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Is the soul immortal?

Is the soul immortal?

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Drew said:
I do not believe that we will enter heaven in these physical bodies, but 1 Cor 15 shows that we will indeed have bodies in heaven - we will not be disembodied "spirits" or "souls". Heaven will be a distinctly physical place.

Drew
Lets take a little bit of a closer look at the scriptures...Pay attention to what Paul is saying here....

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?†36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grainâ€â€perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.†The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.


One area of unbelief is how in the world are bodies that are 2000, 5000 year old corpses along with some that have been burned and destroyed or have turned back to dust be resurrected...., Paul did not consider these sorts of questions a wise person would ask, as is obvious from his response, How foolish!...He was straight calling some folks fools....

He then goes on to use Nature as his illustration..and in particular seed time and harvest...something they were all familiar with but they could not be completely understood...Yet both were very real. As a plant which sprouted from a seed was directly linked to it but remarkably different from it, so too was the relationship of a natural and a resurrected body.

Paul gooes on to show the differences in fleshly vessels...This is important..
It shows the creativity of Jesus...

The differences in splendor between the earthly bodies and the heavenly bodies suggested to Paul the differences between a natural and a spiritual body ....An earthly natural body is fallen and so is temporal, imperfect, and weak. A heavenly spiritual body will be eternal, perfect, and powerful see 2 Cor. 5:1-4.

Discussion of the contrast between Adam and Jesus is resumed here. Adam exemplified the earthly natural body....Jesus, exemplifies the heavenly spiritual body which those who belong to Him will likewise recieve when he/she gets to heaven....The full harvest will be like the first fruits
First the seed must die; then the spiritual body will emerge.

Now I think it worth taking a look at another scripture....
Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Christ will transform ''our'' bodies that are prone to disease, sin, are corrupted to a body like ''His glorious body''. Then every child of God will be made like the Son of God (see 1 John 3:2), that is, all Christians will receive glorified bodies like His. Their resurrected bodies will be like Christ’s, and their sanctification will be completed.....

These scriptures completely blow away your and Guibox's monostic positions....

Read these scriptures a few times and Pray and ask the HS to help u understand them....

So for now I will go catch a movie and have some... :popcorn:
 
guibox said:
Solo, I will break my vow seeing as you are misconstruing the facts (and BTW, you'll notice that I didn't address you specifically in my response).

I have shown, from the sources own words Solo, that 'soul sleep' is not a 'JW or SDA heresy' it was believed by the Reformers.

If you can't accept that but choose to continue to spread untruths when the truth is right there in black and white, I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously.

Okay. No more. I feel like Michael Corleone in Godfather III "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"
33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 "But let your statement be, `Yes, yes' or `No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. Matthew 5:33-37 NASB
 
An excerpt from the article "Dr. Jacob Prasch's Soul Sleep Heresy Exposed!" by Dr. Robert Morey.

..........................................................................Part I
.......................................................................Definition

Our first task is to define the doctrine of “soul sleep.†To do this we consulted the standard reference works that define the doctrine, reading both those who believe in it and those who don’t.
  1. The Seventh Day Adventists are the chief exponents of this doctrine today. Here is how they define it:
    [list:5b227]
    “We, as Adventists, have reached the definite conclusion that man rests in the tomb until the resurrection morning. Then, at the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4, 5), the resurrection of the just (Acts 24:15), the righteous come forth immortalized, at the call of Christ the Life-giver. And they then enter into life everlasting, in their eternal home in the kingdom of glory. Such is our understanding. Another important factor is that, at death, the saints go to the grave. They will live again, but they come to life and live with Jesus after they are raised from the dead. While asleep in the tomb the child of God knows nothing. Time matters not to him. If he should be there a thousand years, the time would be to him as but a moment. One who serves God closes his eyes in death, and whether one day or two thousand years elapse, the next instant in his consciousness will be when he opens his eyes and beholds his blessed Lord. To him it is deathâ€â€then sudden glory.†http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q41.htm

    “State of the Dead. Seventh-day Adventists believe that death is a sleep during which the "dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). This view maintains that the person has no form of existence until the resurrection, either at the second coming of Jesus (in the case of the righteous) or after the millennium of Revelation 20 (in the case of the wicked).†http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... ist-Church

