Is it Really So Easy?

[Doulos Iesou]

Doulos Iesou:

I won't respond to the criticism, but invite you instead to tell me what you mean specifically? (in terms of a simple trust in what Ephesians 2.8-9 says).

Blessings.

My point is, Scripture has much more to say about following Jesus, and being saved than Ephesians 2:8-9, we should evaluate ALL of the God-Breathed and profitable text on the matter to come to a Scripturally and balanced position. To simply highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 and then maybe perhaps ignore v.10 and many many other passages can lead to the heresy of hyper-grace.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Messenger]

The thief on the cross was elected before the foundation of the world to become saved (Ephesians 1:3-11); it's the only way! And the result, and witness to us of that calling and election of grace (Romans 11:5), was that he called Jesus Lord and the evidence was that Jesus promised him "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:42-43).

It's the only way anyone becomes saved. God does all the work to bring those He has chosen to eternal life with Him!

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In other words, there is nothing anyone can do to become saved; no "steps"; no works. It's ALL God's work! (John 6:29). Even the act of repentance which leads to salvation is given by God Himself (2 Timothy 2:25; John 3:27); any other way is just an invention; another religion of man. Study God's Word for yourself. God teaches His own (Psalm 25:14, 51:6: John 15:15).

TGBTG!

 

[About the Son of God]

I think we've had an instance of miscommunication, as will be spelled out later in this post in more detail.

You see, I don't think we should just cut and paste the meaning of words from one context to another,

I knew that before I did it. But, when the meaning is the same -- cut and paste works.
Hence cut and paste is a test for variability.

Denotation: (Roughly) The strict meanings of a word, literal, devoid of context.
Connotation: The range of meanings a word has in a particular sphere of discourse due to context.

...as both the Greek and Hebrew words should be brought into consideration to come to the most accurate conclusion. Most translations render it "tall," which is what the imagery of "stretched out" was meaning to convey.

Conceded.

You seem to disregarding a few things.

But maybe I didn't.

1. My translation of Isaiah 18:7 took into account the Hebrew and the context.

Which Matthew can't because there is no Hebrew.

3. I don't believe we should directly input the meaning of a word from one passage into another, without first examining that context.

OK. Tit for Tat.
I don't believe without being able to show an example of a words denotation from *somewhere* (a clear example); that one should claim the word has that meaning.

It seems you are arguing for the idea of the ultimate root meaning of this word being an oppressor, and this is the reason why I addressed the Hebrew (which you seem to be avoiding).

I got lost..... I mentioned a "root" meaning after you had already addressed Hebrew; Where did you say anything about Isaiah (which is the only Hebrew we have) being "oppressor" before I did?

This word was chosen by the translators of the LXX to represent that original Hebrew word,

You're assuming that the modern Hebrew word accurately represents what the translators of the LXX saw.
There are occasional variations in Hebrew Manuscripts.... it might not be the word in the Massoretic versions.

and therefore this would shouldn't take on a life of it's own (though it does bring some new information to the text and the way the original Hebrew is viewed) it ultimately is subservient to the Hebraic meaning.

Ummm... you really lost me there.
As far as I know, translators as well as original authors can be inspired by the Holy Spirit in their work.
As far as I know, Greek words have meanings known to Greek speakers who knew nothing about Hebrew.

I wouldn't say "stretched out" either in Matthew 7:14, I would use the word "constrained" to represent what the text is saying.
...
Yes, it's called CONTEXT. I am not arguing for an universal definition of the word, while I think the word generally illustrates an idea, that plays out differently in certain contexts.

Umm..yes...
But... you aren't showing me places where it clearly *denotes* "narrow" or even "small" ? ( as opposed to "oppressed"? ) I agree that oppressed may be sufficient for your arguments .... I'm just being a stickler.

If the word is so rare, that this usage you speak of can't be isolated from contextual implications that don't come from the word itself; then I think the particular distinction is too subtle to be used as a good solid general argument.

Granted, though you came out asking some pretty technical questions.

I think drawing on the instance of of the perfect participle form of the word θλίβω will be a very limiting study, as we only have the instance of Isaiah 18:7 to draw off of, which is in my opinion a rather technical and differing instance.

