Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[eddif]

Eternally saved or saved at any particular point in time or reasonable assurances of salvation, but not surety. These are the 3 main talking points on the subject matter.

The super majority of sects hold the last underlined point above. In other words, a majority of believers (sects) do not even believe they are saved, only that they might be. IN some such sects it could or would even be considered a "heresy" for a believer to claim they are, in the now, permanently forever saved.

So I ask any believer who believes salvation can be lost to weigh in on how critical they think their stance is?

Is it MANDATORY to believe you might not be saved in order to (might) be saved?

IF this is not a critical mandatory point, then it is a worthless point, as there are many other points of reason why people depart the faith, like not being saved to begin with or disagreements of conscience with points of doctrines, etc.

And I'd ask the same question to those who hold the first underlined point:

IS it mandatory to believe you absolutely are forever saved in order to be saved?

Since this particular friction seems to permeate the majority of conversations I'd like to see a weigh in of how many believers are "forced" into (potential) condemnation of other believers over their sights of how mandatory their particular stance is.

I personally think the scriptures give space for all 3 sights, and am not interested whatsoever in entering into condemnation of other believers over the matters. If they are weak or strong or in between wouldn't really matter to me UNLESS any particular sects "hard line doctrine" made it mandatory to enter into CONDEMNATION. There, I'd have to draw a line of departure.

Romans 14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

I might add, in light of the above, that the underlined points of observation 2 and 3 above makes "doubt" mandatory. And I reject any forms of disputations that promote doubt. If I have to doubt, I prefer to not. I don't doubt Jesus' Abilities to save every believer, whether they themselves believe this or not. And I hold this to keep myself out of condemnation to other believers and out of doubt of our Savior. It's a point of conscience for me. IF I enter into condemnation, then I HAVE NOT LISTENED AND APPLIED TO JESUS OWN WORDS, HERE:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I might even say that those who are fully persuaded into doubt, have perhaps doubted themselves out of the equations of faith, and proved themselves doubters. Not that I would condemn them, as it would be a "personal problem" in the mind of such holders.

You did a pretty fair job with your post. I do not mean to be lukewarm, but passion in belief is needed (as you stated). A liver has a function in the body. Is a liver just like the kidneys? No. We individually are different in function. My function is different, but everyone does not need to quote eddif on a regular basis. We do not need to fragment, but be in unity as the body of Christ. Do I see this with total clarity? No, but there is a day coming.....,

Romans 1:19-20

Redneck
eddif

 

[smaller]

You did a pretty fair job with your post. I do not mean to be lukewarm, but passion in belief is needed (as you stated). A liver has a function in the body. Is a liver just like the kidneys? No. We individually are different in function. My function is different, but everyone does not need to quote eddif on a regular basis. We do not need to fragment, but be in unity as the body of Christ. Do I see this with total clarity? No, but there is a day coming.....,

Romans 1:19-20

Redneck
eddif

If either one of us had to personally ascribe to a Body Part of Christ I'm sure we'd be fighting for the back side.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Practitioners of self denial and HATERS of self, HATERS of ones OWN life, are a rare find in today's world of believers.

I mean who wants to ascribe to being dead and having a LIFE they can not see? The flesh never takes kindly to these kinds of sights, by it's nature.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm? I doubt that anyone here holds that view.

Then THAT contradicts your first observation. I might call that an unfortunate exercise in reasoning power and an engagement in pointless circular reasoning.

The reality of "christianity" is that there are the 3 talking points I referenced. I have engaged and sat under them all, personally. And have been "required" to enter into condemnation of other believers by all three positions. Which for me is a violation of conscience, as duly noted. That's why I ask anyone sitting under any of the 3 talking points IF condemnation to other believers is MANDATORY. In most sects condemnation IS mandatory.

The basis of the latter 2 positions makes DOUBT mandatory as well, so it's a double whammy. You must DOUBT your faith and enter into CONDEMNATION in order to be saved. Which to me, personally, is absurd to claim as "Christianity."