    “The soul sleep theory states that the soul goes to "sleep" at the time of death, and stays in this quiescent state until the last judgment. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... ist-Church
[/*:m:5b227]
[*]The fact that Evangelical theologians reject the doctrine of soul sleep can be documented beyond all doubt. The following is just a sample of the standard rejection of the doctrine of soul sleep.[/*:m:5b227][/list:o:5b227]
    • Evans, W., & Coder, S. M. 1998, c1974. The Great Doctrines of the Bible: John 11:11â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Our friend Lazarus sleepeth.†We have no ground in these words for the modern doctrine of soul-sleeping. Christ did not mean to say that the soul is unconscious between the time of death and the resurrection. For, when the disciples did not understand His figurative language, He told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead†(11:11–15). The experience (death-sleep) through which the believer passes ushers him at once into the presence of Christ. It takes him instantly to be “at home†with the Lord. Surely there can be no hint of unconsciousness or the sleeping of the soul in these words.
    • Commentary of Charles Hodge on the Westminster Confession of Faith:[list:5b227]
      “The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.†Westminster Confession of Faith

      As to the condition and location of the souls of men during the interval which elapses between the death of each individual and the general and simultaneous resurrection of the bodies of all, what the Scriptures teach us may be summed up under the following heads:
      [list:5b227]
      (1) The souls of both believers and the reprobate continue after death conscious and active, although they remain until the resurrection separate from their bodies.

      (2) The souls of believers are at their death made perfect in holiness.

      (3) The souls of believers, thus perfected, are immediately introduced into the presence of Christ, and continue to enjoy bright revelations of God and the society of the holy angels.

      (4) The souls of the reprobate are at once introduced into the place provided for the devil and his angels, and continue in unending misery.

      (5) This state of both classes admits no exchange or transfer, but their present condition is the commencement of an inevitable progression in opposite directions. Nevertheless, it is intermediate in the sense that:
      [list:5b227]
      (a) The persons of men continue incomplete while their souls and bodies are separate.

      (b) Neither the redemption of the saved nor the perdition of the lost has yet reached its final stage.

      (c) Possibly in the case of the latter, and very probably in the case of the redeemed, the localities in which they are at present are not the same as those in which they are to dwell permanently after the final award.
    (6) As to the location of the place in which the souls of the reprobate suffer, the Scriptures give us no clue. In Jude verse 6 it says, “The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.†In Matt. 25:41, the Judge at the last day says to those on the left hand, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.†The rich man “lifted up his eyes in hell, being in torments,†while his brethren were still alive on earth. (Luke 16:23.) But where these places are situated, and whether the locality of torment now is identical to the locality of torment after the judgment, no man can tell, because God has not revealed it. Of course, the terms “up†or “down,†“under†or “above,†applied to such a subject, must be simply metaphorical and cannot indicate absolute direction when addressed promiscuously to the inhabitants of a revolving and rotating sphere.

    (7) As to the location of the place where the redeemed are now gathered, absolutely nothing is revealed, except that it is wherever the glorified humanity of Christ is. They are with him, and behold his glory. (2 Cor. 5:1–8. See, also, all the scenes opened in the Apocalypse.) And Christ, at his ascension, sat down at “the right hand of God,†“the right hand of the Majesty on high.†(Mark 16:19; Rom. 8:34; Heb. 1:3; 10:12, etc.) This must be a locality, because, the humanity of Christ being finite, his presence marks a definite place; yet the phrase “right hand of God†evidently marks rather the condition of honor and power to which Christ is raised as mediatorial King. As to the location of the place in which Christ and his glorified spouse will hold their central home throughout eternity, a strong probability is raised that it will be our present Earth, first burned with fire and then gloriously replenished. See (Rom. 8:19–23; 2 Pet. 3:5–13; Rev. 21:1.)[/list:u:5b227]

    We can prove these propositions in the following manner: recall what Scripture says regarding the conscious activity of souls in the intermediate state.

    The reappearance of Samuel in a conscious state, with the use of all his faculties, at the call of Saul and the witch of Endor (1 Sam. 28:7–20); the appearance of Moses and Elias at the transfiguration of Christ on the mount (Matt. 17:3); Christ’s address to the thief on the crossâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Today shalt thou be with me in paradise†(Luke 23:43); the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:23, 24)â€â€Lazarus is conscious and active in Abraham’s bosomâ€â€the rich man is in conscious torment in Hell (Hades), while his brethren are still living in the flesh. Of dying Stephen, it is declared (Acts 7:55–59) that being full of the Holy Ghost, he saw the heavens opened, and Jesus Christ standing at the right hand of God; so seeing, he cried, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,†and so died.

