[_ Old Earth _] Is Space Expanding?

[Slevin]

They fail before your eyes, and you still hand wave???? You cannot support tham. And don't think that some clever professor, or scientist could either. No one can.

Fail? How have they failed? You haven't presented any evidence falsifying a same past. All you've done is create an idea that has no merit or evidence and then claim that by your very creation a same past is falsified.

A same past is supported, you just handwave the support and then claim there isn't any.

No proof exists in natural science for the sate of the future or far past, it is only assumed to be as the present. That is not science. You are wrong. Not the slightest speck of evidence exists for that.

No, you're wrong. It isn't assumed, it's observed.

 

[dad]

Fail? How have they failed? You haven't presented any evidence falsifying a same past. All you've done is create an idea that has no merit or evidence and then claim that by your very creation a same past is falsified.

Fail, yes, in every sense of the word. There is no same past or future. The bible was truly right all along. You have no proof of a same past, and you need it desperately for bringing naturalk only svcinece to the past, or future! As it is, science cannot leave the present, save by assumption. I kid you not!

No, you're wrong. It isn't assumed, it's observed.

ALL things observed have been since the flood, since the split, you are absolutely defeated, and wrong, and without a case. There is no science possible to support it, as you should know.

 

[Slevin]

fail, yes, in every sense of the word. There is no same past or future. The bible was truly right all along. You have no proof of a same past, and you need it desperately for bringing naturalk only svcinece to the past, or future! As it is, science cannot leave the present, save by assumption. I kid you not!

By all means, prove your own contentions. Since you seem so apt to criticize others for "not providing proof". If the bible was right, prove it.

ALL things observed have been since the flood, since the split, you are absolutely defeated, and wrong, and without a case. There is no science possible to support it, as you should know.

There is support, and all things observed have been observed billions of years ago too.

You can't even prove there was a flood, let alone a split. It is YOU who have no case.

 

[dad]

By all means, prove your own contentions. Since you seem so apt to criticize others for "not providing proof".

Science claims need to be supported with natural evidences, observations, etc. The claim is made, that the present is the key to the past, and future. Support that claim. You can't.
I have a spiritual claim, and spiritual support. There are natural claims, and spiritual claims. Each operates in a different realm. You seem to want the spiritual in the natural box. It doesn't work that way. I can back my bible claim up. You can't back your physical, natural science claims of the state of the future and fasr past up. Pitiful. The dishonesty is exposed here.

There is support, and all things observed have been observed billions of years ago too.

They were observed decades ago, weeks ago, and hundreds of years ago. Not billions of years ago, try to stick to truth, and reality! You ASSUME long ages are involved, because of the same past assumption. How long the light would take IF it were the same light, same universe, etc. Prove it. You can't it wasn't, it won't be. All you can deal in is the little temporary, natural only fishbowl of the present. Do not make claims that you can travel to the past and future! -To Infinity, and Beyond!

You can't even prove there was a flood, let alone a split. It is YOU who have no case.

The flood happened in the different past, that is why you missed it! [/img]

 

[Slevin]

Science claims need to be supported with natural evidences, observations, etc. The claim is made, that the present is the key to the past, and future. Support that claim. You can't.

I don't claim that the present is the key to the past, so I have no burden for that.

Science claims need to be supported with empirical evidence. Natural is a nonsense word.

I have a spiritual claim, and spiritual support. There are natural claims, and spiritual claims. Each operates in a different realm. You seem to want the spiritual in the natural box. It doesn't work that way. I can back my bible claim up. You can't back your physical, natural science claims of the state of the future and fasr past up. Pitiful. The dishonesty is exposed here.

You can't back your bible claim up, or people who believed the bible would believe you.

I never said to back your claim up in a "natural box". I said support your contentions, you don't. I have backed up my science claims, you just reject them and insert ridiculous events in the timeline.

They were observed decades ago, weeks ago, and hundreds of years ago. Not billions of years ago, try to stick to truth, and reality! You ASSUME long ages are involved, because of the same past assumption. How long the light would take IF it were the same light, same universe, etc. Prove it. You can't it wasn't, it won't be. All you can deal in is the little temporary, natural only fishbowl of the present. Do not make claims that you can travel to the past and future! -To Infinity, and Beyond!