Precisely my point. The one example we have so far .... is a problem rather than a help.
So, it's not really that great a point to say how much the Greek meaning of words adds to Matthew 7;14.

But let's say that this is a fluke of Isaiah.... Would another example help? Leviticus 22:24 (Check the LXX εκ-τε-θλιμ-μεν-ον )
( I can, of course, spend some time to get examples from non-biblical texts which will remove the temptation to appeal to the Hebrew. If you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaly want me to..... )

There are other things you have said, and perhaps I am aware that we agree more than you give me credit for;

...
Afflicted I believe can be maybe perhaps even more accurately translated "oppressed" while the Greek word στενοχωρούμενοι is rendered "crushed" in this instance, illustrating that while the believer is pressed upon on all sides, that they are caught in a narrow place due to all the oppression they face, yet are not utterly crushed.

That was generous of you. I like it.

I'm just going to note -- that a believer could be on the wide open plains of Nebraska; But if they are oppressed by a misguided police officer, the handcuffs are still pretty small on all sides. Probably because human hands are pretty small ... much, much, much... smaller .... than the size of the road being traveled in Nebraska....

I'm curious, what do you believe then is the ultimate meaning of the passage Matthew 7:13-14?

Blessing in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

I'm sorely tempted to answer 42. I get the feeling a devil might be trying to hitch-hike on my shoulder....

But, I'm going to instead focus on reality.

Matthew 7:14 is embedded in a series of sayings about prophets; This is what I know about prophets:
Their hard life almost always ended in execution -- whereas -- false prophets were generally treated well.

In a more general vein of thought about "strait" roads, persecution, and wars...:

The Romans built a special gate into every city under their power; It's known as the eye of the needle.
It's not a gate within a Gate; or even a small gate. It's a literal hole in the wall. Just barely big enough for a child who weighed little, and who could run far and fast, to squeeze in with a message from one Roman garrison to another.

A full sized man, let alone a camel could never get through it.

It might as well have been the eye of a sewing needle that someone tried to put a rope through.

Yet, Jesus was fond of camels; saying "You strain out the Gnat and swallow the Camel"; and again
Matthew 19:24-25.

Matth 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Matth 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this *is* impossible; but with God all things are possible.

A full sized man won't fit into a child's gate; but I do know that God could make them fit, even if I don't know how.
John 21:5-6

 

[farouk]

Doulos Iesou:

I won't respond to the criticism, but invite you instead to tell me what you mean specifically? (in terms of a simple trust in what Ephesians 2.8-9 says).

Blessings.

My point is, Scripture has much more to say about following Jesus, and being saved than Ephesians 2:8-9, we should evaluate ALL of the God-Breathed and profitable text on the matter to come to a Scripturally and balanced position. To simply highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 and then maybe perhaps ignore v.10 and many many other passages can lead to the heresy of hyper-grace.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

@Doulos Iesou :

I would agree generally with some of what you say.

In fact I did refer to verse 10 of Ephesians 2 in post #29. (In fact, I think I addressed the post to yourself.)

Blessings.

PS: I've never heard of what you call the heresy of hyper-grace. To my simple mind, salvation is all of grace or not at all.

 

[George Muller]

The thief on the cross was elected before the foundation of the world to become saved (Ephesians 1:3-11); it's the only way! And the result, and witness to us of that calling and election of grace (Romans 11:5), was that he called Jesus Lord and the evidence was that Jesus promised him "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:42-43).

It's the only way anyone becomes saved. God does all the work to bring those He has chosen to eternal life with Him!

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In other words, there is nothing anyone can do to become saved; no "steps"; no works. It's ALL God's work! (John 6:29). Even the act of repentance which leads to salvation is given by God Himself (2 Timothy 2:25; John 3:27); any other way is just an invention; another religion of man. Study God's Word for yourself. God teaches His own (Psalm 25:14, 51:6: John 15:15).

TGBTG!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Great a "simple" message, Messenger

 

[Edward]

Boy, this thread sure has come a long way since I've posted!

