Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OK, let's go with that idea. Where does the Bible describe unbelief as a sin? Secondly, where does the Bible say that Christ never died for that sin?

Unless there is evidence from Scripture for both of these questions, your premise is flawed wrong."

In the passage below, unbelief is a sin, and to be guilty of that sin is to no longer be holding fast the assurance of faith and instead to fall away from God and no longer be a partaker of Christ:

"12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end..." (Hebrews 3:12-14 NASB)

Where, in this passage, is unbelief described as a sin? I don't even see the word 'sin' here. So your claim is false. Try again.

And anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life:

"...he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

Of course. Absolutely. One HAS Christ WHEN one believes on Him and receives eternal life. And Jesus Himself promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

Where in His promise in John 10:28 does He list conditions on those He gives eternal life to? He didn't.

Which only makes sense since Christ IS eternal life:

"His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

No argument.

You can't still have eternal life if you no longer have Jesus Christ because of an evil, sinful, unbelieving heart that has fallen away from God and which does not hold fast the assurance of faith to the very end. These are the plain words of scripture I'm posting.

Again, no, your speculation and assumptions are just unbiblical.

The assumption is that falling away from the living God SOMEHOW breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit. If that were so, why didn't Paul INCLUDE that where he taught about the sealing with the Holy Spirit. He sure as should have. But he didn't. So it's nothing more than a false assumption.

Just like the prodigal son, even though the son left the father, he REMAINED the son, and the father REMAINED the father. What was broken (or died) was fellowship, NOT relationship.

Until that is understood, Scripture cannot be rightly divided. It WILL BE wrongly divided, as you've done.

 

[FreeGrace]

What makes you think the "whoever" mentioned here is a saved person?

Could be saved or unsaved, right? I mean it says whoever. Then says that man, "causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble ..."
This passage is distinguishing the "him" that's doing the causing with "these little ones who believe in Me".

This passage is NOT anti-OSAS.

That is, unless you re-interpret what it means to stumble into de-salvation. I assume, you realize that to "stumble" does NOT mean to become de-saved.

Psalm 37:23-25 (YLT) From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth. When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand. Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.

James 3:2 (LEB) For we all [including James] stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect individual, able to hold in check his whole body also.​

​

Yes, that view re-interprets by assumption.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"You have failed to explain how eternal life, a gift of God, is NOT irrevocable"

It has been explained to you many, many times.
The gifts and calling remain for the nation of Israel.

Ha. And I've explained MANY times that NO WHERE in Romans or anywhere ELSE in the Bible is Israel described as having been given GIFTS. So when Paul mentioned the gifts of God in 11:29, we HAVE TO at least look at all the places where he previously mentions 'gifts' in Romans to know what he was referring to.

And I've done that. And here's what he described as gifts of God:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

And, how interesting, he noted 3 different gifts of God, before he NEXT used the plural, 'gifts' in 11:29. And all you want is to limit what he meant to Israel in ch 9-11, EVEN THOUGH he NEVER said ANYTHING about gifts for Israel anywhere in Romans. Or the rest of the Bible.

"Did God reject his people? By no means!" (Romans 11:1 NASB)

I don't see anything about gifts or calling here.

God has not changed his mind about that. He did not change his mind about the gifts and calling extended to them just because former generations, now dead and condemned for eternity, did not accept them.

What gifts were "extended to them"? Simply making a claim in no way makes it true.

The invitation to walk in the gifts and calling he ordained for them is still on the table.

What are these 'gifts to Israel'? Cite Scripture, please.

It has not been revoked. Never will be.

Where did Paul specifically EXCLUDE the gifts of justification and eternal life from the gifts of 11:29? If that cannot be proven from Scripture within Romans, then your point is pointless.

There's always a remnant among them who receives them.

And what are these 'gifts'?

And one day the nation as a whole will receive them.

Receive what??

You've been ignoring the context all along and have been unrightly dividing out vs.11 from the context and what Paul is actually talking about.

I've shown from the entire context of the letter to the Romans what Paul was referring to by the word 'gifts of God'. That has NOT been done regarding your claims about these so-called 'gifts to Israel'. Where is your context?

That's why honest readers of the scriptures can't accept your interpretation of that single verse you have isolated away from the context.

Being stuck in ch 9-11 is what isolation is. Since Paul NEVER mentioned any 'gifts to Israel' anywhere in Romans. And I've shown 3 times in Romans where he clearly speaks of gifts that come from God.

Those who want to talk context MUST have some context, unlike your position.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are mixing up the thems (those causing the stumbling and those stumbling) with the little ones. I highly suspect on purpose.

Good grief, chessman. All you have to do is read the passage:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

It's the kill shot for OSAS. Jesus says it's better to cut off the 'whoever' that is causing little ones who believe in Him to stumble than for the little ones who believe in Him to be cast into the fiery hell. It's plainly spelled out for us. But OSAS claims it's impossible for a believer in Jesus to stumble so as to be cast into the fiery hell.

I posted the Biblical meaning of stumbling. It DOES NOT mean to be cast into Hell nor does it mean unbelief.

