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Is the Pope your Father?

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Re: The Church of Scripture

parousia70 said:
The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

Protestantism, in contrast, is literally thousands of separatist ecclesial governments that do not share one ecclesial body, that have endless schismatic divisions, that share no united teaching for all churches, that contain no authorized bishopric dating to the apostles, that do not share ministers between all churches, that do not receieve all members both in fellowship and greeting, and which have no effective excommunication.


Wow... lots of objections to my above post but not a single one of them took ANY of the scriptures I cited and used them to show why, in their view, they do not mean what I contend they mean.

One objector claimed that "950 out of 1000 denominations stick to the truth", yet could not demonstrate how a single one of them meet the criteria of "the church of scripture" that I cited above.

Only one church today fits the scriptural criteria I cited. Only one.
 
Re: The Church of Scripture

.

parousia70 said:
Only one church today fits the scriptural criteria I cited. Only one.

And it's definitely not the RCC ...


:naughty :naughty :naughty
 
TheCatholic said:
That means only 20% percent of Christians do NOT call their pastor "father".

Has anybody noticed that its not about being the most and that its actually the FEW that inherits eternal life `/


For many are called, but few chosen.
 
Tina said:
.
Actually I have no problem with the pope, or with calling him father.

But the intention of this thread is, I believe, to question the "Father" that we call our God, and then call other men "father" as well ...... The OP is probably insinuating that we "pray" to the "Father" as well as other "fathers"..


:naughty

Okay. I understand. Fair enough
 
Cornelius said:
TheCatholic said:
That means only 20% percent of Christians do NOT call their pastor "father".

Has anybody noticed that its not about being the most and that its actually the FEW that inherits eternal life..........

I was not talking about that. I am quite sure that there will be people from all races and creeds in both heaven and hell. My point was: Don't say that "Christians" don't call their pastors "father", because most of them do. So don't make my statement into more than it was
 
TheCatholic said:
Cornelius said:
TheCatholic said:
That means only 20% percent of Christians do NOT call their pastor "father".

Has anybody noticed that its not about being the most and that its actually the FEW that inherits eternal life..........

I was not talking about that. I am quite sure that there will be people from all races and creeds in both heaven and hell. My point was: Don't say that "Christians" don't call their pastors "father", because most of them do. So don't make my statement into more than it was

Our spiritual "fathers" are those in who's footsteps we walk. When I walk in the footsteps of Abraham, he is my father. When I walk in the footsteps of Paul, he is my father. Paul says " I begat you through the gospel" Paul has many "children". But we do not call them father, its meant in a spiritual way.

We ultimately must only walk in the footsteps of Jesus (the Word of God) so the God can be the only Father in Who's footsteps we walk. He is the only One we must call Father.

Jer 3:19....... Ye shall call me My Father, and shall not turn away from following me.
 
Cornelius said:
TheCatholic said:
Cornelius said:
Has anybody noticed that its not about being the most and that its actually the FEW that inherits eternal life..........

I was not talking about that. I am quite sure that there will be people from all races and creeds in both heaven and hell. My point was: Don't say that "Christians" don't call their pastors "father", because most of them do. So don't make my statement into more than it was

Our spiritual "fathers" are those in who's footsteps we walk. When I walk in the footsteps of Abraham, he is my father. When I walk in the footsteps of Paul, he is my father. Paul says " I begat you through the gospel" Paul has many "children". But we do not call them father......

And as I said, your "we" only counts for 20% of all Christians. The other 80% do call them father.

But lets not belabor the point, shall we? If you would like to debate it, I will gladly debate you in the debate section
 
Its hardly worth a debate don't you think?

I just find it interesting that you think that if 80% are doing it, that it is the right thing to do! If we followed that logic, we must then admit its wrong to be a Christian, because on this planet, the unbelievers are more than the believers, therefor they are right. Do you see that we cannot use that as a measure of being right ?
 
TheCatholic said:
Cornelius said:
Its hardly worth a debate don't you think?........

Any time someone puts out false information and tries to pass it off as truth, its always worth the debate for me.

I would be interested in how you explain this scripture in your own words. Can you explain to me what it is saying to us? What is the message that God gives us through this verse ? Why did God write this to us ?


8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

—Matthew 23

Thanks
C
 
Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

spiritually speaking of course.
 
