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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Malachi
Member
After that Adam and Eve sinned, and brought death upon the human race (Rom 5:12). All humans beings are now born "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1-5) and are therefore spiritually dead. Without the New Birth no one can be a "son of God" or a child of God (Jn 1:12,13; 3:3-8).
Thus quoting the genealogy of Christ to prove that everyone is a son of God is completely at odds with Scripture. Jesus said "Ye MUST be born again!" because all men are born sinners, separated from God, and in fact enemies of God, and under the control of "the prince of the power of the air".
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Brother Mike
Guest
I don't know if the Word performance is a good word. Jesus said my yoke is lite. I have never been in agreement with preaching sin and hellfire to get people to the Lord. I preach Jesus is awesome, wants you healed, wants you prosperous and is a good shepherd who's sheep are well taken care of.
It's like marriage. You go out of your way for your spouse and do things because you want something in return later, just trying to keep the peace, and so on, or do you really respect your spouse and do those things because you just love them as Christ Loves the Church?
I don't steal because I don't want to go to hell, I could care less about hell.
I don't steal because My Lord does not approve of it, and I know the laws of reaping and sowing and the thing I stole will cost me more than what I would have paid to buy it.
I think it's like you said, a heart thing and the Lord knows the heart and hearts can change on the Lord.
Blessings.
smaller
Member
Except for the nasty little side entry about the alternative? Why leave out the bad news?
If my wife thought I could burn her alive forever for disobedience to me I'm pretty sure there would have been no marriage to start with.
It would seem that if a person takes that stance there is some basis for it? Even if it's ignored. I call it the little surprise package that comes with that entire sectarian field that adheres to that aspect. I can't really stomach it myself. Pretty fond of John 5:24 and the abilities of Jesus to see things through to the end, and forever, even if I happen to get in my own way, which happens more frequently than I care to look at.
Ya know when Jesus said to be as Perfect as God, (Matt. 5:48) that one always throws me for a loop for some odd reason. But I do know from experience that I can only take so much of God in my present state. Thinking the larger enchilada is going to have to come on at a later date, like in the next world.
I tend to distrust believers who are lurking in the wood to pounce on me. And there are quite a substantial number of them. Comes with the territory I heard.
Agreed!
Who quoted the genealogy of Christ, in an attempt to prove everyone is a son of God?
I quoted the genealogy of Adam, to show that Adam alone was called a son of God, because he alone was directly created by God.
Likewise, angels who were created by God are called sons of God, and have God as there Father, being there creator.
JLB
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Brother Mike
Guest
If my wife thought I could burn her alive forever for disobedience to me I'm pretty sure there would have been no marriage to start with.
Ya know when Jesus said to be as Perfect as God, (Matt. 5:48) that one always throws me for a loop for some odd reason. But I do know from experience that I can only take so much of God in my present state. Thinking the larger enchilada is going to have to come on at a later date, like in the next world.
I tend to distrust believers who are lurking in the wood to pounce on me. And there are quite a substantial number of them. Comes with the territory I heard.
I have a wife also. I feel ya brother.
Perfect like God?
One has to be a god to be perfect like God. It goes back to how God made us, and find out He mad man like Him.
Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Since God is Love, then we by nature should be love. Take no thought done wrong to us, turn the other cheek, feed your enemy. give, give and give. Be spent.
I am convinced we are gods. We are in God's Class, created like Him. Now I am not speaking to the ignorant that equate "GOD" with ability, I speak to the learned that understand "God" as a class and not the "Lord God"
Evolution has done it's best to make man believe he is just a beast, some random miracle through time in a cosmic chaos called the universe.
So agree or not, follow along. We are gods, but with flesh, programed by the World to follow the flesh. Flesh is selfish, someone being perfect like God is not.
So, someone that can be saved, but then lost according to the scriptures we find. Is it not wanting to continue in your revealed nature?
Folks do a great disservice preaching we are not gods, they side with evolution.
I don't know, if by nature just like the Father in His class, obeying him and doing what He would do, then how does a person knowing this decide to get "UNSAVED" by just deciding to go against their nature being a beast again and weak man? I understand flesh is always going to get in the way, but why would a heart change not striving to please God?
This whole OSAS thing has issues, who really wants to find out and write the rest of us from Hell? Not me.
Blessings Brother, let's love our wives according to the grace given.
Mike.
smaller
Member
Aw shucks. Here I thought I found the bottle with the Genie in it.
What do you think Paul meant when he didn't even see himself as living?
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
To me it would seem impossible to permanently do away with a "believer" because technically speaking we've already been personally done away with in Christ. There really isn't a believer remaining of themselves to do away with permanently in hell for whatever reason. We just get fooled into thinking there is.
I agree with you, but somewhat of an aside. You and I would probably have a lot of fun with this kind of stuff but we always get cut off.
I'd say maybe more like programmed in the flesh by the devil.
