Is Jehovah's Witness a Christian belief?

[RND]

A belief in the trinity doesn't make one a 'christian'. A 'protestant' or 'catholic' sure but not a 'christian.' JW's could be called christians just like any other religion that believes in Christ.

A definition of 'christian':

- relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
- a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination
- following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ

So unless we are under the impression that only catholics, eastern orthodox, and protestants are the only one's that can be 'christians' I would say anyone who falls under the definition above would be considered a 'christian'.

So, if I say that I live in Springfield and someone else says they that live in Springfield too, then that MUST mean they live in the same city, right? If there is more than one Springfield, then further details must be given to determine if it's the same Springfield that you live in. My point being, one can say "I'm a Christian" and someone else can say "I'm a Christian", and not be following the same Jesus. The Jesus of the New Testament is fully God and fully man, co-equal and co-eternal w/ the Father. If someone claims to follow a Jesus that isn't fully God and fully man, then they follow a DIFFERENT Jesus; therefore they are not Christian (Galatians 1:6-9).

Excellent analogy.

 

[RND]

The false teachings of Mormon's:

- There are many godsBut only ONE TRUE GOD
- The trinity is three separate godsCould be taken this way but I would have to know what this means to the believers. I don't believe in the trinity plain and simple, I also don't put another belief in its place.
- Jesus and Satan are spiritual brothers I wouldn't agree with this belief.
- God had physical relations with Mary to make JesusAgain I would disagree.- You must shed your own blood for the forgivness of some sinsNever heard this belief before but again wrong with what the bible teaches.
- Good works are necessary for the forgivness of sinsthey should be evident so somewhat true

False teachings of JW's

- Their church is the prophet of GodSame belief as christians
- Only their church will be savedSame belief as christians
- Jesus was an angel who became a manNo more wrong than teaching that Jesus was God Himself, in my opinion
- Jesus did not rise physically from the deadWhy must this be true? I believe Jesus rose from the dead but whether or not this is any different than us being resurrected through Christ is a matter of opinion.
- There is no trinityI agree
- Good works are necessary for the forgivness of sinsNot a bad belief, as they should follow suite.

There are many others. Neither of these cults are a Christian religion.

So you would fall under the group that says only catholics, eastern orthodox, and protestants are essentially 'christians'. What about the beliefs in these groups that are wrong? Only based on your opinion others are not 'christian'. I am not a mormon or a JW but if one claims to follow that religion and they demonstrate God's love for others why would I think they are not my brother or sister? Just because they believe different then me? I believe I have brothers and sisters in Christ from all walks of life, muslims, christians, athiests, buddhists, etc. Jesus didn't die for the just the sins of the 'christians'. We must realize we are all equal in this life.

This has nothing to do w/ equality on a humanitarian level. It has everything to do with TRUTH. Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Christians CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT. Why? Each belief system contradicts the other. There must be one that is true.

Another excellent summation.

 

[rEVOLVEr]

This has nothing to do w/ equality on a humanitarian level. It has everything to do with TRUTH. Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Christians CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT. Why? Each belief system contradicts the other. There must be one that is true.

A belief is a belief is a belief. Can't all be right? According to your own words, none of them can be right because "Each belief system contradicts the other."
What exactly do you mean by "TRUTH"?
"There must be one that is true." <---------- This is where problems start.
You will never hear a Muslim say "Yeah, Allah is great but your God is better."
Same goes to all religions.
BTW, nice touch writing all religions with a capital letter, except atheists. To me that means, you accept the fact that atheism is not a belief system. ;)

 

[Armor of God]

For anyone doubting me, I can document everything:

The false teachings of Mormon's:

(1) There are many gods
(2) The trinity is three separate gods
(3) Jesus and Satan are spiritual brothers
(4) God had physical relations with Mary to make Jesus
(5) You must shed your own blood for the forgivness of some sins
(6) Good works are necessary for the forgivness of sins

False teachings of JW's

(7) Their church is the prophet of God
(8) Only their church will be saved
(9) Jesus was an angel who became a man
(10) Jesus did not rise physically from the dead
(11) There is no trinity
(12) Good works are necessary for the forgivness of sins