It's not a same past assumption, it's a "we know these things are constant and they don't change, nor is there any reason to think an event has occured which would cause any type of change" contention.

Prove it was a different universe, different light. There's no reason to think it was a different universe or a different light, so what we observe is what we observe. I never made any claims I can travel to the past or the future, you're being ridiculous.

The flood happened in the different past, that is why you missed it!

That's such a mind-boggling twist of imagination and creative thinking. "I don't have to support what I say with any evidence because it was in the different past!"

What nonsense.

 

[dad]

I don't claim that the present is the key to the past, so I have no burden for that.

Science does. Unless you abandon science claims, you do!

"The well-known geologic maxim, "the present is the key to the past," has a complement: the present is the key to the future,.."
http://denali.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/lowman/lowman.html

You can't back your bible claim up, or people who believed the bible would believe you.

Oh, but I CAN back it up. Do you see anyone with a bible case here against it? If you do, it won't last long!

I never said to back your claim up in a "natural box". I said support your contentions, you don't. I have backed up my science claims, you just reject them and insert ridiculous events in the timeline.

My contentions are spiritual, and are supported as such. Your claims are physical and must be backed up as science!

Science claims need to be supported with empirical evidence. Natural is a nonsense word.

No, science only deals in the physical. They deal only in the natural world. By definition!
"Natural Science - the sciences involved in the study of the physical world and its phenomena
Natural History - the systematic account of natural phenomena .."
http://www.paleopubs.com/naturalSciences.htm

"Physics (from the Greek, φύσις (phúsis), "nature" and φυσικῆ (phusiké), "knowledge of nature") is the science concerned with the discovery and understanding of the fundamental laws which govern matter, energy, space, and time..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

-As they are in this physical universe only.

""knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."
http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scienc ... ition.html


"Science

The study of the material universe or physical reality in order to understand it."

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Science

It is not a matter of opinion.

It's not a same past assumption, it's a "we know these things are constant and they don't change, nor is there any reason to think an event has occured which would cause any type of change" contention.

Who said they do change? What changed was the former universe, not this one. So, the things you see far away are also changed!

Prove it was a different universe, different light. There's no reason to think it was a different universe or a different light, so what we observe is what we observe. I never made any claims I can travel to the past or the future, you're being ridiculous.

First, we need to see if any past or future state can be proved. Not with science it can't! So, you have none you can prove, so there is no giant to slay here. You only have an assumption! If you did have proof, why, you would have a case.
Those that know the bible realize there is other light than the light of the sun, and other states than the decaying, dying state we now see, etc. Thos that don't, are left with nothing, cause science can't help.

That's such a mind-boggling twist of imagination and creative thinking. "I don't have to support what I say with any evidence because it was in the different past!"

What nonsense.

The evidence for a spiritual also past is spiritual, and so, not something that is a natural, physical science claim. It is supported with other forms of evidence. You same past claim is a science claim, and must be supported. As it is, it is only assumed. Like the future, where they say the sun will burn out.
Utter nonsense.

 

[Slevin]

Science does. Unless you abandon science claims, you do!

"The well-known geologic maxim, "the present is the key to the past," has a complement: the present is the key to the future,.."
http://denali.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/lowman/lowman.html

It's a geological maxim, which has nothing to do with cosmology. In astronomy, we observe the past directly.

Oh, but I CAN back it up. Do you see anyone with a bible case here against it? If you do, it won't last long!

That doesn't matter, you have no case FOR it.

My contentions are spiritual, and are supported as such. Your claims are physical and must be backed up as science!

They aren't supported, and my claims are "real" and are backed up by "reality".

No, science only deals in the physical. They deal only in the natural world. By definition!
"Natural Science - the sciences involved in the study of the physical world and its phenomena
Natural History - the systematic account of natural phenomena .."
http://www.paleopubs.com/naturalSciences.htm

"Physics (from the Greek, φύσις (phúsis), "nature" and φυσικῆ (phusiké), "knowledge of nature") is the science concerned with the discovery and understanding of the fundamental laws which govern matter, energy, space, and time..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

-As they are in this physical universe only.

""knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."
http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scienc ... ition.html


"Science

The study of the material universe or physical reality in order to understand it."

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Science

It is not a matter of opinion.

It is a matter of opinion. Science studies the universe, and the claims therein. If a particular claim is not empirically verifiable, then it cannot be considered science. It has nothing to do with "supernatural" or "natural". It studies what occurs in the universe in an empirical way.

Who said they do change? What changed was the former universe, not this one. So, the things you see far away are also changed!

No they aren't.

First, we need to see if any past or future state can be proved. Not with science it can't! So, you have none you can prove, so there is no giant to slay here. You only have an assumption! If you did have proof, why, you would have a case.
Those that know the bible realize there is other light than the light of the sun, and other states than the decaying, dying state we now see, etc. Thos that don't, are left with nothing, cause science can't help.

1. No, we don't have to see if any past or future state can be proved. Science operates under inductive methodology. Repeated testing and experimentation only provide support for an idea. As such, repeated testing and experimentation show that what we observe is the past in regards to astronomy. So your ideas are irrelevant unless you can support them.

Those that know the bible can interpret it ten ways from sunday to "provide support" for their ideas...so what? That doesn't make it spiritual, supportable, and that doesn't mean that it's real.

The evidence for a spiritual also past is spiritual, and so, not something that is a natural, physical science claim. It is supported with other forms of evidence. You same past claim is a science claim, and must be supported. As it is, it is only assumed. Like the future, where they say the sun will burn out.
Utter nonsense.

No, it isn't. You have no spiritual support for your contentions. Millions of people believe that the world is spiritual and physical. I could confidently say that no one on any of the forums you visit believe a single word that you say regarding your "spiritual past merged with the physical". So you have no spiritual support.

The claims regarding the future of the universe are only hypotheses based on observations and physics. If something magical occurs to change it, then clearly those hypotheses are wrong.

In NO way are they claiming that those predictions about the future are 100% true. The only utter nonsense is your hypocrisy.

 

[dad]

No, it isn't. You have no spiritual support for your contentions.

Of course I do. The bible is a spiritual book. This is news????

Millions of people believe that the world is spiritual and physical. ...

There is a spiritual, and a physical, they are seperate. Angels no longer marry women, for example.

The claims regarding the future of the universe are only hypotheses based on observations and physics.

Funny they are presented as science.

If something magical occurs to change it, then clearly those hypotheses are wrong.

Clearly.

In NO way are they claiming that those predictions about the future are 100% true. The only utter nonsense is your hypocrisy.

"The Sun will last about 5 billion years as it is now,.."
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/ma ... .Ph.r.html

"For the next 5 billion years so, our Sun will keep on burning hydrogen,.."
http://www.abc.net.au/science/space/planets/sun.htm

"some 5 billion years from now, the sun will exhaust its fuel and begin a slow death..."
http://discover.com/issues/nov-03/features/Burnout

"Question: Will the sun ever burn out and if it will do you know
when it will?
Mike

Answer: Yup. About 5 billion years from now, according to our best
theories of the way stars get older"
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/a ... t99342.htm

Do you need 4,990,000 more sites???????? It is taught as fact.

It's a geological maxim, which has nothing to do with cosmology. In astronomy, we observe the past directly.

No you don't, as far as the far past goes! You assume that the past was the same, as I said.

That doesn't matter, you have no case FOR it.

It does matter, because yours is a claim of science! My spiritual claims have spiritual evidences.

They aren't supported, and my claims are "real" and are backed up by "reality".

False, the reality of the present cannot be shown to be the state of the universe in the past or future. Fact. The natural universe is real, but not all there is to reality. You ignore the spiritual.

It is a matter of opinion. Science studies the universe, and the claims therein. If a particular claim is not empirically verifiable, then it cannot be considered science. It has nothing to do with "supernatural" or "natural". It studies what occurs in the universe in an empirical way.