The way I read Edward's opening post was is it as simple as making a statement or uttering certain words. I do not believe it is. Those words mean nothing unless they come from one's heart. Lip service is useless. Like James wrote, "Faith without works is dead."

This indeed, expresses my exact sentiments and thoughts.

BUT! Then we have scriptures such as James 1:22 and the other which says faith without works is dead. Is that merely for treasures in heaven, or wold it perhaps keep one out? If you love me, you will keep my commandments. So if one does not keep the commandments, does God see that as one who does not love Him?

 

[Edward]

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him

What translation is this? Mousing over it it says whoever does not believe, yet you wrote whoever does not obey. This is the one scripture I had trouble with that you posted, yet now the changing of that one word brings it into a whole nother perspective!

 

[About the Son of God]

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him

What translation is this? Mousing over it it says whoever does not believe, yet you wrote whoever does not obey. This is the one scripture I had trouble with that you posted, yet now the changing of that one word brings it into a whole nother perspective!

Hi Edward! His translation does reflect a real difference in the Greek.
http://www.biblos.com/john/3-36.htm ( απειθ-ων )

It says "is not subject" on the linked page, but if you compare the page I give below, and using the KJV, you can see "dis-obey" is a very reasonable translation of the word into English;

One caveat: obey means to listen to something and take it to heart; The English word obey comes from "ob-audra" in the Latin. It's not necessarily blind exacting robotic military obedience; eg: dis-obey really emphasizes an utter refusal to listen to something. eg: to be utterly Obstinate.

eg: Acts 26:19.
http://www.biblos.com/acts/26-19.htm ( απειθ-ης )

Therefore: I basically agree with his translation. Hope this helps.

 

[Atonement]

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him

What translation is this? Mousing over it it says whoever does not believe, yet you wrote whoever does not obey. This is the one scripture I had trouble with that you posted, yet now the changing of that one word brings it into a whole nother perspective!

I want to apologize Edward, it say's KJV and I thought that is what I posted - forgive me? Before I post Scriptures in the future, I will have to recheck the translation.. Thanks for pointing this out to me


God Bless you

edit - word in red

 

[Atonement]

It's fine that you disagree with me, I'm not going to debate this issue. I was hoping you would pay attention to the spirit.. But I see you rather be right, and you rather be heard, but not rather reflect on the possible damage this could be causing to the faith of others.. This is very sad to see!

Hi Atonement,

I'm sorry, but these words are quite rude and offensive for a few reasons.

1. You assume that you're hearing the Spirit, and I am not on the matter. As if I just need to assent to what you say and I am in alignment with the Spirit.
2. You assume that I replied back in disagreement merely so I can be "right." I did so rather, because I think you are wrongfully correcting me.
3. I've done damage to no ones faith, I reached out to questdriven to assure her I meant no such thing, and she replied back that it was fine.

Your attempts to correct my behavior are submitted under the authority of the Word which I find to be in disagreement with what you said, though I appreciated your kind tone earlier, it almost seems to be a guise now that I disagreed.

If you think quoting some of the more "hard sayings" of Jesus is damaging to some, then I suggest you reconsider your concept of what it is to be a disciple and Christian. I for one will not shy away from such things, and I say this not to try and assert some kind of superiority, but rather I would prefer the humble position. Which would be to point to Jesus' way and submit to that as truth, not twist his words to support my own view.

I am not necessarily saying you are absolutely twisting his words, but you are certainly changing his message to reflect something clearly not implied. Perhaps you'd think it more loving if I didn't call out my disagreement so strongly, but as I said earlier, love delights in the truth.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

Greetings to you in the love of Jesus Christ

I've not come to cause division among us or the brethen. I do not want to be quarrelsome with you or anyone, the Holy Spirit is not exemplified when doing so.

You said that my correction to you was "offensive" and for that I want to apologize and asking for forgiveness? It was not a post to be made to offend you or anyone. However, the correction still stands.

You may be right in what you have been teaching here, you may be 100% correct..

