[Voyageur]

Just to get you all caught up as far as what precipitated this debate on abortion, I am going to cut and paste the bulk of the debate between me, jgredline and a few others.

I don't really feel like reiterating my position, so that's why I am cutting and pasting.

jgredline said that he was OK with this, so here it is. Jgredline kicked off the debate by using an excerpt from an article:

Not surprisingly, the platform declares the Democratic party's unqualified support of Roe v. Wade. In an attempt to appear moderate, the authors make what is now the pro-abortion cliche that abortion ought to be "safe, legal, and rare." But, the radical nature of their position is revealed by a suggestion that tax money ought to pay for abortions. "Because we believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman's right to choose, consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay." The government would presumably bear the cost of providing abortions to those who could not afford them.

This was my reply:

Abortions are going to happen whether the state regulates it or not. This is just plain truth. As a non-religious state, any attempts by Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc., to ban abortion will obviously be met with opposition, since it would be supporting religious views in a secular government. I don't know exactly what my stance on abortion is, since there are alot of factors to consider. And since I have never been faced with situation of unexpectedly impregnating a woman, I cannot say how exactly I would act. Although, I suspect that I would opt to keep the child because I have wonderful parents who would help me care for the child. But, I do know this: I don't think that women should be made suffer the psychological damage of carrying to term a baby conceived through rape, incest, or a pedophelic act. Nor would I want a woman attempting to abort the fetus/baby themselves or by a person claiming that he/she can abort fetuses/babies, or if its done in a medically unsafe area. If there is no government oversight of abortion, then people will have to suffer through dirty operating rooms, unqualified doctors, and the further psychological trauma of carrying to term a child born of rape, incest or a pedophelic act.

 

[Solo]

It is never ok to abort a baby. I do not even support the abortion of liberal's babies. 8-)

 

[Voyageur]

The argument continued:

You believe killing babies is ok in some cases

I don't believe in killing babies. Quit trying to frame the debate around such shocking use of language and demagoguery. I'm saying that perhaps it is not always right to let a child be born of a rape, incest, or impregnation through pedophelic intercourse. What are your views on rape, incest, and pedophelia?

[quote:9bb90]but putting a baby up for adoption did not enter your mind.

Adoption is certainly a possibility. Of this, we seem to be in agreement. I'm just not sure that a baby of an incestuous union should be allowed into this world considering the biological/anatomical/psychological problems it will have to endure even with the care of an adoptive parent.

But we have to be careful about who is really being affected by the pregnancy: mother, child, or both.

Would you like to live for 9 months knowing the child growing inside of you was the byproduct of a rape or incestuous union, or of a 40 year old man impregnating you as a 13 year old girl?
[/quote:9bb90]

Here is the next portion of the debate:

By the way I was faced with a decision 18 years ago as to abort my child. Up until she was 8 months old the doctors were encouraging us to abort this pregnancy because she was going to be born downsyndrome (retarded).
My wife and I did not care. We said if this is what God chose to give us then so be it. To the the surprise of the doctors and nurses and special ward my wife was in when she gave birth, the Lord blessed us with a perfect baby girl.

What does this have to do with me? I wouldn't abort a baby with down syndrome either. And if Doctors told you that your baby was to be born with down syndrome and it wasn't, then it was the mistake of the Doctors.

And beyond that, the Lord doesn't heal babies in mid-pregnancy. Something is wrong quite early on in a pregnancy that leads to a baby having down-syndrome. The condition can't just spontaneously correct itself.

[quote:9bb90]There is NEVER any reason to kill a baby.

I personally wouldn't abort a baby. But, you didn't answer my query. I'll quote it again for your convenience:

Would you like to live for 9 months knowing the child growing inside of you was the byproduct of a rape or incestuous union, or of a 40 year old man impregnating you as a 13 year old girl?

There are thousands of good families out there waiting to adopt a baby.

I totally agree.

This is something your not capable of understanding.

Yes it is. I understand it completely. But, if a woman who wants to abort her baby because she was raped, or because she had an incestuous union, or because she was sexually molested and impregnated by an older man, I wouldn't begrudge her the option. Its not my choice... its hers.[/quote:9bb90]

 

[Voyageur]

Then a member named Quath took issue with jdredline's comments. I've extracted the response below:

This shows in your post. Jesus said your either with me or your against me.
He left no room for moderates (which is just another name for liberal)
The fact that you do not attend church to me brings up a great big red flag. You have nobody to be accountable to and it shows in your rediculas answers.

