Is Rape just relatively wrong? Or ABSOLUTELY WRONG?

[jasoncran]

danus, that philosophy is i want to sin and not feel guilty for it. we all lust and justify that pet sin. i have.

 

[Danus]

danus, that philosophy is i want to sin and not feel guilty for it. we all lust and justify that pet sin. i have.

Yep, but getting them to admit it...you know? Even "moral relativist" don't believe in their own philosophy when it comes right down to trying to prove it. They can't.

I can listen to atheist all day and find understanding with them. I was one at one time. The thing about absolute morality is that it proves itself. I just hate to see someone let it prove itself without giving them the opportunity to consider it.

The only advantage relative morality has is that can't prove itself, it does not have to and it's only good up to the point where absolute morality wins as it always does.

 

[adam332]

the problem with moral relativism is chiefly this in a nut shell.

It is I feel what is right or wrong.
and he who has the biggest army makes the rules.

that will stir things up.

Exactly.

The guys in the video kept saying morality is what the majority decides. That kind of pure democracy is dangerous. 51% of the people can tell 49% what to do. Like they say democracy, is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. That same mentality led him to believe it was ok to rape in a majority decision, 2 men, 1 woman.

Adam

 

[happyjoy]

Is it complicated?
Wrong is unrighteous anger, envy, jealousy, miss placed sorrow or regret, greed,arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, pride,superiority, or ego.

Right is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

Wrong is guilt, or regret while right is peace love and serenity? That sounds like moral relativism to me.

I am not trying to make you upset, but if you can't see our morality has changed in the past 4000 years then it is because you are deluding yourself. There have been very major shifts in our morality in such areas as slavery, polygamy, woman's rights, how we conduct ourselves during war plus many more.

 

[jasoncran]

polygamy is only illegal in this country simply because of taxation issues. it's legal im most muslims countries. since your into gay rights, it wont be hard to accept the polygamist, as it as they say consenting adults.

 

[logical bob]

I can't say that I could kill a child, but let's go back to your original question for just a bit.......

No, this is important. Since you say that there was a time when child killing was the right thing for the Israelites to do, is your inability to do it a moral weakness? If you'd been there in the days of Numbers would you have failed to carry out the command? Would you have sinned by your failure?

This is not about how you feel, or I feel about killing kids or rape. It's about Right and Wrong.

I say that killing captive children in cold blood is wrong. The source of your morality is a God who once sanctioned precisely such killing. Therefore you can't say that killing captive children is always wrong. If you maintain that today it would be wrong then you're a moral relativist.

 

[happyjoy]

polygamy is only illegal in this country simply because of taxation issues. it's legal im most muslims countries. since your into gay rights, it wont be hard to accept the polygamist, as it as they say consenting adults.

I will need to see a source on the polygamy is illegal because of tax reasons. I contend that the Christian view of the morality of polygamy has changed.

Why is it hard for you to understand that whether something is right or wrong depends on the specific circumstances of what occurred.

Another way to think about it. Absolute morality is the same kind of thinking as zero tolerance in schools. No drugs or weapons period. All punishment for any infraction the same regardless or circumstance. Get caught with a baby aspirin.... Expelled. Or bring a water gun to school.... Expelled. God is smarter than to expect moral absolutism.

 

[Free]

Why is it hard for you to understand that whether something is right or wrong depends on the specific circumstances of what occurred.

Because that is not the case. Morality isn't determined by who says so or by how many say so or depending on the circumstances. Rape isn't okay under certain circumstances and okay under others.

Your statement is self-defeating since you would be the determiner of what is acceptable or not under the specific circumstances--you would be imposing your morality.

Something is wrong because it is wrong, regardless of what people think. Differing views or a change in views do not make moral relativism true. No one can live consistently in the belief that morals are relative, no one. In any given circumstance you will behave as though morals are absolute, that what you believe to be right or wrong is the proper view of that circumstance, not anyone else's view who may happen to be involved.

Moral relativism would mean that we could not say a murderer was wrong for what he did but that what Hitler did to the Jews was okay and that we should leave the pedophile alone and let him do what he wants.