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Smaller,
You're right, of course, about my using the word "mandatory" to cause a contradiction. In my second thought I should have used the word "necessary". Would that have been to your approval?

It's not enough anymore to state what we believe doctrinally? Now we have to become philosophers too? My reasoning power is not sufficient for you? I think my reasoning power is excellent. Or I would have been long gone - what with excellent posters such as Jim, Oz, Jethro, JLB.

Also, I've never before heard anyone accuse another Christian of using circular reasoning. Much of our reasoning is circular when we speak to each other. We use the book to prove the book. Something I don't do when speaking to atheists or even agnostics, at times.

Having said all that, so you could employ your intelligence and just understand me next time around, I must say that I agree with your 3 points. I also have been to two of those churches, but have become familiar with the third.

Personally, I don't exclude anyone from salvation or heaven. Any church that does will not receive my vote.
I've stated here many times, which is why I did not pay a lot of attention to my wording, that it is JESUS who saves us NOT a doctrine.

It is NOT mandatory to condemn anyone else. Jesus said to let the first one with no sin throw the first stone.
I'm not throwing any stones.
John 8:7

Anyone who thinks they are without sin should start their own church.
I also say without any doubt that your third state of salvation, that of never being sure, has not been changed by that very church (the RCC). They will say that if you believe in Jesus you can be sure of your salvation if you persevere - and I'm not getting into that - you know what persevere means.

I believe something very simple.
If I BELIEVE and FOLLOW Jesus to the best of my ability NOW, I feel safe in my salvation.
WITHOUT condemning anyone else.

Although discussing ideas and doctrine is interesting, I repeat that doctrine saves no one.
Jesus hung on the cross, not a doctrine.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

What IS the Kingdom of God?
Does Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven mean the same thing?

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
"Its use by Jesus is by far its most interesting aspect; for, in the Synoptists, at least, it is His watchword, or a comprehensive term for the whole of His teaching."

"2. "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God":
In these quotations, and in others which might easily be adduced, it will be observed that the phrases "the kingdom," "the kingdom of God," "the kingdom of heaven" are used interchangeably."

What does "will not inherit the kingdom of God mean?

Wondering

It means to have no inheritance IN the kingdom. There are 3 parallel passages regarding inheritance and the kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5. In the Eph 5 passage, we read this:
"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance IN the kingdom of Christ and God."

What it doesn't say is that such a person will not enter the kingdom which seems to be a common error.

So, to "not inherit the kingdom" means "to have no inheritance IN the kingdom", as all 3 passages are parallel.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what Romans 6:23 "so clearly states"...

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Yes, absolutely clear. Since ALL humans are sinners, and therefore ARE already spiritually dead, the only solution is to receive the free gift of God, that is eternal life.

And Paul THEN wrote that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29, so we know that eternal life is irrevocable.

Paul warns Christians a life on sin will lead to death, as the context so clearly states.

Oh no, that is not at all what he wrote. Where did he say "will lead to death". He SAID the wages of sin IS death. And before he wrote 6:23, he wrote 3:9 and 23:
3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin

3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

So, by the time one gets to 6:23, they should already know that all humans are already spiritually dead. By the fact that they have already sinned.

All throughout Romans Paul reiterates this truth, as he does in all his letters.

The truth that he wrote about is that eternal life is a gift of God and is irrevocable.

Taking a half of a verse, and splicing together with another half of a verse, while ignoring the context is the mark of a doctrine that is inspired by man, and not the Holy Spirit.

Is this actually an attempt to deny that eternal life is a gift of God, or that some of God's gifts are not irrevocable??

The context of Romans 11:29

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:19-29

No problem. Reading backward from 11:29, the VERY NEXT TIME we read about a gift of God is in 6:23. So your context doesn't support your claims. Between 6:23 and 11:29 no one will find ANY mention of "gifts of God". So therefore, 6:23 and 11:29 are directly linked.