1 - Morman Doctrine by Bruce McConkie P 163
2 - Ibid P319
3 - Ibid P129, 589
4 - Ibid P741-742
5 - Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Smith Vol I P135
6 - Articles of Faith P79
7 - The Watchtower April 1 1972 P197, 200
8 - Holy Spirit Feb 15 1979 P 30
9 -Aid to Bible Understanding P 1152; New heavens and New Earth P 30
10 - You Can Live Forever P143,144,172
11 - Let God Be True P101
12 - Studies In Scripture Vol I P150,152

 

[Armor of God]

This has nothing to do w/ equality on a humanitarian level. It has everything to do with TRUTH. Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Christians CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT. Why? Each belief system contradicts the other. There must be one that is true.

A belief is a belief is a belief. Can't all be right? According to your own words, none of them can be right because "Each belief system contradicts the other."
What exactly do you mean by "TRUTH"?
"There must be one that is true." <---------- This is where problems start.
You will never hear a Muslim say "Yeah, Allah is great but your God is better."
Same goes to all religions.
BTW, nice touch writing all religions with a capital letter, except atheists. To me that means, you accept the fact that atheism is not a belief system. ;)

What toddm said is that they all can't be right but he isn't implying that one can't be proven true while the others can be proven false.

The difference between Christianity and the others is the following key points:

- All prophesy in the bible has happened 100% accurately. Some remains unfulfilled until the second coming of Jesus but everything to this point has happened as described. Only the one and true God can be 100% correct.
- The text through the dead sea scrolls, Septuagint, Vulgate, Alexandrian and Vatican manuscripts, along with several others show the text has been maintained about 98-99% to the originals.
- Over 40 non biblical sources confirm the events of the bible as actually described (Josephus, Philo, many others)
- There are almost 40 authors that contributed to the bible over a 1500 year period and they all tell a consistent story.

No other religion can make those kind of claims. All others besides Christianity fall apart at one or more of the points I raise above (prophesy, manuscript evidence, historical accuracy, logical soundness).

 

[RND]

[A belief is a belief is a belief. Can't all be right?

Not all beliefs are the same so no, they can't all be right.

None of them can be right because "Each belief system contradicts the other."
What exactly do you mean by "TRUTH"?

The truth that is Jesus Christ.

"There must be one that is true." <---------- This is where problems start.

Well, Jesus said His word would divide.

You will never hear a Muslim say "Yeah, Allah is great but your God is better."

That's because the God Christian's preach is not a God most Muslims would want to know. Muslims, generally, abstain from alcohol and pork - yet many Christian's say these are no big deal. Wouldn't be more refreshing for Christian's to obey the Torah so that they could related better with Muslims?

Same goes to all religions.
BTW, nice touch writing all religions with a capital letter, except atheists. To me that means, you accept the fact that atheism is not a belief system. ;)

Atheism is a belief system. They "believe" God doesn't exist.

 

[jasoncran]

they wont be accomadating like you would be seekandlisten

one cant give blood or recieve organs that have blood in them, as if you did and wont repent even to save your child, you get kicked out.

no military or policeman allowed
or no college , it used to be.

a cult, nah

You're raising a few very interesting questions.
I will ask a JW friend of mine to see what he says.

keep in mind i was essientially raised in that, and some may change as last i attended kingdom hall was in 91 before i enlisted.

 

[rEVOLVEr]

they wont be accomadating like you would be seekandlisten

one cant give blood or recieve organs that have blood in them, as if you did and wont repent even to save your child, you get kicked out.

no military or policeman allowed
or no college , it used to be.

a cult, nah

You're raising a few very interesting questions.
I will ask a JW friend of mine to see what he says.

keep in mind i was essientially raised in that, and some may change as last i attended kingdom hall was in 91 before i enlisted.

OK, thanks.
I know that the son of that JW friend goes to college studying to be a police officer.

 

[jasoncran]

keep in mind like all things there those that are faithful and those that arent. i know some jw's as well,in fact i see one on my morning paper route and will ask him on wednesday, that's when he works.

jason

 

[toddm]

This has nothing to do w/ equality on a humanitarian level. It has everything to do with TRUTH. Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Christians CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT. Why? Each belief system contradicts the other. There must be one that is true.

