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Is The "he" of Daniel 9:27 Our Lord Jesus?
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adam332 said:
I disagree: it is very simple to find a missing week. You can start by finding FIVE mentions of the last half of that missing week. Once the week is found, then, one can find where it was misplaced FROM.
The week is easily found in Revelation. And one can easily trace the second half of the week straight back to Daniel 7 and 12. So it is not that difficult to find where the 70th week came FROM.
What I said was that the 7 years is the truth of scripture. That is not my opinion, it is fact. It is as simple as a typical math problem given in middle schools: If one half of a period of time is equal to 1260 days, then how long is the entire period of time? One can do the same math with 42 months or with 3 1/2 years. This is not opinion, it is scripture. And John did not originate it, Daniel did. But John confirmed it five times.
Dan 7
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Who shall be given into who's hands and for how long? Daniel mentions this same period of time again, so there is confirmation:
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
So Daniel has given us the same period of time, 3 1/2 years TWICE. Can we confirm it in the New Testament?
Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
So Daniels says, "they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
John writes: "it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" for "42 months." These are VERY equivilent sayings. The saints are given into the Beast's hand for 42 months.
When will this 42 months begin? If we read in Dan 12:1, he tells us:
Daniel 12
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:...
Compare that with this:
Matt 24
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Again two very equivilent verses. Matt. says "for then..." When is then? Jesus tells us: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet..."
Amazing how each book compliments each other: Jesus now is quoting from Daniel:
Dan 9
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
Again, to very equivilent phrases; there can be no doubt they are speaking of the same events.
In Rev, this abomination events takes place in chapter 11, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. So the 1260 days, or 42 months or the time, times and half of time start in chapter 11, and go to chapter 16, where the 7th vial reads, "it is done." Another text reads, "It is finished."
Now, if we BACK UP from the 7th trumpet, what do we find? Of course we find the FIRST 6 trumpets. They are in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week. ANY week of which we find 1260 days in the 2nd half, MUST have 1260 days in the first half.
Do you have a middle school student in your house? Are you smarter than a 5th grader? Give them this problem.
Coop
Sinthesis
Member
Since when? I've been on these sites long enough to know when this change occurred, it was only after I provided the fact about Cyrus' death in 529bc is when this theory came about. Another is that Ezra and Nehemiah are the ones that rebuilt the temple after Babylon's captivity. But they're all lies to hide the truth.[/quote:43y537gl]precepts said:
I had no idea you were so powerful. :eyebrow
Actually the temple was finished in 516BC, well before Ezra or Nehemiah showed up, thereby fulfilling the prophecy referred to in Dan 9:2.
Yes and No. The 70wks prophecy was given in 522BC, but Darius did not originally conquer Babylon so much as he had to reconquer it to put down a rebellion.precepts said:
Yes and No. Again, the temple was finished in 516BC; Darius' 6th year. However, Darius reconquered Babylon long after Cyrus' death.precepts said:
Not quite. Look up 'Gaumata'.precepts said:Another historical fact, Darius the Mede was crowned king of Pesia after the death of Cyrus' son, Artaxerxes.
precepts
Member
This is too personal and petty for my style, 516 bc is the 6th yr of Dariius.
Encyclopedia Sinthesis 2010 version
Keyword is 7wks until the commandment to go and rebuild the temple, 7yrs pre the commandment. Plus the temple wasn't rebuilt in 6yrs.
References please!
Same dog, new trick?
Not quite. Look up 'Gaumata'.[/quote:1eeuecn9] Yes sir!
adam332
Member
Coop, quite alot can be said about what you wrote. Here's something for you to chew on...
Dan. 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Do you know what happened in 538? The 10 European kingdoms signed a decree proclaiming Rome and the emperor of Rome pre-eminence. What does Rome do with that power? It attacks and overcomes 3 of the kingdoms who had given them trouble in the past, check Dan. 7. You do know Rome is the 4th kingdom portrayed in Dan and Rev right?
You may be asking where I'm going with this? Well ya' see coop, if your a fifth grader like me, you can add 1260 to 538 and come up with 1798.
So what's the big deal about 1798? It seems that Rome was invaded and the Pope was kidnapped, and dies in captivity six weeks later.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
The beast was wounded to death. But it healed? You do know that after Rome was invaded and the death of the Pope, it nearly destroyed the Papacy. Many doubted if it would ever recover at all. It took the last 2 centuries for them to regenerate, so to speak. But now the RCC are the wealthiest, most politically powerful religion on earth. The Pope even has a seat at the United Nations. I would say the wound has healed.