False. Look into it. Science does not deal in the supernatural. The universe we live in is physical, natural only.

No they aren't.

Prove it then.

1. No, we don't have to see if any past or future state can be proved. Science operates under inductive methodology. Repeated testing and experimentation only provide support for an idea. As such, repeated testing and experimentation show that what we observe is the past in regards to astronomy. So your ideas are irrelevant unless you can support them.

They can only test the present! They can only test the physical. They can only test the temporary universe we live in. The far away things you assume to be a concequence of this present state. You can not detect the past and future states. You can only assume. Be honest.

Like Buzz Lightyear you cannot go to infinity, and beyond! Science is limited by definition, to the physical only.


"Science is a method of explaining the natural world. It assumes that anything that can be observed or measured is amenable to scientific investigation. Science also assumes that the universe operates according to regularities that can be discovered and understood through scientific investigations."

Furthermore, because science is limited to explaining natural phenomena through the use of empirical evidence, it cannot provide religious or ultimate explanations.

http://www.nsta.org/159&psid=10

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

You can't back your bible claim up, or people who believed the bible would believe you.

Oh, but I CAN back it up. Do you see anyone with a bible case here against it?

I don't need your bible claim dad, you didn't get this from the Bible, anymore then you could back up your idea, whatever it is.

Different frequencies of light move at different speeds and possess different attributes. Techions move greater than the speed of light in the Quatum Universe. Black Holes are objects so dense that the rules of Physics are broken down. What have you got? Just speculation! Rules God set in place still exist! Nothing has changed! Your the figment of your minds imagination!

 

[Slevin]

I had to take a hiatus from this discussion because I couldn't stop laughing.
Dad, even if the bible is a spiritual book does not mean that you have support from this spiritual book to back up your contentions.

There is a spiritual, and a physical, they are seperate. Angels no longer marry women, for example.

Millions of people believe that they are not separate. Angels not marrying women doesn't mean that the world is separate.

Funny they are presented as science.

And guess what, hypotheses ARE a part of science! Wow!!

"The Sun will last about 5 billion years as it is now,.."
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/ma ... .Ph.r.html

"For the next 5 billion years so, our Sun will keep on burning hydrogen,.."
http://www.abc.net.au/science/space/planets/sun.htm

"some 5 billion years from now, the sun will exhaust its fuel and begin a slow death..."
http://discover.com/issues/nov-03/features/Burnout

"Question: Will the sun ever burn out and if it will do you know
when it will?
Mike

Answer: Yup. About 5 billion years from now, according to our best
theories of the way stars get older"
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/a ... t99342.htm

Do you need 4,990,000 more sites???????? It is taught as fact.

Hmmm, from those sites:

"We now believe..."
"The Sun will last about 5 billion years as it is now..."
"Yup. About 5 billions years from now, according to our best theories of the way stars get older"

Hmm...sounds more like hypotheses and theorizing, rather than FACT.

No you don't, as far as the far past goes! You assume that the past was the same, as I said.

Nope, it's pretty evident that the past was the same.

It does matter, because yours is a claim of science! My spiritual claims have spiritual evidences.

No, you don't have spiritual evidences.

False, the reality of the present cannot be shown to be the state of the universe in the past or future. Fact. The natural universe is real, but not all there is to reality. You ignore the spiritual.

False, I don't ignore the spiritual, you just assume I do. There is not different state of the universe in the past or the future or you'd be able to show evidence of it.

False. Look into it. Science does not deal in the supernatural. The universe we live in is physical, natural only.

False. Look into it. Science deals with anything empirical.

Prove it then.

I already have.

They can only test the present! They can only test the physical. They can only test the temporary universe we live in. The far away things you assume to be a concequence of this present state. You can not detect the past and future states. You can only assume. Be honest.

They are not observing the present when they look far away. No assumption, as it isn't evident there were any separate states.

 

[dad]

I don't need your bible claim dad, you didn't get this from the Bible, anymore then you could back up your idea, whatever it is.