A belief is a belief is a belief. Can't all be right? According to your own words, none of them can be right because "Each belief system contradicts the other."

I never said NONE of them could be right. I said only ONE can be true. You can't believe whatever you want and then assume it's the same thing. If I tell you that I'm married to Jennifer, and you say "I'm married to Jennifer", then that doesn't mean we're married to the same person.

What exactly do you mean by "TRUTH"?

Spoken like a true postmodernist. I mean that there is an absolute true faith that stands up to historical, archaeological, and miraculous testimony.

"There must be one that is true." <---------- This is where problems start.

No, this is where problems cease and truth is revealed.

You will never hear a Muslim say "Yeah, Allah is great but your God is better."

You will once the Holy Spirit changes their nature.

BTW, nice touch writing all religions with a capital letter, except atheists. To me that means, you accept the fact that atheism is not a belief system. ;)

Wow. Nice insight. Any true atheist would argue they don't have a belief system, but that has nothing to do w/ the fact that I overlooked the capitalizing of a word. I try better not to offend the Grammar Police next time.

 

[rEVOLVEr]

This has nothing to do w/ equality on a humanitarian level. It has everything to do with TRUTH. Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and Christians CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT. Why? Each belief system contradicts the other. There must be one that is true.

A belief is a belief is a belief. Can't all be right? According to your own words, none of them can be right because "Each belief system contradicts the other."

I never said NONE of them could be right. I said only ONE can be true. You can't believe whatever you want and then assume it's the same thing. If I tell you that I'm married to Jennifer, and you say "I'm married to Jennifer", then that doesn't mean we're married to the same person.

What exactly do you mean by "TRUTH"?

Spoken like a true postmodernist. I mean that there is an absolute true faith that stands up to historical, archaeological, and miraculous testimony.

[quote:jxiylan4]"There must be one that is true." <---------- This is where problems start.

No, this is where problems cease and truth is revealed.

You will never hear a Muslim say "Yeah, Allah is great but your God is better."

You will once the Holy Spirit changes their nature.

BTW, nice touch writing all religions with a capital letter, except atheists. To me that means, you accept the fact that atheism is not a belief system. ;)

Wow. Nice insight. Any true atheist would argue they don't have a belief system, but that has nothing to do w/ the fact that I overlooked the capitalizing of a word. I try better not to offend the Grammar Police next time.[/quote:jxiylan4]

In short, I really don't want to reply because we're getting off topic and I don't want to get in trouble for that. However, I can and will answer if the admins don't mind. :fight

 

[seekandlisten]

So, if I say that I live in Springfield and someone else says they that live in Springfield too, then that MUST mean they live in the same city, right? If there is more than one Springfield, then further details must be given to determine if it's the same Springfield that you live in. My point being, one can say "I'm a Christian" and someone else can say "I'm a Christian", and not be following the same Jesus. The Jesus of the New Testament is fully God and fully man, co-equal and co-eternal w/ the Father. If someone claims to follow a Jesus that isn't fully God and fully man, then they follow a DIFFERENT Jesus; therefore they are not Christian (Galatians 1:6-9).

First off, Springfield is a 'physical' place that we can quite easily verify the basic facts to prove that their are indeed two different Springfields and they are not the same 'physical' place. Irrelevant analogy.

Now I find it interesting the passage of scripture you used to back up your claim that Jesus is equal to the Father and if you don't believe this that this passage of another gospel applies. Back it up a few verses. Twice it refers to Jesus and the Father being separate.

Galatians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle - sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father...."

Galatians 1:3 "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ....'

In further reference to this thread look at Galatians 2:11-21

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

 

[seekandlisten]

What toddm said is that they all can't be right but he isn't implying that one can't be proven true while the others can be proven false.

In reality none can be proven true so that would also mean that none can be proven false other then by basing what is false off of claims of other beliefs. Unless it comes down to actual physical evidence then all religions fall short, even christianity. It takes faith to believe God and it also takes faith to believe in a religion.