In all humbleness I have to say - I don't care how well you know the Word of God, how clearly you can explain it on the forums, how well you know Greek, nor how many master degrees you have in Biblical doctrine. If you don't express yourself out of love.. You have nothing! 1 Corinthians 13:2

I don't see much love in your post(s) on this thread. In fact if we were to go back and look at some of the responses made to you - I've read some the following --- "proud sinner," "I will pass on you," "You should think about how you express yourself," "difficulty following some of the discussion on this thread," "won't respond to the criticism" ... Just to name a few. This may or may not be pointed towards you Doulos Iesou, however, it's written on this thread. So why do I bring this out in the open?

You are talking to me in the following quote:

You assume that you're hearing the Spirit, and I am not on the matter. As if I just need to assent to what you say and I am in alignment with the Spirit.

My response:

Tell me what spirit are you in alignment with?

1 Corinthians 14:33 Spirit of confusion?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Spirit of division?
2 Timothy 2:24 quarrelsome spirit?

Clearly we see all of these spirits by the reactions of those that respond under you. Are you not able to see the same?

I'm coming to you in love -hard love- maybe, but in love none the less. All I asked was that you "let it go" because this "could" cause a stumbling block for some people.. That's all.. You could have taken this advice (in love) and been thoughtful of others and their walk with Christ and taken this to debate in the proper area where debates should go.

How many guest see this forum? As I wright this, there are 48 members signed in and 165 guest.. Guess what area has the most views right now? THIS ONE! How many of those are New Christians or coming here to seek answers because they have fragile faith? How many people come looking for answers because they question their Salvation? How many people read the General Area because they don't want to read the debates in the A&T section (my hand is now raised). Some of us pick and choose very carefully what threads we post under; I do this for a reason.

Again, I come to you in a spirit of love - I talk to people all the time, and people question their Salvation every day in this world, they question if they are truly Saved or not - this lie comes straight out of the pit from Hell. And it seems to me Doulos Iesou, unless someone comes right out and say's to you that they question their Salvation, you will disagree with me, and that's fine I suppose, but not in the best position to be in.

I will not respond under this thread again. I've said what I felt the Spirit has asked me to say, I've made it be known. You now have been given the power to choose how you will respond, I would hope that you take a day to reflect like I did... And no matter how you respond to this, LOVE is the primary spirit that we as believers should be serving one another in..

God Bless you my friend


[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION]- I'm asking for your forgiveness? I hijacked your thread and for this I'm truly sorry, I'm very sorry that it was done on this thread - a thread on hope, a thread on our Christian foundation, a thread on the Love shown from our Father, a thread on the wonderful blessing of Salvation.. Please forgive me brother?

 

[Drew]

So do you think that the moment that you say the sinners prayer that your name is written in the book of life? Just like that, instantly?

No doubt this will start a big fight and no one will be open to changing their minds. However, here goes:

Paul tells us in Romans 2 that final justification will be by good works. This is a text that many evangelicals do not know what to do with.

But Paul says a lot more, of course. In particular he tells us that, by faith alone, we are given the Spirit, and that Spirit will most assuredly transform us into the kind of person who will definitely pass the Romans 2 judgement of works. As long as we do not turn away. So in a certain sense, it is "as simple as that".

And, for the zillionth time, I am well aware of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am quite convinced it does not mean what many thinks it means. I can argue the point. And in all likelihood no one will truly engage that argument, either. Yes, I am in a cynical state today.

 

[Edward]

No doubt this will start a big fight and no one will be open to changing their minds. However, here goes:

Paul tells us in Romans 2 that final justification will be by good works. This is a text that many evangelicals do not know what to do with.

But Paul says a lot more, of course. In particular he tells us that, by faith alone, we are given the Spirit, and that Spirit will most assuredly transform us into the kind of person who will definitely pass the Romans 2 judgement of works. As long as we do not turn away. So in a certain sense, it is "as simple as that".

And, for the zillionth time, I am well aware of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am quite convinced it does not mean what many thinks it means.

I agree with this.

I didn't start this thread thinking it would start such a division. I read things give me concern and like to talk about them at times for everyone's edification. The concerns that I had did not shake my faith, nor make me want to pursue a works based salvation. Both side of this issue make good points, but it does not need to cause division among us.