What a ridiculous argument.
Jesus is plainly saying believers in Him can be stumbled so as to go to the fiery hell. He plainly says what the stumbling of believers results in. The word stumble all by itself doesn't have to have a definition of 'going to hell' for that to be true. He specifically says the stumbling, if not removed, results in going to hell. The very thing OSAS swears can never be the fate of one who believes in Jesus. But these are the plain words that anybody who can read can see for themselves--believers in Jesus can suffer the fate of eternal damnation. It's the death blow to OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"You have failed to explain how eternal life, a gift of God, is NOT irrevocable"

Ha. And I've explained MANY times that NO WHERE in Romans or anywhere ELSE in the Bible is Israel described as having been given GIFTS. So when Paul mentioned the gifts of God in 11:29, we HAVE TO at least look at all the places where he previously mentions 'gifts' in Romans to know what he was referring to.

And I've done that. And here's what he described as gifts of God:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

And, how interesting, he noted 3 different gifts of God, before he NEXT used the plural, 'gifts' in 11:29. And all you want is to limit what he meant to Israel in ch 9-11, EVEN THOUGH he NEVER said ANYTHING about gifts for Israel anywhere in Romans. Or the rest of the Bible.


I don't see anything about gifts or calling here.


What gifts were "extended to them"? Simply making a claim in no way makes it true.


What are these 'gifts to Israel'? Cite Scripture, please.


Where did Paul specifically EXCLUDE the gifts of justification and eternal life from the gifts of 11:29? If that cannot be proven from Scripture within Romans, then your point is pointless.


And what are these 'gifts'?


Receive what??


I've shown from the entire context of the letter to the Romans what Paul was referring to by the word 'gifts of God'. That has NOT been done regarding your claims about these so-called 'gifts to Israel'. Where is your context?


Being stuck in ch 9-11 is what isolation is. Since Paul NEVER mentioned any 'gifts to Israel' anywhere in Romans. And I've shown 3 times in Romans where he clearly speaks of gifts that come from God.

Those who want to talk context MUST have some context, unlike your position.

All one has to do is read what Paul is talking about and see he's talking about God not revoking the gifts and calling for Israel, not making a statement about OSAS. Anybody who can read can see this for themselves.

 

[chessman]

He specifically says the stumbling, if not removed, results in going to hell.

No He doesn't. You do.
How ridiculous for you to misquote Jesus.

Matthew 5:29 (LEB) And if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members be destroyed than your whole body be thrown into hell.​

It is better to remove the causes of sin than to be thrown into Hell. I 100% agree with Jesus' statement. I disagree with yours. You have twisted what Jesus said.

 

[chessman]

All one has to do is read what Paul is talking about and see he's talking about God not revoking the gifts and calling for Israel,

Since God has demonstrated His gifts and callings are irrevocably applied to Israel does that not really drive home the point that all of God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, even to Romans? It does it for me. Then the only real question is does anyone (Jew or Gentile) get called and gifted by God. Those gifted with Eternal Life have most certainly been called and gifted by God. Irrevocably so!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since God has demonstrated His gifts and callings are irrevocably applied to Israel does that not really drive home the point that all of God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, even to Romans?

Correct. It does not. That is, not to individual Romans.

Besides all the plain scriptures that make it impossible to draw the implication from Romans 11:29 NASB that a believer can never lose eternal life, what makes Romans 11:29 NASB NOT about OSAS is the fact that the context is multiple generations of Israelites always having the gifts and calling of God available to them, because Paul says God has never changed his mind about the nation of Israel having those gifts and calling. And he uses himself as an example to demonstrate the truth of what he's saying. The context is NOT about an individual Israelite who once believed, then didn't believe, but still retains his part in the gifts and calling of God despite his rejection of those gifts and calling.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those gifted with Eternal Life have most certainly been called and gifted by God. Irrevocably so!

You're drawing an implication from the passage that the passage does not support.
Besides, that implication can not be drawn because we have so many other plain scriptures that show us you can't do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is better to remove the causes of sin than to be thrown into Hell.

And this is different from what I've been saying how?
Jesus said it's better to remove the cause of stumbling from the Body of believers who believe in Him so that the Body of believers who believe in him do the better thing and enter into Life without those parts of the Body of believers who cause the stumbling, rather than retain the parts of the Body of believers who cause the stumbling and be cast into hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB). But OSAS insists that will never ever be the fate of a stumbling believer in Christ. Christ is plainly saying otherwise.

 

[JLB]

No He doesn't. You do.
How ridiculous for you to misquote Jesus.

Matthew 5:29 (LEB) And if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members be destroyed than your whole body be thrown into hell.​

It is better to remove the causes of sin than to be thrown into Hell. I 100% agree with Jesus' statement. I disagree with yours. You have twisted what Jesus said.

Jesus plainly warns us all, that it would be better for us to remove the source that causes us to sin from our lives, that for us to be thrown into hell.

There is no misquote of Jesus.

It is a plain and straightforward warning to all.


