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Is it fair that only those who heard of and believe in Jesus can be saved?

Does anyone think God is fair in destroying those who reject knowledge as they continue to sin against Him?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

God is fair in all His righteous judgements that pertains to life and godliness.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It's our choice to either reject Him and pay the consequences, or to accept Him and have eternal life with Him.
 
jaybird said:
i agree, there are many passages of how our words can defile us. telling someone to burn families house down maybe, or the mega church money preachers that teach the more money you give the church the more the Lord loves you. the point i was making is the difference between saying your a good example and living as a good example.
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Then I understand you.
Words are actions in them selves. But it is the action that follows that has the effect. Either good or bad.

Much is facade. Looks right and seems right. But what's underneath might be corrupted and deceptive..
 
for_his_glory said:
Does anyone think God is fair in destroying those who reject knowledge as they continue to sin against Him?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

God is fair in all His righteous judgements that pertains to life and godliness.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It's our choice to either reject Him and pay the consequences, or to accept Him and have eternal life with Him.
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I am just thinking that there is a difference to reject knowingly and to reject from ignorance. Or for the lack of knowledge.

Would God be righteous if someone was to go to hell simply because they didn't know or understand?
 

Is it fair that only those who heard of and believe in Jesus can be saved?​

Seems to me what would be fair is for all of us to suffer the consequences of our rebellion against, and belittling of, God Most High and for the Most Perfect One to not have suffered in order to save us. I do not desire fairness; I want grace and mercy.
 
Hospes said:

Is it fair that only those who heard of and believe in Jesus can be saved?​

Seems to me what would be fair is for all of us to suffer the consequences of our rebellion against, and belittling of, God Most High and for the Most Perfect One to not have suffered in order to save us. I do not desire fairness; I want grace and mercy.
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The Bible teaches that faith comes from the heart.
Who can see the heart of men?
Only God!

I do not believe that we get saved based on geography.
If I was born in Brazil I would likely be a Catholic. In Syria I would probably be a muslim.
I don't think that being saved is based on either religion or geography.

I think many muslims will get saved. Anywhere.
Because I believe that anyone anywhere can know Him in their hearts.
His sheep hears Him when He is calling on them...
 
Link1983 said:
I am just thinking that there is a difference to reject knowingly and to reject from ignorance. Or for the lack of knowledge.

Would God be righteous if someone was to go to hell simply because they didn't know or understand?
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IMO to reject knowingly and in ignorance are the same thing as they lack knowledge because their hearts have been blinded from the truth as they become lovers of self and have hardened their hearts.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
 
for_his_glory said:
IMO to reject knowingly and in ignorance are the same thing as they lack knowledge because their hearts have been blinded from the truth as they become lovers of self and have hardened their hearts.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
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someone that proclaims they reject Jesus and all that He taught is not the same as someone that has never heard of Jesus or His teachings.
 
Before Jesus had come, they were judged by the law. After, we are judged on if you accept him as the truth or not.

Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
 
Link1983 said:
I am just thinking that there is a difference to reject knowingly and to reject from ignorance. Or for the lack of knowledge.

Would God be righteous if someone was to go to hell simply because they didn't know or understand?
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I think I can only answer this as only God knows the intents of the heart and He alone is the judge.

Rejecting knowingly and out of ignorance are both a lack of knowledge in the definition of the word ignorance. Not everyone has heard, but yet the word of God has always gone forth in every nation from generation to generation so I can not see anyone being without excuse unless they have lived a recluse life all their life and then they would probably would have no sin as they have no interaction with others, but are even they without excuse from generational preaching of the Gospel?

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Since when is God held to the rules of fairness that man has created??

God was here 1st, and He is OUR CREATOR, and we are to surrender to HIM in EVERYTHING.

I didn't question my father when I was little, and I don't question my FATHER in heaven now !!!

My name is OLIGOS
 
jaybird said:
if someone never hears of Jesus, they die, then punished in hell forever and ever.

please explain to me what they are being punished for?
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That's a really fabulous question jaybird.

For me the answer has to be found in depending on the love and mercy God has for His creation of mankind.

God is not hateful, and somewhere in who we see Him as loving, we have to find peace in the fact that even though we don't have the answer, God has the answer, and we can depend on Him loving us and wanting our best in those kind of situations, and believe His answer will be perfect.

My name is OLIGOS
 
jaybird said:
if someone never hears of Jesus, they die, then punished in hell forever and ever.

please explain to me what they are being punished for?
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Suppressing the truth by their wickedness. They might not have heard about Jesus, including those who lived before Jesus came to the earth, but they know what is the right thing to do. Cain killed Abel and fled. Who taught him that it was a crime to kill? From the day that Eve and Adam ate the forbidden fruit, they and their generations, knew good and evil.

Human beings know what is right and what is wrong. Their conscience is either excusing them or accusing them. "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" Romans 2:14-15.

I do not really like quoting several passages but I think you need to read this. Apologies if someone had already quoted it to you in a previous post.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20.
 
Couppy said:
Suppressing the truth by their wickedness. They might not have heard about Jesus, including those who lived before Jesus came to the earth, but they know what is the right thing to do. Cain killed Abel and fled. Who taught him that it was a crime to kill? From the day that Eve and Adam ate the forbidden fruit, they and their generations, knew good and evil.