I have studied the matter a little and also prayed about the issue and my spirit is at total peace with the question. In fact, both sides are essentially correct but some fail to realize how they mesh together. Drew is correct. It is as simple as that, and yet final justification will be based on works. This is what the spirit has shown me.

I think that the single most pertinent post in the whole thread was that of P31Woman (or was it Deborah?), and her post about David. The Lord searches the heart and justification is therein. Salvation is very easy and simple, with the key being the condition of ones heart and if in fact the repentance and belief is real or not. Anyone not understanding this at this point is highly encouraged to go to your knees in prayer and to ask for the wisdom and understanding to be able to perceive the truth. Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you.

In the Love of Christ,

Edward.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Greetings to you in the love of Jesus Christ

I've not come to cause division among us or the brethen. I do not want to be quarrelsome with you or anyone, the Holy Spirit is not exemplified when doing so.

You said that my correction to you was "offensive" and for that I want to apologize and asking for forgiveness? It was not a post to be made to offend you or anyone.

Hi Atonement,

I understand that, but I thought I should let you know as I don't think it is something you realized. You are forgiven.

However, the correction still stands.

You may be right in what you have been teaching here, you may be 100% correct..

In all humbleness I have to say - I don't care how well you know the Word of God, how clearly you can explain it on the forums, how well you know Greek, nor how many master degrees you have in Biblical doctrine. If you don't express yourself out of love.. You have nothing! 1 Corinthians 13:2

I don't see much love in your post(s) on this thread. In fact if we were to go back and look at some of the responses made to you - I've read some the following --- "proud sinner," "I will pass on you," "You should think about how you express yourself," "difficulty following some of the discussion on this thread," "won't respond to the criticism" ... Just to name a few. This may or may not be pointed towards you Doulos Iesou, however, it's written on this thread. So why do I bring this out in the open?

You know, I went back through all of my posts reading over each one to see if your objections is legitimate, and while I certainly don't praise and encourage every single person I responded to (I need to improve in this, as I am kind of a logically minded, matter of fact kind of person) I made an effort not to personally attack nor speak ill of any individuals posting. I may have called what they posted and said into question, and criticized it, but that is because I want to present an alternative to the ever increasing false teaching of Easy Believism that is taking over the Church.

I do not consider myself to be any kind of scholar on the matter, I have a working knowledge of the Original languages that grows as I progress with Christ. I don't have any Biblical degrees, I just have a passion for the Word of God and have been this way since I was saved reading the Bible and encountering the gospel. And I surely don't believe I'm God's gift to the forum, and the only one contending for what's really true.

I am a fallible man, and I try to be very specific and direct so that those who disagree with me may be able to understand what I have to say and choose to 1) not listen, 2) disagree, or 3) agree

My response:

Tell me what spirit are you in alignment with?

1 Corinthians 14:33 Spirit of confusion?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Spirit of division?
2 Timothy 2:24 quarrelsome spirit?

Clearly we see all of these spirits by the reactions of those that respond under you. Are you not able to see the same?

Well if you are going to use Scripture against me to correct me, then it should be used correctly.

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. 1 Corinthians 14:33(ESV)

In the context, Paul is talking about orderly worship, that those who prophesy should not do so all at once and speak over each other, but rather the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets and they can all wait one by one to give a prophecy. In fact "confusion" almost misrepresents what the Greek word here means, which is of course the opposite of order, which is disorder, unstable and out of control.

This isn't referring to someone being confused as to what a person is saying, many people were confused with what Paul was saying, even Peter said much of what he said was hard to understand and people twisted it to their own destruction. Is Paul then operating in a spirit of confusion? No, it's just sometimes getting to the truth of the matter takes a little more work and little more thinking than some are willing to do.

I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13(ESV)

My purpose is not to be intentionally divisive, I do not get a kick out of disagreeing with a fellow brother in the Lord and it is sad tragedy that has plagued the Church since the 1st Century so it seems. However, this fact remains and it is that "Doctrine Divides," we can easily just camp on a certain group of texts and talk about the love of God and the texts that focus on assurance. Even so that we disregard the texts that speak about how difficult the journey of salvation is, that it is to lose one's life and see that they have found it. To makes Jesus Christ their all and only hope and not just in word or "belief" but a believe that evinces a deep change by the Spirit in the person's heart so that they are enabled to radically live for Jesus in holiness, truth and love if only they'd obey.