The difference between Christianity and the others is the following key points:

- All prophesy in the bible has happened 100% accurately. Some remains unfulfilled until the second coming of Jesus but everything to this point has happened as described. Only the one and true God can be 100% correct.
- The text through the dead sea scrolls, Septuagint, Vulgate, Alexandrian and Vatican manuscripts, along with several others show the text has been maintained about 98-99% to the originals.
- Over 40 non biblical sources confirm the events of the bible as actually described (Josephus, Philo, many others)
- There are almost 40 authors that contributed to the bible over a 1500 year period and they all tell a consistent story.

No other religion can make those kind of claims. All others besides Christianity fall apart at one or more of the points I raise above (prophesy, manuscript evidence, historical accuracy, logical soundness).

Seeing as this topic is about whether or not JW's would fall under the category of a 'christian' belief so pointing out the 'false' teachings is not really the point. Also these 'facts' here can be applied to more than just christianity. There is a difference in beliefs between catholics and protestants, baptists and pentecostals, universalists and mennonites, etc. but that doesn't knock them out from under the heading of the religion of christianity.

My question in these threads is what kind of witness is it when a JW or Mormon comes across these types of threads and sees the 'christians' mocking or demeaning their religion? How does it make you feel when someone attacks your religion? Treat others as you would want to be treated.

 

[toddm]

So, if I say that I live in Springfield and someone else says they that live in Springfield too, then that MUST mean they live in the same city, right? If there is more than one Springfield, then further details must be given to determine if it's the same Springfield that you live in. My point being, one can say "I'm a Christian" and someone else can say "I'm a Christian", and not be following the same Jesus. The Jesus of the New Testament is fully God and fully man, co-equal and co-eternal w/ the Father. If someone claims to follow a Jesus that isn't fully God and fully man, then they follow a DIFFERENT Jesus; therefore they are not Christian (Galatians 1:6-9).

First off, Springfield is a 'physical' place that we can quite easily verify the basic facts to prove that their are indeed two different Springfields and they are not the same 'physical' place. Irrelevant analogy.

Now I find it interesting the passage of scripture you used to back up your claim that Jesus is equal to the Father and if you don't believe this that this passage of another gospel applies. Back it up a few verses. Twice it refers to Jesus and the Father being separate.

Galatians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle - sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father...."

Galatians 1:3 "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ....'

In further reference to this thread look at Galatians 2:11-21

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

No, what is irrelevant is the fact that Springfield is a physical place. I'm not going to debate on Trinitarian matters here because that is not what the topic was about.

My point was this - if someone says "I'm married to Jennifer" and someone else says "I'm married to Jennifer too!" Then does that mean that they are the same person?? The fact that we're speaking physically here is irrelevant because God is personal. How can someone say that "I believe in Jesus that is co-equal and co-eternal w/ the Father" and someone else says "I believe in Jesus that is NOT co-eternal and co-equal w/ the Father" and it still be the same person?? Again, that's like me saying that I'm married to Jennifer with brown hair and is 5'7", and someone else saying they are married to Jennifer w/ blonde hair and is 5'2". They obviously can't be the same person. Jesus that is God, and Jesus that is "a god" are two completely different persons.

 

[seekandlisten]

No, what is irrelevant is the fact that Springfield is a physical place. I'm not going to debate on Trinitarian matters here because that is not what the topic was about.

My point was this - if someone says "I'm married to Jennifer" and someone else says "I'm married to Jennifer too!" Then does that mean that they are the same person?? The fact that we're speaking physically here is irrelevant because God is personal. How can someone say that "I believe in Jesus that is co-equal and co-eternal w/ the Father" and someone else says "I believe in Jesus that is NOT co-eternal and co-equal w/ the Father" and it still be the same person?? Again, that's like me saying that I'm married to Jennifer with brown hair and is 5'7", and someone else saying they are married to Jennifer w/ blonde hair and is 5'2". They obviously can't be the same person. Jesus that is God, and Jesus that is "a god" are two completely different persons.

The point is you can't use 'physical' terms in an analogy about 'spiritual' matters. We cannot 'prove' God exists plain and simple. That is why we have this thing called faith.