Of course I can, here is a sample.
http://geocities.com/heddidit

Different frequencies of light move at different speeds and possess different attributes. Techions move greater than the speed of light in the Quatum Universe. Black Holes are objects so dense that the rules of Physics are broken down. What have you got? Just speculation! Rules God set in place still exist! Nothing has changed! Your the figment of your minds imagination!

The speed of light is like 2mph in the coming universe. Not even that imporatant with the new laws and light, and states. Quantum universe really doesn't seem an apropriate phrase. We have our universe, this natural universe, of which Einstein seems to have figured out a lot of the laws and rules. We have the spiritual universe, that is seperate at the moment as well. If we refer to our natural, physical only universe as 'the box', then quantum physics is like the edges of the box! The place that interacts with the real paast, and future, that are also spiritual.
Noting a slight difference from the box proper of the quantum edges mare part of the rules, true. As are the rules of the box. But they are temporary rules, and the bible says. There will be a whole new heavens, and these temporary ones will pass away forever.

 

[dad]

I had to take a hiatus from this discussion because I couldn't stop laughing.
Dad, even if the bible is a spiritual book does not mean that you have support from this spiritual book to back up your contentions.

Of course I do.
http://geocities.com/heddidit


They are not observing the present when they look far away. No assumption, as it isn't evident there were any separate states.[/quote]

Millions of people believe that they are not separate. Angels not marrying women doesn't mean that the world is separate.

The angels and spirits still can visit here, so that may be what you mean. Obviously, I do not expect to sell airline tickets to angels, or rebt them a suite. They are not of this world. Jesus went to heaven, which was not here. If it was not seperate, He would not need to go anywhere. Think about it.

And guess what, hypotheses ARE a part of science! Wow!!

Not ones that can't be tested, observed, or evidenced! Not observations of ghosts! Not how things work in the far future! There are real and present limits to science, this is simple fact.

Hmmm, from those sites:

"We now believe..."
"The Sun will last about 5 billion years as it is now..."
"Yup. About 5 billions years from now, according to our best theories of the way stars get older"

Hmm...sounds more like hypotheses and theorizing, rather than FACT.

They are claims. They are in schools, and documentaries, and millions of books, and sites. Almost always presented as statements of fact. That is the con.

Nope, it's pretty evident that the past was the same.

That is why this thread exists, for people like you to prove and evidence, and support their claims. Not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. Prove the past was the same state with science, or be exposed as having made a false claim. It is, literally, actually, and only, an assumption! Nothing more.

No, you don't have spiritual evidences.

The fact we know of a spiritual is spiritual evidence. Most men believe in some form of spiritual. It is a known factor. Well known. Then, in the sub set of bible believers, over the ages, we have our own proofs, miracles, and other reasons to know that the spiritual is real. Then, we have the Great Spirit, that wrote the biggest seller in history, the bible. A spiritual book, only understood by men with spiritual minds. And, I have a great bible case. For staryers it clearly states several times that this is a universe that will pass away. Temporary. It also tells of a different past, and future.

False, I don't ignore the spiritual, you just assume I do. There is not different state of the universe in the past or the future or you'd be able to show evidence of it.

In english, then, do you believe in a real spiritual world?? Like heaven?

False. Look into it. Science deals with anything empirical.

"A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. That is, empirical data is data that is produced by experiment or observation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

That rules out the spiritual.
"Fields of science are commonly classified along two major lines:

Natural sciences, which study natural phenomena, including biological life;
Social sciences, which study human behavior and societies
These fields are empirical sciences, which means the knowledge must be based on observable phenomena and capable of being tested for its validity by other researchers working under the same conditions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

"science cannot approach the supernatural; see scientific method...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural

They are not observing the present when they look far away. No assumption, as it isn't evident there were any separate states.