 

[happyjoy]

Why is it hard for you to understand that whether something is right or wrong depends on the specific circumstances of what occurred.

Because that is not the case. Morality isn't determined by who says so or by how many say so or depending on the circumstances. Rape isn't okay under certain circumstances and okay under others.

Your statement is self-defeating since you would be the determiner of what is acceptable or not under the specific circumstances--you would be imposing your morality.

Something is wrong because it is wrong, regardless of what people think. Differing views or a change in views do not make moral relativism true. No one can live consistently in the belief that morals are relative, no one. In any given circumstance you will behave as though morals are absolute, that what you believe to be right or wrong is the proper view of that circumstance, not anyone else's view who may happen to be involved.

Moral relativism would mean that we could not say a murderer was wrong for what he did but that what Hitler did to the Jews was okay and that we should leave the pedophile alone and let him do what he wants.

Well you seem to be able to overlook the myriad of examples where morality is indeed relative to the circumstances. Killing, polygamy, slavery.

If morality doesn't change then you are saying slavery is moral. Cause its moral in the bible. You are saying polygamy is moral. Cause its moral in the bible. So in the end you agree that rape isn't always wrong as it wasn't immoral to rape your slave.

 

[logical bob]

There are two separate questions getting confused in this thread: absolutism and realism.

Moral absolutism is the belief that what's wrong in one situation is wrong in all situations. Its opposite is relativism, in which morality depends on the circumstances.

Moral realism is the view that there are moral facts - that what's wrong is not wrong because we feel it is, or for societal reasons, but wrong independently of any human consideration. Moral antirealism is the view that our moral judgements reflect our emotions or represent instructions and can't really be judged true or false.

Some posters in this discussion seem to be assuming that absolutism and realism go hand in hand, but they don't have to. I'm inclined towards absolutism, at least in some questions (recognising that happyjoy has given some strong arguments against it). As I've said, I can't accept that killing children in cold blood could ever be acceptable. But I'm very much an antirealist.

If you're interested in moral philosophy, try the moral philosophy test I linked to a while back.

 

[jasoncran]

polygamy is only illegal in this country simply because of taxation issues. it's legal im most muslims countries. since your into gay rights, it wont be hard to accept the polygamist, as it as they say consenting adults.

I will need to see a source on the polygamy is illegal because of tax reasons. I contend that the Christian view of the morality of polygamy has changed.
it hasnt, if you read my expericiences in afhganistan post and wait for when i mention sayed anwar.that will answer to why we dont want that stuff.
Why is it hard for you to understand that whether something is right or wrong depends on the specific circumstances of what occurred.because you seem to confuse extremism in anything you think we and you disagree with. in war there are some grey areas, but those are simply because they are no, exact easy way to answer things, but even that doenst violate the absolute moralism.
if torture would bring a terrorist to talk, would it make it right if it saved your life happyjoy? we are weak and will often fail to hold the standard. that is what i am really saying here. do we allow people to speed through a stop light simply because every one does it? or whatever. i can find any reason to sin and if i want to do it i will.
if have lived this junk. i know the cost of moral relativism

Another way to think about it. Absolute morality is the same kind of thinking as zero tolerance in schools. No drugs or weapons period. All punishment for any infraction the same regardless or circumstance. Get caught with a baby aspirin.... Expelled. Or bring a water gun to school.... Expelled. God is smarter than to expect moral absolutism.

then what is command be ye holy for i am holy for?
why would the bible say god cant lie?

 

[happyjoy]

then what is command be ye holy for i am holy for?
why would the bible say god cant lie?

I don't know what that command is for. I need more context.

I don't say that God is a liar. I simply say that morality has changed over thousands of years.

 

[jasoncran]

the call not to sin! if you sin and dont repent, and have the lord to cover the sins with his blood and do no those good works then you arent a christian.

God doesnt lie
steal, cheat, kill as in murder and so on.

we are called to that, how by letting the lord in a savior and as such when the time comes to show forth fruit it is produced.

 

[happyjoy]

the call not to sin! if you sin and dont repent, and have the lord to cover the sins with his blood and do no those good works then you arent a christian.