In fact, Paul makes NO MENTION of anything regarding what Israel has as a gift.

Jesus plainly taught that those who are disconnected from Him, will end up in the fire and burned.

No, He NEVER said that at all.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Please prove the apparent claim that "disconnect" means "to not abide". In fact, the word "disconnect" never occurs anywhere in the Bible. So please stick with biblical words and terms.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person does not inherit the kingdom of God, then what kingdom are you teaching they inherit?

I never said those who won't inherit the kingdom will inherit anything else. And there is no reason to make that assumption. So let's not.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

There are 2 kinds of inheritance in Scripture, both are mentioned in Romans 8:17 - and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

We have God's children, which are "heirs of God" by means of being His children.

We also have "fellow heirs with Christ", a DIFFERENT kind of inheritance, by means of suffering with Him.

Please don't try to conflate being a "child of God" with "suffering WITH Him". They are NOT the same.

 

[FreeGrace]

You did a pretty fair job with your post. I do not mean to be lukewarm, but passion in belief is needed (as you stated).

Why didn't Paul include this little tidbit when he answered the jailer's question of "what MUST I DO to be saved?"? He said to believe, and used the aorist tense.

Please point out the verse that clearly indicates that one must believe "with passion". Oh, and btw, please define what that means.

 

[JLB]

Yes, absolutely clear. Since ALL humans are sinners, and therefore ARE already spiritually dead, the only solution is to receive the free gift of God, that is eternal life.

Paul carefully teaches the Church at Rome, over and over in his letter that: Christians who choose to live a sinful life [whose deeds are unrighteous] will in the end receive eternal death, which is called indignation and wrath.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

On the other hand, Paul says that those who become a slave to God, will bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end will receive eternal life.

...will in the end receive eternal life.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23

...and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Eternal life is granted at the end, after God has judged our deeds.

Those who choose to become a slave again to sin, and walk according to the flesh, will in the end receive death.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I never said those who won't inherit the kingdom will inherit anything else. And there is no reason to make that assumption. So let's not.

If a person does not inherit the kingdom of God, then what kingdom are you teaching they inherit?

If we do not inherit the kingdom of God what other kingdom is left for us to inherit.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41


Those who did not inherit the kingdom of God, were sentenced to hell along with the devil and his angels.

Those who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul encourages the Galatian Church to walk in the Spirit, so that they will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


Only a Christian is able to walk according to the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Hello Brother FreeGrace. A true Christian cannot loose his/her Salvation. They are the "Elect" of God, which is the Remnant of which God has always had. The Remnant is made up of Old Testament and New Testament true believers.

 

[JLB]

Hello Brother FreeGrace. A true Christian cannot loose his/her Salvation. They are the "Elect" of God, which is the Remnant of which God has always had. The Remnant is made up of Old Testament and New Testament true believers.

Where does the "General Call" come into play?

How do you define a "true" Christian who is saved through the General call of the Gospel?

A True Christian who is saved through the "General Call" of the Gospel, vs a true Christian who is considered the "elect" of God: What is the difference?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul carefully teaches the Church at Rome, over and over in his letter that: Christians who choose to live a sinful life [whose deeds are unrighteous] will in the end receive eternal death, which is called indignation and wrath.

There are no verses anywhere in the Bible that teaches that Christians, who have eternal life, can lose it for ANY REASON. The opposite is true; that those who Jesus Christ gives eternal life WILL NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER PERISH.

OK, Jesus said "never" only once, but I wanted to emphasize what He said in John 10:28.

It's interesting to note that He attached NO CONDITIONS for those He gives eternal life to in the promise that they WILL NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER PERISH.

iow, by the simple fact that those He gives eternal life (which, obviously, would only be those who believe in Him) will never perish. That's a promise to believe.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Yes, and for believers, it will be either rewards for faithfulness, or loss of rewards for unfaithfulness (1 Cor 3:15).

Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

There is no reason at all to think this teaches that one can receive eternal life by "continually doing good".

Esp since Paul went on to teach that there is none righteousness, no not one in Rom 3:10.

So, since there is none righteous, how can anyone actually "continually do good"? That is impossible. And Paul didn't leave it there. He went on further to teach that by the deeds of the Law (doing good), NO ONE will be justified. Rom 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

So, it's obvious from Scripture that no human being can fulfill Rom 2:6-8.

On the other hand, Paul says that those who become a slave to God, will bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end will receive eternal life.

This sure sounds like a works salvation system. Yet, Paul also taught in Eph 2;8,9 that we are saved by grace through faith, and NOT BY WORKS.

Eternal life is granted at the end, after God has judged our deeds.

Well, your opinion is directly contradicted by the very words of Jesus Himself, who said that those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person does not inherit the kingdom of God, then what kingdom are you teaching they inherit?

I answered this question DIRECTLY in post #406. Please read my posts before responding out of ignorance of what I have already posted.

If we do not inherit the kingdom of God what other kingdom is left for us to inherit.

No kingdom.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

Why would anyone think that this is "inheriting" some other kingdom?? There is no reason.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hello Brother FreeGrace. A true Christian cannot loose his/her Salvation. They are the "Elect" of God, which is the Remnant of which God has always had. The Remnant is made up of Old Testament and New Testament true believers.

Absolutely correct!!

 

[JLB]

Hello Brother FreeGrace. A true Christian cannot loose his/her Salvation. They are the "Elect" of God, which is the Remnant of which God has always had. The Remnant is made up of Old Testament and New Testament true believers.

Do you understand what the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom of God" means?

Paul plainly warns these Galatians, as well as the Corinthians, and the Ephesians that they will not inherit the kingdom of God, if they practice the works of they flesh.

That means someone's "doctrine" will have to yield to Paul's doctrine.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why would anyone think that this is "inheriting" some other kingdom?? There is no reason.

Because Christians who practice the works of the flesh, do not inherit the kingdom of God.

If the do not inherit the kingdom of God, then which kingdom do you believe they inherit?

 

[JLB]

No kingdom.

Absoloutly correct, they have no part in the kingdom of God, remaining outside.

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:15

Case closed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why would anyone think that this is "inheriting" some other kingdom?? There is no reason."

Because Christians who practice the works of the flesh, do not inherit the kingdom of God.

Doesn't answer my question of why one should think that there even is another "kingdom" to inherit.

If the do not inherit the kingdom of God, then which kingdom do you believe they inherit?

How many times must I answer this question. There is NO OTHER KINGDOM TO INHERIT.

Was that clear enough?

Let me ask this question, since I've answered your question 3 times in a row.

Where does the Bible SAY that there is even another kingdom to inherit? Please post your supporting verse from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Absoloutly correct, they have no part in the kingdom of God, remaining outside.

I said "no kingdom", which, from the obvious context, meant no OTHER kingdom. And that still doesn't preclude those who don't inherit the kingdom of God from not entering His kingdom.

Remember, there are 3 parallel passages on the subject. 2 of them say "will not inherit the kingdom", and the 3rd one says "not have an inheritance IN the kingdom". Therefore, to "not inherit the kingdom" means to "not have an inheritance IN the kingdom".

So, obviously, one can be IN the kingdom yet not have an inheritance IN that kingdom.

You've not proven otherwise so far.

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:15

Case closed.

How does this verse support anything of what you've posted? I see no connection whatsoever.

Your predilection for quoting verses that don't support or say what you're claiming is noteworthy. But, is there any verse that does support your claims? I've not seen any yet.

 

[JLB]

Doesn't answer my question of why one should think that there even is another "kingdom" to inherit.

Exactly, if your not in the kingdom of God then you are outside His kingdom.

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:15

And again

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, Colossians 1:13


JLB