Also, Jesus himself brought much division and so did Paul. One instance he even set the Pharisee's against the Sadducees on purpose in order to get them to discuss the resurrection of the dead (which he knew they disagreed on). Or he and Barnabus even disagreed so severely that they had to part ways.

The truth on this matter my friend, especially when it comes to salvation (which is an eternal issue) is far to important to concede on and ignore the teachings of God's Word. We cannot afford to kill the truth in the streets for the sake of a cheap peace.

Disagreement is not hateful, or unloving, or disrespectful. Indeed for some it might be the most loving thing one can do, to speak honestly on a difficult subject.

This kind of spirit that you are showing is quite common in the current debates in our culture on Abortion and Same Sex Marriage, we would remain silent rather than "offend" and leave them in their own error.

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 2 Timothy 2:24(ESV)

In this context Paul is admonishing Timothy, and laying out what a worker approved by God looks like, and how he handles disagreements. I must submit that I sometimes can be a little pugnacious and eager to debate, sometimes lacking in patience and gentleness (it doesn't help that my tone over the internet can not be understood generally). That is why I put it in my signature to regularly remind myself to exemplify this, and live according to it. Often it leads to conviction on my side and continual repentance and reformation of character by God's grace of course.

I understand that I could have responded in a more patient and kind way in my posts, though I do not regret speaking on the matters that were somewhat challenging.

I'm coming to you in love -hard love- maybe, but in love none the less. All I asked was that you "let it go" because this "could" cause a stumbling block for some people.. That's all.. You could have taken this advice (in love) and been thoughtful of others and their walk with Christ and taken this to debate in the proper area where debates should go.

This is sad, ultimately what this means is this:

"You are only warranted to speak here and offer your opinion as long as it, a) offends no one, b) everyone generally agrees with it, and c) stop talking about it when we tell you."

This is too reminiscent of our culture which seeks to cut out the voice of the gospel in our culture, to invalidate the message of Scripture and only talk about what's agreed upon and works.

Jesus' words are indeed challenging, and people NEED to hear ALL of what he has said, not just the parts we in our own selfish (not necessarily speaking of you or anyone in particular) desires wish to assert. There are many here who perhaps are living a completely ungodly life and stake all their assurance on praying a prayer, and some here would seek to give such a person assurance of salvation when the Bible would NEVER warrant such a thing. It is not loving to tell a cancer patient that he is well, love as I have stated over and over again, delights in the truth.

I cannot delight when I see the false teaching of easy believism represented, without at least some acknowledgement of the difficulty and radical calling of being Jesus disciple

How many guest see this forum? As I wright this, there are 48 members signed in and 165 guest.. Guess what area has the most views right now? THIS ONE! How many of those are New Christians or coming here to seek answers because they have fragile faith? How many people come looking for answers because they question their Salvation? How many people read the General Area because they don't want to read the debates in the A&T section (my hand is now raised). Some of us pick and choose very carefully what threads we post under; I do this for a reason.

Who then decides what should be discussed and what should not be discussed? Because I disagree am I unwelcome to state my opinions and numerous Scriptures with which I object? Would we rather deceive those who are weaker in their faith to misrepresent a teaching so that later on as they learn (as I did) they would encounter this teaching of Jesus and be angry and perplexed that I had been taught wrongly.

I have reached out to the poster you were concerned about and made sure I nothing I said was being taken that way, and if there is anyone else reading they can talk to me personally and ask me questions about what I have been saying.

Again, I come to you in a spirit of love - I talk to people all the time, and people question their Salvation every day in this world, they question if they are truly Saved or not - this lie comes straight out of the pit from Hell. And it seems to me Doulos Iesou, unless someone comes right out and say's to you that they question their Salvation, you will disagree with me, and that's fine I suppose, but not in the best position to be in.