Cornelius said:
TheCatholic said:
Cornelius said:
Its hardly worth a debate don't you think?........

Any time someone puts out false information and tries to pass it off as truth, its always worth the debate for me.

I would be interested in how you explain this scripture in your own words. Can you explain to me what it is saying to us? What is the message that God gives us through this verse ? Why did God write this to us ?


8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

—Matthew 23

Thanks
C

In Matthew 23:9, Christ is actually warning against looking to any man as a Father in the way God alone is our Father. Jesus was living in a time when religious leaders and even political leaders demanded divine worship (like the Caesars), and so our Lord was saying to His people: You don't do the same thing. Do not give to man that which is due to God alone.


As we see in the scriptures listed below, Christ did not literally mean that we cannot address others as "father", even in a religious context. Many who object to the Catholic custom of calling priests "father" forget that in Matthew 23 Jesus also says to call no man teacher, but they have no problem calling people teacher or doctor (which is the Latin word for 'teacher'). So the anti-Catholic is not consistent in his literalistic approach to Scripture.


Here are some scriptures showing that Matthew 23:9 was not meant to be taken literalistically:


1 Cor 4: 15 - "For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers : For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have become your father". This statement by St. Paul would contradict Christ if Christ had meant what He said in Matt 23:9 literally.


John 2:13 - "I write unto you; fathers, because you have known him (Jesus) who is from the beginning." John’s letter was addressed to churches in Asia Minor, and he seems to have no problem calling men in that church "father".


Acts 7:2 - "Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear." Here, St. Stephen calls the Pharisees and council "fathers". Was he disobeying Christ?


Acts 7:38-39 - In these passages, as in many others in Acts, St. Stephen refers to the children of Israel who came before as "our fathers". (read all of Acts 7.)


Romans 4:1-16 - St. Paul refers to Abraham as "father" five (5) times.


Mark 11: 10 - "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." Here, the crowds outside Jerusalem call David "father" as Jesus approaches.


Titus 1:4 - St. Paul does not refer directly to himself as "father" here, but he does make that connection by reminding Christians of his spiritual fatherhood that comes from God. He makes the same point in Philemon, where here identifies the Christian slave Onesimus, as being his son in the faith and he, Paul, as having become his father.



These are the writings and/or teachings of Saints Paul, Stephen, John and Mark. But what of the words of Christ?


Luke 16:24 - In Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus Himself uses the phrase "Father Abraham".


Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6 - Jesus repeatedly refers to earthly men as "father" or "fathers".



If Jesus was being literal when He said "call none your father upon earth", then this would be a direct contradiction.


As Christians, we are spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ. And, just as St. Paul became the spiritual father of those early Christians in Corinth by preaching the Gospel to them (1 Cor 4:14-15) so our pastors, preaching the Gospel to us today and giving us new birth in Baptism are our spiritual fathers. We use the ward "father" as a sign of affection because St. Paul says, "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labor in the word and doctrine" (1 Tim 5:17).
 
In the above spin doctoring...why not translate 1 Tim. 5:17 as let the imams who rule well, or let the gurus who rule well...

If one is going to hoodwink people that is. The days of duping people due to a lack of education are over. It is "let the elders (presbuteros) who rule well...Respected elders were (and still are) those with exemplary families; the elders being respected house leaders.

All true Christians are priests. Or else those who look to priests are as yet unconverted.
 
Adullam said:
In the above spin doctoring...why not translate 1 Tim. 5:17 as let the imams who rule well, or let the gurus who rule well........

Because thats not what the Bible, says, thats why

BTW: I quoted straight scripture. You did not.
 
TheCatholic said:
In Matthew 23:9, Christ is actually warning against looking to any man as a Father in the way God alone is our Father. Jesus was living in a time when religious leaders and even political leaders demanded divine worship (like the Caesars), and so our Lord was saying to His people: You don't do the same thing. Do not give to man that which is due to God alone.


As we see in the scriptures listed below, Christ did not literally mean that we cannot address others as "father", even in a religious context. Many who object to the Catholic custom of calling priests "father" forget that in Matthew 23 Jesus also says to call no man teacher, but they have no problem calling people teacher or doctor (which is the Latin word for 'teacher'). So the anti-Catholic is not consistent in his literalistic approach to Scripture.