Not the present, but not the distant past. What is evident to the temporary state observer is only the present state! That is what he observes. The rest, about the deep past, or future is unknown, only assumed. We can see far away, but it is all in the present universe, we can't tell if there was or was not a universe state change. We can tell that the far light did originate at the source, and that it is obly so fast in this state, yes. But we only assume that it was always the same, and will be. Nothing at all more.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Were not Living in a Box, the Dead cant tell us nothing. I suppose were not even subatomic to you! If supernatural means more natural, God who created this world will return it to what it was, like he said. All the same rules, he created then apply now. The only power is the unknowable. But probably not much different, than any other law. Christ had to abide by both man's rules, physical laws of nature and spiritual ones, while he spent time on earth, no different. Satan has power of this kind too, can you measure it for us?

 

[dad]

Were not Living in a Box,

I used the term to refer to this present universe.

the Dead cant tell us nothing.

Of course they can, as God allows. Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses on a mountain one day.

I suppose were not even subatomic to you!

Say what?

If supernatural means more natural, God who created this world will return it to what it was, like he said. All the same rules, he created then apply now.

False, any more than all heaven's rules apply here!

The only power is the unknowable.

Millions of us know Him.

Christ had to abide by both man's rules, physical laws of nature and spiritual ones, while he spent time on earth, no different.

Not after He rose from the dead!

Satan has power of this kind too, can you measure it for us?

He is the flunky, and pipsqueak.

 

[Slevin]

Of course I do.
http://geocities.com/heddidit

So something you wrote is supportive of something you beleive?

The angels and spirits still can visit here, so that may be what you mean. Obviously, I do not expect to sell airline tickets to angels, or rebt them a suite. They are not of this world. Jesus went to heaven, which was not here. If it was not seperate, He would not need to go anywhere. Think about it.

Oh, it makes perfect nonsense! Except that millions of people believe that the spiritual is not separate from the physical.

Not ones that can't be tested, observed, or evidenced! Not observations of ghosts! Not how things work in the far future! There are real and present limits to science, this is simple fact.

You can observe ghosts, therefore the phenomenon people call ghosts can be studied by scientists! Wow!!!

They are claims. They are in schools, and documentaries, and millions of books, and sites. Almost always presented as statements of fact. That is the con.

No, they aren't. They are presented as scientific theories. All scientific claims are presented as theoretical discussion.

That is why this thread exists, for people like you to prove and evidence, and support their claims. Not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. Prove the past was the same state with science, or be exposed as having made a false claim. It is, literally, actually, and only, an assumption! Nothing more.

I already have.

The fact we know of a spiritual is spiritual evidence. Most men believe in some form of spiritual. It is a known factor. Well known. Then, in the sub set of bible believers, over the ages, we have our own proofs, miracles, and other reasons to know that the spiritual is real. Then, we have the Great Spirit, that wrote the biggest seller in history, the bible. A spiritual book, only understood by men with spiritual minds. And, I have a great bible case. For staryers it clearly states several times that this is a universe that will pass away. Temporary. It also tells of a different past, and future.

Except that the fact that spirituality exists doesn't mean you have spiritual support for your spiritual claims. Boo-ya, you're done.

In english, then, do you believe in a real spiritual world?? Like heaven?

I'm not discussing my own ideas of spirituality.

Even Jesus stated that the Kingdom of God is within us, so you're completely wrong.

"A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. That is, empirical data is data that is produced by experiment or observation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

That rules out the spiritual.
"Fields of science are commonly classified along two major lines:

Natural sciences, which study natural phenomena, including biological life;
Social sciences, which study human behavior and societies
These fields are empirical sciences, which means the knowledge must be based on observable phenomena and capable of being tested for its validity by other researchers working under the same conditions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

"science cannot approach the supernatural; see scientific method...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural

Sorry, but wikipedia is mistaken in this aspect. Any aspect of reality, any event that occurs and can be observed is an empirical event.

If we see ghosts, we can study the phenomenon.

What you think wikipedia is saying about the supernatural is that science doesn't approach the supernatural since it has no evidence for it. It really is just a bunch of bunk.

Not the present, but not the distant past. What is evident to the temporary state observer is only the present state! That is what he observes. The rest, about the deep past, or future is unknown, only assumed. We can see far away, but it is all in the present universe, we can't tell if there was or was not a universe state change. We can tell that the far light did originate at the source, and that it is obly so fast in this state, yes. But we only assume that it was always the same, and will be. Nothing at all more.