God doesnt lie
steal, cheat, kill as in murder and so on.

we are called to that, how by letting the lord in a savior and as such when the time comes to show forth fruit it is produced.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Danus]

Is it complicated?
Wrong is unrighteous anger, envy, jealousy, miss placed sorrow or regret, greed,arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, pride,superiority, or ego.

Right is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

Wrong is guilt, or regret while right is peace love and serenity? That sounds like moral relativism to me.

I am not trying to make you upset, but if you can't see our morality has changed in the past 4000 years then it is because you are deluding yourself. There have been very major shifts in our morality in such areas as slavery, polygamy, woman's rights, how we conduct ourselves during war plus many more.

And who is "our" in your scenario? "Our Morality"??? you mean what society thinks is right and wrong? That could easily be Moral relativism. We see stupid examples of it all the time, but it's not what's actually right and wrong, it's just what people might think or feel.

For example; kill a pregnant woman and you will be charged with two murders, but it's OK if the woman chooses to abort the same baby at the same stage of life and the father of same said child HAS NO SAY; so you are absolutely right HJ; "Our morality" in some cases has certainly changed over the years, but often OUR Morality as a society has little to do with what God says is absolutely right and wrong. You will not find the morality of God changing like that nor will you find the teachings of Christianity changing like that, Only men who choose not to accept God will make their own rules for themselves.

So, you can talk about how we view slavery or woman's rights, or homosexuality all you want and you can be dead right to say that such matters are relative to a Godless society thinks, but you would be dead wrong to say that that's how God see it also.

Morality ....real right and wrong, does not come from what man thinks. It comes from God. God laid it out, God set the standard and God warns of the consequences, not in saying he's going to roast you over a fire for breaking his rules, but because you can't live a life worth anything otherwise.

It's like telling someone not to touch a boiling pot of water because they will get burned...absolutely true, but they do it anyway. If I gave you such a warning could you blame me for you getting burned? Not justly; yet society blames God all the time for their own ignorance then they make up their own rules. That's relative morality. That's what you described and are trying to say; "that's the truth" when in fact it's only the reality of what you see and feel of man. It's not the truth at all. Show me where God supports what you describe as an ever changing morality. You can't do it. I challenge you to show me.

 

[jasoncran]

the call not to sin! if you sin and dont repent, and have the lord to cover the sins with his blood and do no those good works then you arent a christian.

God doesnt lie
steal, cheat, kill as in murder and so on.

we are called to that, how by letting the lord in a savior and as such when the time comes to show forth fruit it is produced.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

we christian cant be relativists as the lord isnt a relavist, he is the standard of all that is right.

 

[happyjoy]

the call not to sin! if you sin and dont repent, and have the lord to cover the sins with his blood and do no those good works then you arent a christian.

God doesnt lie
steal, cheat, kill as in murder and so on.

we are called to that, how by letting the lord in a savior and as such when the time comes to show forth fruit it is produced.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

we christian cant be relativists as the lord isnt a relavist, he is the standard of all that is right.

Then what of slavery, polygamy, and rape? Those are viewed much differently in the bible. Should the way the bible portrays these things be the way we should view them? By that I mean should men be allowed to have multiple wives, and have slaves that they can have their way with?

 

[happyjoy]

Is it complicated?
Wrong is unrighteous anger, envy, jealousy, miss placed sorrow or regret, greed,arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, pride,superiority, or ego.

Right is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

Wrong is guilt, or regret while right is peace love and serenity? That sounds like moral relativism to me.

I am not trying to make you upset, but if you can't see our morality has changed in the past 4000 years then it is because you are deluding yourself. There have been very major shifts in our morality in such areas as slavery, polygamy, woman's rights, how we conduct ourselves during war plus many more.

And who is "our" in your scenario? "Our Morality"??? you mean what society thinks is right and wrong? That could easily be Moral relativism. We see stupid examples of it all the time, but it's not what's actually right and wrong, it's just what people might think or feel.

For example; kill a pregnant woman and you will be charged with two murders, but it's OK if the woman chooses to abort the same baby at the same stage of life and the father of same said child HAS NO SAY; so you are absolutely right HJ; "Our morality" in some cases has certainly changed over the years, but often OUR Morality as a society has little to do with what God says is absolutely right and wrong. You will not find the morality of God changing like that nor will you find the teachings of Christianity changing like that, Only men who choose not to accept God will make their own rules for themselves.