So since history and scripture show us exactly who the four kingdoms are, I will apply the numbers and times symbols according that principle. If you don't think that the Papacy is the beast of Rev. then we will probably never agree on how to apply times, numbers etc...
You keep calling it the missing week, it is not missing. They had a 490yr probation they failed, the word went to the Gentiles. Nice neat, no stuffing 2000yrs, into a 490yr probation period. If you find numbers to be repetitive well that's the Bible, it's very repetitive. Such as 70 x 7 the probation period is the same amount of times we are to forgive our brother.
You think He said it that way by accident. No, He was alluding to the 490yr probation. Wouldn't make much sense if He said; 7 x 352 times you should forgive your brother. 7x352 is the amount of years ago that the 490yr prophecy began.
Dan. 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Do you know what happened in 538? The 10 European kingdoms signed a decree proclaiming Rome and the emperor of Rome pre-eminence. What does Rome do with that power? It attacks and overcomes 3 of the kingdoms who had given them trouble in the past, check Dan. 7. You do know Rome is the 4th kingdom portrayed in Dan and Rev right?
You may be asking where I'm going with this? Well ya' see coop, if your a fifth grader like me, you can add 1260 to 538 and come up with 1798.
So what's the big deal about 1798? It seems that Rome was invaded and the Pope was kidnapped, and dies in captivity six weeks later.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
The beast was wounded to death. But it healed? You do know that after Rome was invaded and the death of the Pope, it nearly destroyed the Papacy. Many doubted if it would ever recover at all. It took the last 2 centuries for them to regenerate, so to speak. But now the RCC are the wealthiest, most politically powerful religion on earth. The Pope even has a seat at the United Nations. I would say the wound has healed.
So since history and scripture show us exactly who the four kingdoms are, I will apply the numbers and times symbols according that principle. If you don't think that the Papacy is the beast of Rev. then we will probably never agree on how to apply times, numbers etc...
You keep calling it the missing week, it is not missing. They had a 490yr probation they failed, the word went to the Gentiles. Nice neat, no stuffing 2000yrs, into a 490yr probation period. If you find numbers to be repetitive well that's the Bible, it's very repetitive. Such as 70 x 7 the probation period is the same amount of times we are to forgive our brother.
You think He said it that way by accident. No, He was alluding to the 490yr probation. Wouldn't make much sense if He said; 7 x 352 times you should forgive your brother. 7x352 is the amount of years ago that the 490yr prophecy began.
adam332 said:
I did not coin the "missing week." I just built on it. You are right, if you believe the Beast is the papacy, we will never agree. If you read in the epistles of John about the Antichrist, it is someone who denies the Father AND THE SON. There is a religion today, perhaps 2 billion strong, that this fits to a T; that is ISLAM. The do deny that Jesus was God and the Son of God. What religion surrounds Israel today? It is ISLAM.
Sorry, it is not the Papacy.
Coop
adam332
Member
I think history records that the majority of reformers felt the same way, about the Papacy. Hold on, I think they identified the antichrist as the Papacy. Antichrist/Beast, ummm... a little semantics but pretty much the majority of the early protestant scholars agree with me in principle.
I know that can't compare with such amazing modern theologians like Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. I'm just pointing out that the Wesley's, Luther's, Hus's, Calvin's, Waldo's, Wycliffe's and their peers were some pretty heavy thinkers, living in a time of prophecy unfolding.
Google; "Rome fourth beast" you will quickly see you are the minority among protestants who feel that way. Not that the majority is always right. It's just that the history and prophecy that has unfolded confirms it, in a hard to miss manner.
I know that can't compare with such amazing modern theologians like Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. I'm just pointing out that the Wesley's, Luther's, Hus's, Calvin's, Waldo's, Wycliffe's and their peers were some pretty heavy thinkers, living in a time of prophecy unfolding.
Google; "Rome fourth beast" you will quickly see you are the minority among protestants who feel that way. Not that the majority is always right. It's just that the history and prophecy that has unfolded confirms it, in a hard to miss manner.
adam332 said:
Since writing my book on Revelation - perhaps 8 years.
Where was Islam at the time of the Wesleys? And where was the Catholic church? That was not too far past the days of Martin Luthor and people being burned at the stake. One thing I can say - the Catholic church has NEVER denied that Jesus was the son of God.
I am convinced now, that Islam will be the religion of the beast.
Coop
adam332 said:
There's something unique about the beast prophecy in Daniel 2 & 7. The beast image Daniel was given to interpret has FIVE sections to it, the last one being of feet of part iron and part clay. I think a lot of folks only see four beast kingdoms, because Dan.7 mentions only four. The fourth kingdom in Dan.2 is also noted by most, and it's assumed the feet of part iron and part clay is part of the fourth kingdom.