Human beings know what is right and what is wrong. Their conscience is either excusing them or accusing them. "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" Romans 2:14-15.

I do not really like quoting several passages but I think you need to read this. Apologies if someone had already quoted it to you in a previous post.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20.
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this isnt what i asked, these examples you give are people going to hell and they are punished for wrongdoing, wickedness, etc.
im asking about someone that does nothing wrong, i know no one is perfect so lets say for arguments sake that the person in question lied to their parents and cheated on their wife, after committing these sins they felt ashamed and asked for forgiveness in the culture they were born into which was not Christian, they live the rest of their life being a good husband, good father, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, tending to the sick, just as Jesus did with exception to the marriage stuff, and they die, they died in a non Christian culture, they never heard of Jesus, therefore they are in hell burning forever and ever being punished.
what are they being punished for?
 
JLB said:
Do you think Job, or Abraham knew Jesus?
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JLB,

They knew the Trinitarian God as He revealed Himself in plurality from the first verse of the Bible: 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' (Gen 1:1 NIV). Who is this God' He is Elohim, which is an abstract plural. So it is a plurality of persons - a title, not a name.

This is confirmed in verses such as: (1) 'Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...." (Gen 1:26 NIV) and 'the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever"' (Gen 3:22 NIV).

We see a similar Trinitarian emphasis in Isa 6:8 (NIV): "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?’ And I said, ‘Here am I. Send me!’"

Oz
 
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jaybird said:
if someone never hears of Jesus, they die, then punished in hell forever and ever.

please explain to me what they are being punished for?
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I really do not think anyone can truly answer that question as all we know from the scriptures that it is all by having faith in God and accepting His Son Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior being Spiritually born again in order to see the kingdom of God.

God's word has been from the beginning and has been preached in every nation from generation to generation. I really can not see anyone without excuse, especially here in the America. Even those around the world I can not imagine that they would not have ever heard at least the name of God or Jesus ever being mentioned, but yet I do not know.
 
jaybird said:
this isnt what i asked, these examples you give are people going to hell and they are punished for wrongdoing, wickedness, etc.
im asking about someone that does nothing wrong, i know no one is perfect so lets say for arguments sake that the person in question lied to their parents and cheated on their wife, after committing these sins they felt ashamed and asked for forgiveness in the culture they were born into which was not Christian, they live the rest of their life being a good husband, good father, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, tending to the sick, just as Jesus did with exception to the marriage stuff, and they die, they died in a non Christian culture, they never heard of Jesus, therefore they are in hell burning forever and ever being punished.
what are they being punished for?
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jaybird,

There is no such person who 'does nothing wrong'. The unborn child has a sinful human nature from conception. See:
I don't have enough information from Scripture about what happens to those who have never heard the Gospel, but this I know from God's revelation:
  • 'People are without excuse' (Rom 1:20 NIV).
  • God is an absolutely righteous judge:
  • (1) 'Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you' (Ps 89:14 NIV).
  • (2) Jesus said, 'By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me' (Jn 5:30 NIV), and
  • (3) 'By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me' (1 Pet 1:17 NIV).
On judgment day, not one person - believer or unbeliever who hasn't heard of Jesus - will be given an unfair hearing. He is the good and just Judge who has no favourites.

Oz
 
for_his_glory said:
I really do not think anyone can truly answer that question as all we know from the scriptures that it is all by having faith in God and accepting His Son Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior being Spiritually born again in order to see the kingdom of God.

God's word has been from the beginning and has been preached in every nation from generation to generation. I really can not see anyone without excuse, especially here in the America. Even those around the world I can not imagine that they would not have ever heard at least the name of God or Jesus ever being mentioned, but yet I do not know.
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so after Jesus there was no need to send missionaries anywhere because they already knew?
 
OzSpen said:
jaybird,

There is no such person who 'does nothing wrong'. The unborn child has a sinful human nature from conception. See:
I don't have enough information from Scripture about what happens to those who have never heard the Gospel, but this I know from God's revelation:
  • 'People are without excuse' (Rom 1:20 NIV).
  • God is an absolutely righteous judge:
  • (1) 'Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you' (Ps 89:14 NIV).
  • (2) Jesus said, 'By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me' (Jn 5:30 NIV), and
  • (3) 'By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me' (1 Pet 1:17 NIV).
On judgment day, not one person - believer or unbeliever who hasn't heard of Jesus - will be given an unfair hearing. He is the good and just Judge who has no favourites.

Oz
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i never tried to suggest there were perfect people out there that never make a mistake. i even gave examples of a few mistakes becasue i didnt want to get into the whole sin nature discussion because that was not the point. let me try it a different way.

you have one person, they lie to their parents when asked if they ate a cookie, they get old and lie to their boss, maybe they stole something, each time they do these things they feel really bad, ashamed, beg the Lord for forgiveness. but in the end their life is full of giving charity, compassion, forgiveness, and love.

now you have a 2nd person, they torture animals when a child, get old and start stealing, molest children, killed a person, you name it they did it, rotten to the core, and they have no remorse, never ask for forgiveness.

they both did bad things, are you saying they are the same?
 
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