So, you can talk about how we view slavery or woman's rights, or homosexuality all you want and you can be dead right to say that such matters are relative to a Godless society thinks, but you would be dead wrong to say that that's how God see it also.

Morality ....real right and wrong, does not come from what man thinks. It comes from God. God laid it out, God set the standard and God warns of the consequences, not in saying he's going to roast you over a fire for breaking his rules, but because you can't live a life worth anything otherwise.

It's like telling someone not to touch a boiling pot of water because they will get burned...absolutely true, but they do it anyway. If I gave you such a warning could you blame me for you getting burned? Not justly; yet society blames God all the time for their own ignorance then they make up their own rules. That's relative morality. That's what you described and are trying to say; "that's the truth" when in fact it's only the reality of what you see and feel of man. It's not the truth at all. Show me where God supports what you describe as an ever changing morality. You can't do it. I challenge you to show me.

So God didn't outlaw polygamy, in fact God set out rules to make it better. God allowed slavery. God said that a way for a man to get a wife is to rape her, so he can own her. Is that the morality you want us to live by. Is that the eternal morality you say we lack?

 

[jasoncran]

actually he did in titus. let a bishop be of ONE WIFE. And when you look to the ot treatment of polygamy in documentation its never in a good light.

when i was in afhghanistan the muslims had many wives and each wife never lived in the same house. they were in seperate houses and they fought for the husband's love.

actually Jacob was decieved and married laban first then racheal. you are confused on this. god may allow us to sin, but he doesnt approve of it. such is the case with the polygamy.

free may comment on the other things.
as theology isnt my forte.

i used to steal and lie and commit minor thefts and such like and used situational ethics to reason it.
that is what you have switched your argument to.

 

[Danus]

I can't say that I could kill a child, but let's go back to your original question for just a bit.......

No, this is important. Since you say that there was a time when child killing was the right thing for the Israelites to do, is your inability to do it a moral weakness? If you'd been there in the days of Numbers would you have failed to carry out the command? Would you have sinned by your failure?

This is not about how you feel, or I feel about killing kids or rape. It's about Right and Wrong.

I say that killing captive children in cold blood is wrong. The source of your morality is a God who once sanctioned precisely such killing. Therefore you can't say that killing captive children is always wrong. If you maintain that today it would be wrong then you're a moral relativist.

If I where in the Israeli camp during the days of numbers and I was told by God to take vengeance on the Midianites I would have been involved in that battle in defense of God's people.

As for the kids; God did not say Kill the boys and non-virgin women, Moses did. Your mixing absolute right and wrong and God's morality with what people of the bible did, and saying it's God's morality. Where does that come from?

Your placing Moses and people of the bible on the same moral level with God??? Your missing it.

God is purely righteous. I follow God. Does that make me righteous? In your head, you are thinking that people (Man) can be righteous by their own efforts' especially those that follow God.....that's where you are making a critical mistake in understanding God, right and wrong, and the bible.

NONE of us our righteous by anything we do. The bible speaks of this from cover to cover. If you want to say that you would not kill a captive child of war like Moses did and that that makes you righteous, or more moral than God, or God's morality is relative, you are wrong in thinking that that is the message God has about his standards,,,,right and wrong.

So here is how I'm understanding your logical conclusion. If God is righteous, and people who are not righteous for the reasons God clearly points out in the bible, follow God and get their directions from God, and those same people do things that you feel is wrong and that ideally God would also say is wrong, then God must also be wrong, or he does not stick to his own standards of morality. That it? Therefor morality, or right and wrong is relative. Is that right? have I tapped into your logic....bob?

Again, you and I are not right to begin with. God has not told someone to do anything that would go against his own morality, the very moral standard of absolute right and wrong that says rape is absolutely wrong. You are trying to indicate or say that God's standards are like your ...relative and they are not and you have yet to prove otherwise. I'm still waiting for you to prove your question about God's morality or the teachings of Christianity being relative.