Depends on which part of the Bible you support:

Whoever is not against us is for us â€â€Mark 9:40
He who is not with me is against me â€â€Matthew 12:30

My wife and I did not care. We said if this is what God chose to give us then so be it.

What natural problems do you leave to God and what ones do you decide the outcome of? For example, do you get immunizations or do you trust God? When injured, do you trust God or do you go to a doctor?

[quote:f625e]To the the surprise of the doctors and nurses and special ward my wife was in when she gave birth, the Lord blessed us with a perfect baby girl. The Lord healed her as he saw our faith.
There is NEVER any reason to kill a baby.

What about all the babies born with Down syndrone? Did their parents not have enough faith?

Its not an option that any Christaian would ever take. There are thousands of good families out there waiting to adopt a baby. This is something your not capable of understanding. Perhaps when your born again you will.

Maybe not by your version of Christianity, but many Christian do abort. If you look at studies, Christians have just as many abortions as non-Christians and Catholics have higher than average.

Quath[/quote:f625e]



And that brings us up to speed, as jgredline wanted to create a thread specifically for this topic.

 

[Voyageur]

Just in case you did not notice during the course of reading through the previous debate, jgredline failed to directly answer a number of my queries. Specifically, the instances where I asked his opinion on the three situations in which I would not begrudge a woman the option for abortion.

The debate started on page 4 of this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=45

 

[Solo]

The murder of a life created by God Almighty is not allowable without retribution; even though the liberal theologions of the world smile when the billion dollar industry supports many liberal agendas.

Abortion is a sinful crime no matter the excuse one uses to commit one.

 

[ikester7579]

I think before someone makes a real decision on a subject like this. They need to see what real abortion is all about. So I'm going to leave a link. But before I do, I must give a warning about it's content. This is not a prolife site. It is a site that exposes what abortion really is. Unlike a prolife site, they do not clean up the pictures of aborted babies.

If you have problems with nightmares, I suggest you don't look at this. To be blunt, it's very gross depiction, but an eye opening one. I ran across this site while doing research on another subject. Just to tell you how it shocked me, I forgot what I was researching, and still don't remember what it was.

Note to mods: Even though it is what it is when you click on it. the truth needs to be known about what abortion really is. And how babies are mutilated even up to nine months (there are pics of this on that site).

Here's the link: http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Abor ... on_Photos/

If anyone is unsure of clicking on this link, wait until a mod approves it.

 

[Rob]

I was able to handle the pictures(as hearbreaking as they are), what I couldn't personally handle was reading how the procedures were done. I am far from having a weak stomach but reading how the procedures are done was far beyond disturbing. I would personally like anyone on this forum that supports any form of abortion to click that link and check the link on the side that describes how abortions are performed. If you can visit that site and still support abortion under any circumstance then I can honestly say that you would be a person I would want to avoid.

 

[ikester7579]

I was able to handle the pictures(as hearbreaking as they are), what I couldn't personally handle was reading how the procedures were done. I am far from having a weak stomach but reading how the procedures are done was far beyond disturbing. I would personally like anyone on this forum that supports any form of abortion to click that link and check the link on the side that describes how abortions are performed. If you can visit that site and still support abortion under any circumstance then I can honestly say that you would be a person I would want to avoid.

What's even worse is to know that one human can do this to another, and go home to his or her family as if nothing happened.

 

[Solo]

I was able to handle the pictures(as hearbreaking as they are), what I couldn't personally handle was reading how the procedures were done. I am far from having a weak stomach but reading how the procedures are done was far beyond disturbing. I would personally like anyone on this forum that supports any form of abortion to click that link and check the link on the side that describes how abortions are performed. If you can visit that site and still support abortion under any circumstance then I can honestly say that you would be a person I would want to avoid.

What's even worse is to know that one human can do this to another, and go home to his or her family as if nothing happened.