You are pretty much saying that JW's are not a 'christian' belief because of the 'supposed fact' that Jesus is God. That would be more an issue of JW vs Protestant views. Both still fall under 'christianity'. You believe Jesus is equal to the Father, I don't yet I know we are talking about the same Jesus. You just have a different opinion of him.

 

[toddm]

No, what is irrelevant is the fact that Springfield is a physical place. I'm not going to debate on Trinitarian matters here because that is not what the topic was about.

My point was this - if someone says "I'm married to Jennifer" and someone else says "I'm married to Jennifer too!" Then does that mean that they are the same person?? The fact that we're speaking physically here is irrelevant because God is personal. How can someone say that "I believe in Jesus that is co-equal and co-eternal w/ the Father" and someone else says "I believe in Jesus that is NOT co-eternal and co-equal w/ the Father" and it still be the same person?? Again, that's like me saying that I'm married to Jennifer with brown hair and is 5'7", and someone else saying they are married to Jennifer w/ blonde hair and is 5'2". They obviously can't be the same person. Jesus that is God, and Jesus that is "a god" are two completely different persons.

The point is you can't use 'physical' terms in an analogy about 'spiritual' matters. We cannot 'prove' God exists plain and simple. That is why we have this thing called faith.

You are pretty much saying that JW's are not a 'christian' belief because of the 'supposed fact' that Jesus is God. That would be more an issue of JW vs Protestant views. Both still fall under 'christianity'. You believe Jesus is equal to the Father, I don't yet I know we are talking about the same Jesus. You just have a different opinion of him.

It's not MY OPINION, it's what Scripture tells us. It's the same as saying "I believe God is eternal" and someone else saying "I believe God is NOT eternal". Both can't be right and both can't be talking about the same God. You can't claim to know Jesus if the Jesus you know contradicts Scripture.

 

[RND]

The point is you can't use 'physical' terms in an analogy about 'spiritual' matters.

Who said?! Jesus did it all the time! They are called parables! Oh, my! :biglaugh

We cannot 'prove' God exists plain and simple. That is why we have this thing called faith.

Your faith IS the proof!

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

You are pretty much saying that JW's are not a 'christian' belief because of the 'supposed fact' that Jesus is God.

Jesus Himself claimed He was God so it's not a 'supposed fact.'

Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus was telling the man that by calling Him 'good' He was calling Him God!!!!!!

That would be more an issue of JW vs Protestant views. Both still fall under 'christianity'.

If someone doesn't believe Jesus is God they they aren't part of the Christian faith. This isn't a case of being "a little bit pregant". One either believes Jesus Christ is God or they don't.

You believe Jesus is equal to the Father, I don't yet I know we are talking about the same Jesus.

You aren't talking about the same Jesus. Jesus states, plainly, He is one with the Father.

You just have a different opinion of him.

You can't be a little pregnant! Reject the deity of Christ and you reject Him as your Savior.

John 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

 

[seekandlisten]

You are pretty much saying that JW's are not a 'christian' belief because of the 'supposed fact' that Jesus is God. That would be more an issue of JW vs Protestant views. Both still fall under 'christianity'. You believe Jesus is equal to the Father, I don't yet I know we are talking about the same Jesus. You just have a different opinion of him.

It's not MY OPINION, it's what Scripture tells us. It's the same as saying "I believe God is eternal" and someone else saying "I believe God is NOT eternal". Both can't be right and both can't be talking about the same God. You can't claim to know Jesus if the Jesus you know contradicts Scripture.

The Jesus I know does not contradict scripture but lets keep that for another topic. This one is whether or not JW is a 'christian' belief. Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, JW's, etc. would all fall under the religion of 'christianity'. Whether their beliefs differ or not doesn't matter.

 

[rEVOLVEr]

The Jesus I know does not contradict scripture but lets keep that for another topic. This one is whether or not JW is a 'christian' belief. Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, JW's, etc. would all fall under the religion of 'christianity'. Whether their beliefs differ or not doesn't matter.

Short and sweet answer. I like it.

 

[RND]

Whether their beliefs differ or not doesn't matter.

It matter greatly and that is the danger of the tremendous error you are perpetuating.