Should we give an unrepentant homosexual assurance of salvation because they once prayed a prayer? Not everyone should be given assurance, and to say that to do this in general is a lie from the pit of Hell is rather extreme. We seek to encourage those in the faith yes, and sometimes that manifests itself in the loving message of the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified and risen for our sins and salvation. Yet, other times it comes with calling our Christian brothers and ourselves to radically life lives of purpose for the glory of God and for the sake of the gospel message being advanced.

God loves every person reading this forum where they are at, and even at their worst. But he loves them enough not to leave them there, and the grace of God isn't just to cover up their blemishes, but to really.. actually make them to be more like Christ by the power of that same Spirit who rose him from the dead. That's what I want to see preached when God's grace advances

I will not respond under this thread again. I've said what I felt the Spirit has asked me to say, I've made it be known. You now have been given the power to choose how you will respond, I would hope that you take a day to reflect like I did... And no matter how you respond to this, LOVE is the primary spirit that we as believers should be serving one another in..

God Bless you my friend

I may greatly disagree with much of what you have said in this thread (though certainly not all of it), but I understand we should cut the conversation short here and if you wish to discuss it further we can do that privately. I just would like you to know that for me, to betray my convictions and concede to some of the hyper-grace teachings offered in this thread would be to do a disservice to those reading.

I respond and disagree, because I care and love the truth as well as those who would read this.

Blessings in Christ to your brother,
Servant of Jesus

 

[George Muller]

Childlike faith and the simplicty of Christ is the true gospel.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

How did satan deceive Eve? he made complex Gods simple commandment.

1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Not always easy, but very simple

 

[Edward]

Childlike faith and the simplicty of Christ is the true gospel.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

How did satan deceive Eve? he made complex Gods simple commandment.

1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Not always easy, but very simple

George gets it. Very simple yet our walk with Christ may be (promised to be) hard. I am learning to be able to praise the Lord upon trials and tribulation. It is a purification process that is indeed high heat. It keeps us clinging to the Lord for His strength, and praising Him for the work that He does within us (if we do but perceive!)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

George gets it. Very simple yet our walk with Christ may be (promised to be) hard. I am learning to be able to praise the Lord upon trials and tribulation. It is a purification process that is indeed high heat. It keeps us clinging to the Lord for His strength, and praising Him for the work that He does within us (if we do but perceive!)

Very true, amen to this post!

 

[George Muller]

Childlike faith and the simplicty of Christ is the true gospel.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

How did satan deceive Eve? he made complex Gods simple commandment.

1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Not always easy, but very simple

George gets it. Very simple yet our walk with Christ may be (promised to be) hard. I am learning to be able to praise the Lord upon trials and tribulation. It is a purification process that is indeed high heat. It keeps us clinging to the Lord for His strength, and praising Him for the work that He does within us (if we do but perceive!)

Amen it sounds like we are on the same page?
I would say even in all the trials of faith, the true yoke of Christ is easy and His burden is light. It is mans religion that attempts lay heavy burdens. When I compare my past life in the world with the life i have in Christ, I see and know that it is a life lived in the world that is hard. When one commits their way to the Lord and decides that only He has life, the path is clear and the trials are the places that we press into the kingdom.

Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(KJV)

 

[Vaccine]

I am sorry. You are correct, paradise is the correct word. I have discovered I have a lot to learn about Christianity. I will put more though into it before I post.

 

[P31Woman]

Greetings to you as well brother!

I have to disagree with this assessment.

Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” Genesis 11:4(ESV)

The people were wanting to:

1. Make a tower with it's top in the heavens, this is referring to the sky.
2. Make a name for themselves. (they weren't seeking God, they were seeking to exalt themselves)
3. To avoid being dispersed.

Nothing in the text to make on believe they were trying to reach up to God, this is just a famous Sunday School teaching to try to argue against works righteousness.

I have to greatly disagree with this assessment here, especially when it comes to saying, "this is in no way talking about his salvation, it being hard to obtain his salvation."

This context isn't the best to examine the text as it is a solitary teaching with no noticeable relation to the flow of the discourse. However, let's examine Luke's account:

He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:22-24(ESV)

In Luke 13, the disciples ask Jesus this question: "Lord, will those who are SAVED be few?" This is obviously setting the state for a question about salvation. Jesus then, responds with a very similar statement to Matthew 7:13-14, where he says: "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." The Greek word for "Strive" here is Ἀγωνίζεσθε and it means to struggle, it is used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25 to describe an athlete attempting to win a race.