Dan 2:32-35
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)
Those verses reveal the final beast kingdom on earth is to be made up of all those previous beast kingdoms that were before. It points to a final 5th beast kingdom represented by the feet of iron and clay. It's the final one, because it's the one manifested when Christ ("stone") comes to smite it upon its feet, and the whole statue image comes tumbling down.
Many Bible scholars agree the first beast kingdom was Babylon, then Medo-Persia, then Grecia, and then Roman. If all the areas those historical beasts covered is put together for a final one, a fifth one, how much of the earth are we talking about? This is another reason why the Revelation 13 beast cannot just apply to Rome or the papacy. Instead, it's pointing to coverage of the majority of the earth, if not all of it.
adam332
Member
veteran said:
Hey Vet,
sorry it's been awhile. I got busy elsewhere for a spell.
Interesting observation, it's literally been a few years since I really looked hard at that chapter...just been running on memory in this discussion for the most part. Now that I've looked at it again I think I see what your pointing at. Is this what your saying?
1st = head = gold = Babylon
2nd = breast/arms = silver = Medo/Persia
3rd = belly/thighs = brass = Greece
4th = legs = iron = Rome
5th = feet = iron/clay = ?
I can understand when you read v.32-35 it does appear to be 5 parts of the statue and therefore implies a fifth kingdom. I think I've heard that some think this last kingdom refers to Christ's eternal kingdom. especially in light of the fact that most scholars conclude that Christ is the stone that brings all the pieces down into "ONE" pile.
veteran said:
I would say that is a theory of what those verses mean, but I don't think they "reveal" that.
veteran said:
Yes... at first appearance it does, but that is only because one has to read the rest of the chapter to realize that there are only four actual kingdoms recorded by Daniel. That theory stands solid until one reads Daniels own interpretation of the "four" kingdoms, v.38-43. The legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay appear to be one kingdom according to the rest of the chapter
It was his visions while influenced by God which showed him how many kingdoms there are represented by that statue. Daniel says there are only four kingdoms v. 40 confirms that. He makes no mention in his interpretation of the vision including a 5th kingdom.
It's the final one, because it's the one manifested when Christ ("stone") comes to smite it upon its feet, and the whole statue image comes tumbling down.[/quote]
The rest of your post really has no point since we see that the scripture shows the statues feet to be the ten empires of Rome and not the empire of Christ.
adam332 said:
Nevertheless, a 5th beast kingdom is... present in the Dan.2:35 verse, because the "clay" is shown separate from the other four materials. And it makes sense for our times, because the fourth beast, the Roman empire, already had its hey day in history.
Nor do I see any way that one of "clay" could ever represent Christ's Kingdom to come. All five, the gold, the brass, the silver, and the iron represent beast kingdoms, kingdoms of this world that are anti-Christ, anti-God.
adam332
Member
veteran said:
No brother "a 5th beast kingdom" is not present. A fifth material is, but not a kingdom. The clay was mixed with the iron.
Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Daniel is the one who was given the meaning of the vision, do you agree? Do you also agree that when God gave Daniel this vision, that it would be more accurate than our interpretation?
So, if God himself used Daniel to interpret that this statue which was made up of five materials, yet only represented four kingdoms...what authority do either of us have to claim that the statue actually represents five kingdoms?
veteran said:
Really? The RCC is the wealthiest and most politically powerful religion on earth. The Pope even has a seat at the United Nations. If I remember my numbers correctly I believe there are more Catholics, than every denomination of protestants combined.
If your looking for a false Christ to arise during endtimes, one that could possibly deceive the very elect of believers.....well I don't think that's gonna be a Muslim.
2Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This is gonna' be a deception within the Christian ranks. And since Christ is the stone that destroys the last kingdom of Rome....well there ya' go. Does not the Pope sit in the temple of God, does he not forgive sins and receive worship acting as God?
Rome's "hey day" is just getting started, there are more Catholics than any point in history and their still growing.
veteran said:
Sorry that was my bad, when you mentioned five kingdoms I thought you may have a belief that I had heard elsewhere. I see now that your belief about a fifth kingdom is different.
You're missing an important pointer Adam, the kingdom of iron is mentioned separately from the iron/clay in the Dan.2:33 verse.
Dan 2:32-33
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
(KJV)
1. Head - gold (Babylon empire)
2. Breast and arms of silver (Media-Persia empire)
3. Belly and thighs of brass (Greek empire)
4. Legs of iron (Roman empire)
5. Feet of iron and clay (???)
That body division of the image reveals the Dan.2:35 mention of those five materials separately is distinct, and not a translation error.