Perhaps dead men's imaginations in play? Ghost particles left over after the personal crucifixion still resonating in the atmosphere?
Uh, because deception by adverse agents IS a reality? If the devil is going to hell permanently (he is) then I might suppose his biggest lie is to convince believers they are (or MIGHT BE) going along with him if they don't behave PERFECTLY?
To some extents. I've delineated my theological problems with the premise as it is "commonly" proposed as it is a little too encompassing from what I see, but I agree with the end game in principle. It might be a bit of a misnomer though. Technically we aren't really saved as in OSAS because we already died and on the other side of the matters we are comprised only of Christ. There is only ONE survivor. The rest were assimilated into the winner.
I thought you weren't worried about hell? Kinda sticks wit ya tho, donit? You can never quite shake it out. It kinda hangs back there in the possibility zone.
My wife is very much "like" God. She sees everything and knows everything. At least that's what I say to her just so she knows how I see her God like status. She doesn't believe me though. heh heh
What's your question.
I responded to you, and told you that my response to Reba, was hypothetical.
I then asked you if you thought Pharaoh was destined by God to go to hell. You said No.
What specifically is your question about Pharaoh?
If I'm not giving you the answer you are wanting to hear, and you have a point to make, then please make your point.
JLB
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Brother Mike
Guest
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
To me it would seem impossible to permanently do away with a "believer" because technically speaking we've already been personally done away with in Christ. There really isn't a believer remaining of themselves to do away with permanently in hell for whatever reason. We just get fooled into thinking there is.
I agree with you, but somewhat of an aside. You and I would probably have a lot of fun with this kind of stuff but we always get cut off.
I'd say maybe more like programmed in the flesh by the devil.
Uh, because deception by adverse agents IS a reality? If the devil is going to hell permanently (he is) then I might suppose his biggest lie is to convince believers they are (or MIGHT BE) going along with him if they don't behave PERFECTLY?
My wife is very much "like" God. She sees everything and knows everything. At least that's what I say to her just so she knows how I see her God like status. She doesn't believe me though. heh heh
My wife is pretty awesome also, Mike get's way out there and she has the pole to reel me back. Scripture says for this purpose the Son of God was manifest that He might destroy the Work of the devil the Devil was a sinner from the start, a liar, thief, murderer. It would seem a person would Need Jesus to escape the clutches of the evil one and without Jesus then your at the devils will in whatever he wants to do.
Anyway, this OSAS Topic has gotten boring through the years. Hell is a real place and anyone who has Jesus stupid enough to test to see if you can actually end up there is so crazy, the topic has no merit but what the looney bins would discuss.
Stick with Jesus, always. Makes sense.
Mike.
smaller
Member
This is what I've seen from experience. When believers think that God in Christ loves them but MAY, as a possibility, burn them alive forever (or eternally annihilate them if you prefer) they question the sincerity of that Love, and they question their own abilities, as they should in such a format.
And one of 2 things happen. They either become extremely intolerant, belligerent, self justifying lying hypocrites, OR they eventually realize that they are not fit to make themselves sinless (they never were capable to start with) and they just give up regardless of the supposed consequences because they know for a fact they can't do it. And the whole construct falls apart and they turn anti-christian because they question the whole construct.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
All part of the journey I'd suppose. Personally I stay away from other believers who think God in Christ might burn them alive forever. That space also comes with a LOT of legalism and a boatload of phony positions. Again, known by 'experience' in the realms.
Here are some verses to consider, concerning Pharaoh.
This particular Pharaoh made a choice, to side himself against God, and His people.
15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?”
19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.”
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. 21 And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them.
22 So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive.” Exodus 1:15-22
Pharaoh did not fear God, as the midwives did, but rather chose to be against God, and murder the children of Israel.
JLB
Based on the following scripture, what is the reason these folks on His left hand, were cursed and sentenced to burn in the everlasting fires of Hell?
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46
Those who love the Lord, and served Him, were not afraid to write the truth, to warn those who would read these words.
Likewise those who love the Lord and serve Him today, are not afraid to warn both themselves and those who desire to know the truth.
Unlike those who would deny the words of Christ, as written through His Apostles, because they seem difficult, and do not tickle there ears. These would rather hide behind the lies of the devil, and mislead God's people with words that appease their flesh.
Peter said it this way, of false teachers who promised liberty, while they themselves were in bondage.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22
Peter uses the example of angels, who are called sons of God, that were cast down to hell, to warn God's people about teaching false doctrine.
Doom of False Teachers
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:1-4
JLB
smaller
Member
How you and I see these matters obviously vary. I do not believe scripture sees just people in any equation of people. See Mark 4:15 for one example of many of the same.
Just look to WHO is being addressed
And if any really desire an honest look at the subject matter they WILL find the devil implicated in their own sins. 1 John 3:8. So, I'd suggest the separation that is being shown is going to strike a LOT closer to home than most 'believers' are able to see. And they can not see because of the other party.