JLB

 

[chessman]

the context is multiple generations of Israelites always having the gifts and calling of God available to them, because Paul says God has never changed his mind about the nation of Israel having those gifts and calling.

Correct. Over all the multiple generations of individual Israelites, God has never revoked or regretted, not even once, any of His gifts or calling to them. A walkoff, worldseries, winning grand-slam demonstration of His love. This includes Paul, an individual Israelite.

he uses himself as an example to demonstrate the truth of what he's saying.

Bingo!

The context is NOT about an individual Israelite

Huh??? Paul uses himself as an example to demonstrate the truth of what he's saying but it's NOT about an individual Israelite.

Have you had coffee this AM?

 

[chessman]

Jesus plainly warns us all, that it would be better for us to remove the source that causes us to sin from our lives, that for us to be thrown into hell.

There is no misquote of Jesus.

It is a plain and straightforward warning to all.

That's my quote. I have never, not once, claimed this passage teaches anything other than this principle. The issue is Jethro Bodine does claim the passage teaches more than this:

He specifically says the stumbling, if not removed, results in going to hell.

No He does not say that

He specifically says it's better for us to remove that which causes sin than be thrown into Hell. It is better.

We should spend our entire Christian lives removing that which causes us to sin from our lives (and our churches). But in the end, it is gonna take God to 100% cleanse out that which causes us to sin. That's simple Orthodox Christianity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Correct. Over all the multiple generations of individual Israelites, God has never revoked or regretted, not even once, any of His gifts or calling to them. A walkoff, worldseries, winning grand-slam demonstration of His love. This includes Paul, an individual Israelite.

How is this OSAS?

Huh??? Paul uses himself as an example to demonstrate the truth of what he's saying but it's NOT about an individual Israelite.

Have you had coffee this AM?

I should have known you'd twist this to try to win by frustration. Honest discussion is impossible with you. This response shows me you have no honest defense against what I said.

 

[JLB]

Excellent. When's the last time you sinned and confessed and repented? Or are you now, already set free from sin?

Romans 6:7 (LEB) for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
​

I assume your body has not died, right?

I have been set free from many different sins over the years in which I no longer struggle with them.

I have died to the old life of sinful behavior, when I was Baptized.

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Romans 6:4-9


You have mistakenly thought that Paul was talking about physical death.

The victory we have now in Christ Jesus, is that we can now walk in the newness of life, being dead to sin.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

We have been given the power and grace of the Holy Spirit, to crucify, which is to say, put to death the sinful deeds of the body.

We, no longer need to submit ourselves as slaves to sin.

...do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead.

...present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

We should spend our entire Christian lives removing that which causes us to sin from our lives

Right, because if we don't we can expect to go to hell.

Which Paul confirms to all His churches.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? ... 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-16,23.

and again
.
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh... 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16,19-21

... those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

and again

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

and again

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

All one has to do is read what Paul is talking about and see he's talking about God not revoking the gifts and calling for Israel

I have already asked what the specific 'gifts to Israel' Paul was referring to. What are they? And where does Paul mention them for any real context for 11:29?

not making a statement about OSAS.

Then please provide what specific gifts to Israel Paul was referring to.

Anybody who can read can see this for themselves.

Well, I seem to be having a huge problem finding ANY reference to 'gifts to Israel' ANYWHERE in the letter to the Romans.

In fact, I have a problem finding ANY reference to 'gifts to Israel' ANYWHERE in the Bible.

So, what are these so-called 'gifts' and where are they described?

 

[JLB]

I have already asked what the specific 'gifts to Israel' Paul was referring to. What are they? And where does Paul mention them for any real context for 11:29?

The gifts through which the call of the Gospel is made.

If the call is needed then eternal life is not the gift, since it says... the gifts and and calling together are irrevocable.

Gifts are plural and refer to multifaceted ministry gifts of the body of Christ, through which the call of the Gospel to the lost are demonstrated.

It is the body of Christ, through which the call of the Gospel is demonstrated.

4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy,let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:4-8

Paul teaches the same thing to the Corinthians:

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12:27-31


The gifts, plural refer to the gifts through which the call of the Gospel is demonstarted, or presented.


The gift of eternal life is singular.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Not the "gifts" of eternal life.

Eternal life if is "in Christ Jesus".

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

Those who are "in Christ Jesus", have eternal life, and if they remain "in Christ Jesus", then in the end they will be given eternal life at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22


JLB

 

[chessman]

I asked:
"When's the last time you sinned and confessed and repented?"
You 'answered':

I have been set free from many different sins over the years in which I no longer struggle with them.

That's not answer to my first question. You even back-quoted it, yet didn't answer it.
Have you been set free from all sins is the question you need to answer.

But let's just take the ones that took you years to be set free from, did they de-save you??? No.

Right, because if we don't we can expect to go to hell.

So you were expecting to go to Hell because of the sins it took you years to be "set free" from even while believing in Christ???

 

[chessman]

Honest discussion is impossible with you.

Honestly, Jesus didn't say:

the stumbling that believers in him do causes them to be cast into hell.