FaLsE. It is not an assumption, it is an evident assertion.

If the past were changed, or different, it would be evident. It's not, so it hasn't changed.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

That aint science! = No proof!
That aint the Bible! = No verses!
Just a new heaven, a new earth, a new age!

Gen 1:2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Then re-creation
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Except for the firmament or sea its the same, Christ is Alpha and Omega. The Lamb shall lay beside the Lion. How could it be anything but, what God intended to be in the 1st place !???!

If u call this evidence -> http://geocities.com/heddidit/, its shaky at best.
What no more proof!?! No Vulcan from the Space Academy telling us about Warp Drives and Transporter Technology?!? I claim the chubakka defense :

 

[blunthitta4life]

Crazy Christian fundamentalist.

So Dad what makes you credible? Is your view backed up by any leading theologians?

 

[dad]

So something you wrote is supportive of something you beleive?

You asked for biblical support. I gave it. Apparently you have nothing to say. No snese pretending you do!

Oh, it makes perfect nonsense! Except that millions of people believe that the spiritual is not separate from the physical.

I offer the bible take on things. That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit' Do you even believe in the spiritual here? Yes or no?

You can observe ghosts, therefore the phenomenon people call ghosts can be studied by scientists! Wow!!!

No you can't unless they want to be observed, therefore science is not involved in the spiritual at all. Pretty basic stuff there.

No, they aren't. They are presented as scientific theories. All scientific claims are presented as theoretical discussion.

Not really, it is presented as fact. As I said, most of the time. It is a claim. Tell the truth.

"The stars, the sun and the earth will die -- evaporating into radiation -- and there will be no light, only a vast soup of subatomic particles.


"The fate of the earth is still in some sense not certain," astrophysicist Greg Laughlin says. "It's not clear if it will be destroyed by the sun or whether it will escape being destroyed when the sun turns into a red giant."

I already have.

You haven't even addressed the issue. Why spam with weird false posts if you can't debate with facts??

Except that the fact that spirituality exists doesn't mean you have spiritual support for your spiritual claims. ...

How would you know? The bible tells us so. This is a temporary universe. You have no bible, or science to say otherwise. If you do, stop boo hooing, and make a case. You don't. As any lurker can see here.

I'm not discussing my own ideas of spirituality.

Do you believe in a real spiritual world, and angels, God, etc, or not? If you don't answer, we will know you do not!! I meet your type a lot. I can read you like a book. No you will not hide in this thread. If you do not really beleive in a spiritual, you are in no position ti comment intelligently on it!!! Fact.

Sorry, but wikipedia is mistaken in this aspect. Any aspect of reality, any event that occurs and can be observed is an empirical event.

No, it is not. You are. Do you have a problem with being wrong sometimes????

If we see ghosts, we can study the phenomenon.

What you think wikipedia is saying about the supernatural is that science doesn't approach the supernatural since it has no evidence for it. It really is just a bunch of bunk.

No, it is fact of human experience, known by most men on earth since time began. Science only deals in the natura,, the physical. You just seem to be trying to flog the lame claim that all spiritual is really just natural. Preposterous head lint.

FaLsE. It is not an assumption, it is an evident assertion.

If the past were changed, or different, it would be evident. It's not, so it hasn't changed.

The seperation of the spiritual is not evident to PO science, they can't even detect present spiritual things, let alone some things in the far past? Get a grip.
The change was not in the laws of physics, in case you want to try that tact, either. Our present state physical laws came to be as this temporary PO stste came to be.

 

[dad]

Crazy Christian fundamentalist.

So Dad what makes you credible? Is your view backed up by any leading theologians?

It is backed by the bible, will that do? It agrees with the evidence we do have as well. All that remains is for science to prove it's CLAIMS, that the present is the key to the past. If they can't, their assumption is another belief, of no special merit. Any local majority can choose their own beliefs, where science ends!

 

[Slevin]

...

Well, the fun is running out on this one, dad. Apparently you understand nothing of philosophy or science.