To say it's been limited to simply his death, burial and resurrection here, as if other paths have been eliminated and now there is only a narrow truth and way to get to the gate is not consistent with the language used, nor the emphasis found in the Greek discourse that highlights the difficulty of the road and entrance to the gate.

The Christian life is hard, and we need to be taking up our Cross daily and walking in the Spirit. Serving others through love and in humbleness. Many fail in their walk with God which is why Paul emphasizes that we need to keep running the race and endure until the end Hebrews 12:1, 2 Timothy 4:7-8, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, 2 Timothy 2:5, Acts 20:24, Philippians 3:12-14, Galatians 5:7 - As we can see Paul was very clear about this and wanted the Church to know that it will be difficult to obtain (to keep going), especially when our friends, family, spouse, kids, coworkers, boss etc; are all weighing heavy on our shoulders. This does not include our political rights that we're facing as Christians, the persecution of the Church on a Global scale.

Yes, I agree. Where you err is disassociating all of these words with salvation, the one who endures to the end will be saved.

The topic at hand was a simple one - So do you think that the moment that you say the sinners prayer that your name is written in the book of life? Just like that, instantly?

I have provided Scripture about this on this thread (Page 2 #25)

I understand that you want to be heard and voice your opinion. You have every right to do so and I would never tell anyone not to post there thoughts. But being mature spiritually, we should also know when we should restrain ourselves in case we cause a stumbling block in someone's faith.

I do not view it as a disservice to tell people of the difficulties of being a disciple of Jesus, Jesus himself who is more wise and spiritually mature than both of us put together (and then some) had no problem with this. In fact I think we greatly err when we falsely tell people that all they need to pray a prayer and they are sealed into the kingdom guaranteed, without speaking about the necessity to endure to the end.

This quote above alone should have been enough, to let it go - to restrain ourselves, and/or take the idea of this theology about what you may or may not believe what the Scripture Matthew 7:14 is referring to in the Apologetics & Theology section. It breaks my heart to see that we have someone here who's faith is fragile and they have to read this thread in the General forum. All I ask, is that you and all of us (myself included), be alert to those around us, because our post(s) impact peoples lives.

Well, all they have to do really is go open their Bible to generally any place in the gospels and listen to what our Lord has REALLY said.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:13-14

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:26-27

So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33

But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Love delights in the TRUTH my friend, and these were not spoken simply to the spiritually mature, but is said in many cases to the many crowds that come around Jesus. Following Jesus is difficult and indeed we will have many trials and tribulations in the world, but we should take heart for Jesus has overcome the world! And that our current sufferings are not worth comparing to the future glory that is to be had.

I hope you have a very blessed day
God Bless you brother

You as well.

Hey man good post! I don't agree with you but you are doing your homework! I work and don't have the time to devote to major biblical debates. I think this needs to be moved to the apologitics section of the forum. Most talk here tends to be light in nature and many of us had to find those answers many years ago and are more into the living out part of our faith. I think you are in the "hunger and thrist" part of your sanctification process. That's great fun! Loved that part of my walk with the Lord.

See the part in bold. This is the verse that popped into mind when I read it.

This is from John 6

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>Jesus answered them, “Very truly, I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.” <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” <sup class="versenum">29 </sup>Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>Then Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>For the bread of God is that which<sup class="footnote" value='[g]'></sup> comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” <sup class="versenum">34 </sup>They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

<sup class="versenum">35 </sup>Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. <sup class="versenum">36 </sup>But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. <sup class="versenum">37 </sup>Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; <sup class="versenum">38 </sup>for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. <sup class="versenum">39 </sup>And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. <sup class="versenum">40</sup>This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”

Notice they asked "works" of God and Jesus replied the "work" of God....no S only one work.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I really like this post. The one thing I add is that Romans 10:13-14, is that each of us are called to share the Gospel. My preacher in this case was an long time Baptist lady. She brought me the Gospel.

So Deborah, are you a preacher now?

Tell me about it.