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Brother Mike
Guest
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
we are talking in this thread about a True Christian losing their Salvation. The title of the thread is stupid enough as no True believer can just "lose" their salvation.
I guess we can thank JLB for coming up with something brilliant like this........ sigh....
What is sin though? Violation of light given. Not everything is sin to everyone.
How do we look at Job? Perfect love cast out fear, Job obeyed God out of wrong fear, and Satan turned that against him. If your kids curse God in their heart, they die Job, you die, God will kill you all.
Did God just have a bad wicked day and give the devil permission to murder the mans kids, or did everything Job fear come on him as we are told to fear not more than we are told not to steal or do any other sin except worship idols. (Job 3:25)
Apparently, if God had no choice but to give Satan his rightful place (give no place to the devil) else God would be unjust, then Job's error cost him, but God's mercy at the end helped him.
How much then is our honest error to be accounted? We don't know everything, but that does not stop spiritual laws from working.
If God just had a bad day and had the mans kids murdered for no reason, then no further examination needed, but Elihu said Job was rewarded according to his ways.
Could you explain what you mean by this?
His Servants.
Yes, that's the root of your whole theology, as it shows in all your writings.
You blame the devil for everything, and don't seem to take responsibility for personal choices.
Each of us, are responsible for our own deeds we have done in our body, in this life.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10
Thank God, He is merciful and we can call on Him in time of trouble.
He will forgive us, if we come to Him and confess our sins.
However, there are also many warnings in scripture, that teach us of the consequences of practicing the works of the flesh.
JLB
smaller
Member
Again? Come on. We've done this drill so many time now I've lost count.
Mark 4:15 contains a basic scriptural principle. That in the place we see only as 'a man' or "an individual" externally, there are actually TWO separate and distinct parties.
I don't have my "own" theology. The principle that is put in front of my eyes is as plain as DAY to me in writing.
But there is a little side note that comes with it. IF believers "can't" believe that it happens to them, they won't be able to see it, even though it's right there in type to see. And this is an exact prophetic utterance:
Isaiah 44:18
They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Both of the above statements are speaking exactly of what happens in Mark 4:15
I have no doubt that A. We are all sinners and B. That "our/my" sin is of the devil and that sin is in fact demonic. So why would the devil NOT be brought into the equations? To me that is blindness imposed by that same worker/working. Believers in general REFUSE to see their own sin as being demonic. IN fact they'll blame anything BUT the devil's implications in their own sins. It's as predictable as rain.
Who is "us" is always the question at hand. I do not believe that there is any such theological animal as "a free standing individual" in the eyes of scripture other than God in Christ Himself. The overlap with mankind and devils couldn't be any clearer in the Gospels.
That will apply to the believer. It will NOT apply to the devil and his messengers who are also fully implicated in all matters of sin in everyone.
Especially being involved with lying hypocrisy, which is the indicator of open demonic slaveship, particularly in believers. I think they'll be saved anyway because I see the other parties.
1 Timothy
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy;
I believe the early church knew this principle. That they were sinners and that their OWN SIN was demonic. And on that basis they lived a life of SEPARATION, but did NOT deny that they were sinners and that their own sin was demonic. They recognized and knew that the battle ground was in their OWN flesh/mind/heart and that meant the ENEMY was there.
Any believer today who is honest knows this as well. But there are very few who are that honest.
This principle fell away from the churches a long long time ago. And the pews are filled with blind people in denial. Nevertheless those who have called upon our Lord to save them,
shall BE SAVED.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Many more however will be drawn and quartered by our enemies internal. I am not going to fall into the trap of condemning such where there are OTHER PARTIES to observe in the equations of judgment. I can LOVE the one and DETEST the other. Just as I practice with myself.
Tell me that you have never ONCE reminded the tempter of his fate when he tempts. I do, often.
Perhaps many believers could actually take the time to observe the real culprits and get off the backs of the fallen faithful? But they can not because they can not SEE THEM. Neither do those who fall really know what hit them. They are trapped. Our engagement is to free them, and NOT condemn them.
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
When the early Apostles were released from prison, this was what they were commanded to do:
Acts 5:
19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
Some unfortunately prefer to damn them to hell instead. They'll hear better, eventually.
smaller
Member
Any believer, such as Job, or Abraham, will be led to hate themselves.
Abraham expressed it here for example:
Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
Job was led to the identical conclusion:
Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Jesus said this is a mandatory principle for discipleship:
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
This principle is exemplified in every truthful speaker of Gods Words in the Bible.
Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
Jeremiah 10:19
Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous; but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.
Micah 7:1
Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.
IF all these men saw truthfully, I might suggest they spoke truthfully about themselves. Paul didn't even consider himself alive, but DEAD.
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When people think God is going to burn believers alive forever, they seem to have forgotten a basic premise of the call of faith. When we called upon the Lord to save us.
WE DIED. It is Him Who Lives.
There is no one to torture forever in hell remaining of that person.