And then vote for a Democrat! :o

 

[thessalonian]

Abortion can never be the intended consequence of an action even to save the life of the mother. For example in a tubal preganancy both lives will likely be lost. The medical procedure is not for abortion but to save the life of the mother with the unintended consequence of loosing the life of the child. Life begins at conception. Cocieved infants do not become more human. They are human the moment their have their own dna and are on their own path of life, starting in the womb.

 

[Vic C.]

J,

your story brought tears to my eyes. An awesome way to start the day. Thanks!

Voyageur,

And beyond that, the Lord doesn't heal babies in mid-pregnancy. Something is wrong quite early on in a pregnancy that leads to a baby having down-syndrome. The condition can't just spontaneously correct itself.

I understand you wanting to rationalize out this miracle of God's for J, his wife and daughter, but logic and miracles don't mix very well at all. You limit the power of our Creator by suggesting HE is not capable of healing at any point of a pregnancy HE chooses. He reveals HIS very Self to creation in ways like this. Jesus healed a blind man with some earth and saliva, do I need to go on?

ikester,

Thanks for adding the disclaimer for the link in your post. That was the right thing to do. I just think they should have come up with a better name and logo for their site. That disturbs me. :o

 

[ttg]

This shouldn't even be a topic for debate on a Christian board. Rather, we should be talking about the best ways to prevent abortion.

Unfortunately, in the 1930's a certain "church" decided abortion was ok in certain circumstances and that idea has spread to mainstream Protestantism.

 

[moniker]

The murder of a life created by God Almighty is not allowable without retribution; even though the liberal theologions of the world smile when the billion dollar industry supports many liberal agendas.

The fact that you are so divorced from reality to believe this is as frightening as it is saddening.

 

[Quath]

I notice people bring up the idea that we do not have the right to take a life or to make life and death decisions. I would like to bring up several points that counter this.

1. The Old Testament is full of death penalities. If a child is rebeliious, kill him. If a girl has pre-maritial sex, kill her. If a man is gay, kill him. If a man promotes another religion, kill him. If people are in the town you need to live in, kill them all including children and infants. If we are not to make life and death decisions, we should not be told to do so.

2. We constantly make life and death decisions and circumvent God. If you break an arm, do you say "It's God's will if this arm heals?" No. You go to the doctor. If a child is sick, do you just pray? No, you give medicine or see a doctor.

3. With limited resources, every action represents a loss of axction elsewhere. For example, the $80,000 used to keep Terri Schiavo alive could have been used to keep hundreds or thousands of kids in Africa alive. But people chose one life over thousands of other lives. So we make life and death decisions all the time.

4. For most of Chistian history, termination of a pregnancy before 40 days was not considered bad. If spiritual truth on when it is ok to terminate a pregnancy was given 2000 years ago, why has it changed in the recent times?

Quath

 

[Vic C.]

This shouldn't even be a topic for debate on a Christian board. Rather, we should be talking about the best ways to prevent abortion.

Unfortunately, in the 1930's a certain "church" decided abortion was ok in certain circumstances and that idea has spread to mainstream Protestantism.

No, this is going rather well and more civil than many of the abortion discussions we have had here. No serious debaing going on and that's good. We need to talk about this and we need to educate people if we are to prevent abortions in the future.

Now please don't leav us hanging; what church is it you speak of? I find no references that date back as far as the 30's. The SBC, in it's short-lived liberal times of the 70's, had a slight liberal take on some abortions, in 1971. They got more and more conservative about it as the decade went on, eventually supporting a law in 1980, making abortion illegal except when the life of the mother was in danger.

They are one of the biggest proponents in the world concerning the Sanctity of Life.

 

[jgredline]

I need to get to work and will address the post directed to me at lunch or in the evening, but for now I wanted to leave this video for those who support in the murder of babies

http://www.liveprayer.com/abortion.cfm

Its real, so its graphic. You are warned.

Jg

 

[thessalonian]

This shouldn't even be a topic for debate on a Christian board. Rather, we should be talking about the best ways to prevent abortion.

Unfortunately, in the 1930's a certain "church" decided abortion was ok in certain circumstances and that idea has spread to mainstream Protestantism.

ttg, I think you mean contraception. Most churches don't think abortion is okay. The Anglicans approved of contraceptin in the 1930's and this has spread.