This is why quite a few Bible scholars believe the old Roman empire is going to be revived again in the last days prior to Christ's return, because of that iron/clay mixture with the feet. Does the Scripture in Daniel and Revelation point to that? Yes, with the ten toes representing those ten kings of the final beast kingdom that is to manifest on earth just prior to Christ's return.
Are there signs in today's world of a final beast kingdom forming up? You bet there is, for the show puppets that we are allowed to publically see have declared it out of their own mouths, "New World Order", "one world government", etc., which are their own words. The 1970's Tri-lateral Commission think-tank was started especially with that one world government idea in mind. And before that, think-tanks like the Council On Foreign Relations in the U.S., an offshoot of the British Rhodes think-tank formed by students of the socialist Cecil B. Rhodes, were formed for that purpose. Many of the doctrines of Preterist and Historicist theology is designed to deny that another beast kingdom like those previous four in Daniel is forming up again today.
And what's unique about that Daniel 2:35 prophecy, is that 5th beast kingdom is to include ALL the previous beast kingdoms within it, together existing at the same time (all of them revived), when Christ returns to strike it all down. This is part of God's prophecy where He said He's going to gather all nations to battle on the last day, in order to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (Zeph.3; Zech.14:2; Joel 3; Ezek.38 & 39; Luke 21:20-22; Rev.16:14-16).
Dan 2:32-33
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
(KJV)
1. Head - gold (Babylon empire)
2. Breast and arms of silver (Media-Persia empire)
3. Belly and thighs of brass (Greek empire)
4. Legs of iron (Roman empire)
5. Feet of iron and clay (???)
That body division of the image reveals the Dan.2:35 mention of those five materials separately is distinct, and not a translation error.
This is why quite a few Bible scholars believe the old Roman empire is going to be revived again in the last days prior to Christ's return, because of that iron/clay mixture with the feet. Does the Scripture in Daniel and Revelation point to that? Yes, with the ten toes representing those ten kings of the final beast kingdom that is to manifest on earth just prior to Christ's return.
Are there signs in today's world of a final beast kingdom forming up? You bet there is, for the show puppets that we are allowed to publically see have declared it out of their own mouths, "New World Order", "one world government", etc., which are their own words. The 1970's Tri-lateral Commission think-tank was started especially with that one world government idea in mind. And before that, think-tanks like the Council On Foreign Relations in the U.S., an offshoot of the British Rhodes think-tank formed by students of the socialist Cecil B. Rhodes, were formed for that purpose. Many of the doctrines of Preterist and Historicist theology is designed to deny that another beast kingdom like those previous four in Daniel is forming up again today.
And what's unique about that Daniel 2:35 prophecy, is that 5th beast kingdom is to include ALL the previous beast kingdoms within it, together existing at the same time (all of them revived), when Christ returns to strike it all down. This is part of God's prophecy where He said He's going to gather all nations to battle on the last day, in order to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (Zeph.3; Zech.14:2; Joel 3; Ezek.38 & 39; Luke 21:20-22; Rev.16:14-16).
veteran said:
Veteran, your last paragraph is very good, and right on. It seems many just overlook the fact that all the former kingdoms exist at the same time, at the end.
It is my personal belief that the IRON is to represent the children of the ancient kingdoms, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, while the clay is to represent Islam and Muslims that have infiltrated all these old kingdoms. They will not mix, and will not be satisfied until Shariah law is the SUPREME law of these lands. And, for 42 months, it WILL. Most of Europe is in TROUBLE today, for having allowed the free entrance of Islam. We are too, but so far, few seem to know.
Coop
adam332
Member
veteran said:
I am not missing anything. You keep saying "kingdom", that is not what it says that is your own personal interpretation. It list 5 materials, not kingdoms. You can't cram the word kingdom in where Daniel never wrote it.
Please answer the very relevant and very simple questions in my last post. You completely avoided them.
That interpretation of the 5 beast kingsoms is not my 'opinion'. It's an idea clearly shown once one realizes our Lord's prophecy for the end did not stop with the Roman empire, the fourth beast of iron.
What defies common sense, is how many today close their eyes to the signs in today's world of yet another beast kingdom in the making, this time to cover the whole earth. But I suppose our Lord has blinded those, as written.
What defies common sense, is how many today close their eyes to the signs in today's world of yet another beast kingdom in the making, this time to cover the whole earth. But I suppose our Lord has blinded those, as written.
jasoncran said:
It could be counted as part of it, just one of many tools being used to bring all nations under a one world government. All true believers on Christ Jesus should be seeing those signs in the world today. Those signs have been present long enough now that we shouldn't be wondering whether or not one world government is coming, but what kind of political machine it will be, and who the main ones behind it are in this world.