Here are some scriptures showing that Matthew 23:9 was not meant to be taken literalistically:


1 Cor 4: 15 - "For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers : For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have become your father". This statement by St. Paul would contradict Christ if Christ had meant what He said in Matt 23:9 literally.


John 2:13 - "I write unto you; fathers, because you have known him (Jesus) who is from the beginning." John’s letter was addressed to churches in Asia Minor, and he seems to have no problem calling men in that church "father".


Acts 7:2 - "Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear." Here, St. Stephen calls the Pharisees and council "fathers". Was he disobeying Christ?


Acts 7:38-39 - In these passages, as in many others in Acts, St. Stephen refers to the children of Israel who came before as "our fathers". (read all of Acts 7.)


Romans 4:1-16 - St. Paul refers to Abraham as "father" five (5) times.


Mark 11: 10 - "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David that cometh: Hosanna in the highest." Here, the crowds outside Jerusalem call David "father" as Jesus approaches.


Titus 1:4 - St. Paul does not refer directly to himself as "father" here, but he does make that connection by reminding Christians of his spiritual fatherhood that comes from God. He makes the same point in Philemon, where here identifies the Christian slave Onesimus, as being his son in the faith and he, Paul, as having become his father.



These are the writings and/or teachings of Saints Paul, Stephen, John and Mark. But what of the words of Christ?


Luke 16:24 - In Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus Himself uses the phrase "Father Abraham".


Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6 - Jesus repeatedly refers to earthly men as "father" or "fathers".



If Jesus was being literal when He said "call none your father upon earth", then this would be a direct contradiction.


As Christians, we are spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ. And, just as St. Paul became the spiritual father of those early Christians in Corinth by preaching the Gospel to them (1 Cor 4:14-15) so our pastors, preaching the Gospel to us today and giving us new birth in Baptism are our spiritual fathers. We use the ward "father" as a sign of affection because St. Paul says, "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labor in the word and doctrine" (1 Tim 5:17).


No, you are adding to the Word. Jesus did not say it like that at all, He simply said the following Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven

Yes, yes I know, you HAVE to get around that scripture verse, so you will try and try until you can. But in the end it still says: Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven and it will always say that.
 
Where does it talk about the pope in the Bible?
I don't know much about Catholocism, but I do know that the Bible says in Exodus 3-4
"You must not have any other god but me
You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea"
Is the pope not a false idol?
Why is he of more importance than any of us?
 
KatieM80 said:
Where does it talk about the pope in the Bible?
I don't know much about Catholocism, but I do know that the Bible says in Exodus 3-4
"You must not have any other god but me
You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea"
Is the pope not a false idol?
Why is he of more importance than any of us?
The pope is the successor of Saint Peter. All the special authorities that Christ gave to Peter are carried on by the pope.

Is Peter a false god? No, and neither is the pope. Give us a little credit for some intelligence, will you? I would have to be a moron to look at the pope as if he is a god.

Try reading a few of these:
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
 
Ed the Ned said:
These are the rules for Catholic discussion:

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

So bodhitharta you are quite correct in posting this post here, the problem is can you explain what it has to do with end time prophecy. I am sure the reason the rule is in place is that The papacy and the catholic church are intertwined in end time prophecies.

Again I agree with you if you suggest that the pope is not the Father, what I don't agree with is why the subject is being raised in this forum. It the moderators wish that we do not discuss certain issues of the Roman Catholic church then I think there is a reason for that.

Please indicate what this has to do with end time prophecy?
Well, I've neglected to do anything about this thread in the hopes that it would eventually turn in the direction of End Times-related posts, but it didn't.

So I'm locking it (temporarily) while I clean it out a bit.
 
Done.

Some of you should be ashamed and disgraced in front of our Lord for the way you posted here and for things said. You should know who you are if you haven't already been blinded by your pride. If you don't know, I will point you out, if needed. :grumpy
 
TheCatholic said:
Adullam said:
In the above spin doctoring...why not translate 1 Tim. 5:17 as let the imams who rule well, or let the gurus who rule well........

Because thats not what the Bible, says, thats why

BTW: I quoted straight scripture. You did not.


The NT has no priestly class unless it is the priesthood of all believers. You are simply spin-doctoring biblical phrases using the modern error as the basis for your understanding. What is the Greek word for priest...do you know? What is the Greek word for an older person? The purpose of the bible is to get at the truth, not to distort it.
 
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