    In 2 Cor. 5:1–8, Paul declares that to be “at home in the body†is to be “absent from the Lordâ€Â; and to be “absent from the body†is to the believer to be “present with the Lordâ€Â; and hence he says (in Phil. 1:21–24) that for him “to die is gain,†and that he was “in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ; which is far better: nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.†In 1 Thess. 5:10, Paul declares that the sleep of death is a “living together with Christ.†In Eph. 3:15, the Church is declared to be one whole family, of which at present part is in heaven and part on earth. In Heb. 6:12–20, it is declared that after Abraham (and other ancient saints) “had patiently endured, he obtained the promisesâ€Â; which promises, we know, were in their true meaning spiritual and heavenly. In Acts 1:25, Judas is said to have gone “to his own place.†In Jude 6,7, the lost angels are said to be “reserved in ever fasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.†In Heb. 12:23, the spirits of the just are represented as “made perfect,†and happy with the angels in heaven. In Rev. 6:9–11, the souls of the martyrs are represented as under the altar in heaven, praying for the punishment of their former persecutors on earth, which of course must be before the resurrection. In Rev. 5:9; 7:9; 14:1,3, the souls of believers are represented as being now with Christ and the holy angels.

    The doctrine that the soul exists during the interval between death and the resurrection in a state of unconscious repose properly supposes the soul to be a distinct substance from the body. It is therefore to be distinguished from the materialistic theory, which assumes that as matter in certain states and combinations exhibits the phenomenon of magnetism or light, so in other combinations it exhibits the phenomenon of life, and in others the phenomenon of mind, and hence that vital and mental activity are as much the result or effect of the molecular arrangements of matter, as any physical operations in the external world. As in this view it would be absurd to speak of the sleep or quietude of magnetism or light when the conditions of their existence are absent, so it would be equally absurd, on this theory, to speak of the sleep of the soul after the dissolution of the body.

    Eusebius2 mentions a small sect of Christians in Arabia who held that the soul remained unconscious from death to the resurrection. At the time of the Reformation there was such a revival of that doctrine that Calvin deemed it expedient to write an essay devoted to its refutation.

    The Protestant doctrine on the state of the soul after death includes, first of all, the continued conscios existence of the soul after the dissolution of the body. This is opposed not only to the doctrine that the soul is merely a function of the body and perishes with it, but also to the doctrine of the sleep of the soul alluring the interval between death and the resurrection…i.e., that the soul sleeps, or remains without consciousness, or at least, without external activities, from death to the resurrection.â€Â[/list:u:5b227][/*:m:5b227][/list:o:5b227][/*:m:5b227][/list:u:5b227]2 Ecclesiastica Historia, vi. xxxvii.; edit. Cambridge, 1790, p. 299.
 
jgredline said:
Ok Gazz
By plucking out the single verse of John 3:16 you took it out of ''context''

First of all lets take a look at verse 1 and 2...Quickly we see that Nicodemus came to Jesus and said ''Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.â€Â...In the very next verse Jesus answers him with a statement that seemingly seems to suggest Jesus ignored what Nicodemus was saying and Jesus ''took'' control over the conversation and was in complete control over the context of what he wanted to discuss....Jesus tells Nicodemus ''Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.â€Â.......

Ok, So How did Nicodemus respond?...In verse four we see that Nicodemus was confused as you are...He thought Jesus was speaking of physical birth...

In verse 5 ''Jesus'' tells Nicodemus ''unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.''....Clearly Jesus is speaking of the spiritual realm here...Or do you believe we will march into heaven with our physical bodies??...

In verse 6 we See Jesus making a ''Clear distinction'' between the Flesh and the Spirit....Why do you suppose Jesus felt it necessary to be perfectly clear...Could it be for folks like you and Guibox who believed like Nicodemus?

In verses 7 and 8 Jesus continues to hammer it home that he is speaking of the Spiritual not the physical....
Let's look at some of the key texts that jg uses:

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

I think that jg is drawing a distinction that is different from the one that Jesus wants us to draw. I believe that jg thinks Jesus is drawing a "physical" vs "disembodied immortal soul" kind of distinction. I think that He is really making a "old nature" vs "new nature" distinction within a context where human beings are monistic - no body-soul dualism. It is perfectly reasonable to see the "Spirit giving birth to spirit" statement as the result of God reaching down in a single substance human person and "tweaking some buttons" in order to cause the transformation from the old nature to the new nature. In no way, must we see this process as requiring that people have a "physical" component and a "spirit" component.

So far, I simply offer an alternative view to that of jg. Why should the reader believe mine and not jg's? One reason is that the view expressed by jg is, if I understand him correctly, entirely inconsistent with the following from 1 Corinthians 15:

But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

Paul, for one, believes that we enter heaven in bodies. He refers to our future bodies as "heavenly" bodies (and elsewhere in this chapter as "spiritual" bodies), but they are indeed bodies as the above text clearly teaches.

The earthly body differs from the heavenly body in splendour, not in the sense of one being "physical" and the other being non-physical. The analogy to the celestial bodies makes it clear - since the moon, the Sun, and the stars are all physical.

How do we know that the dead are not already in Heaven in their "disembodied spirits" before the time of the resurrection? Elsewhere in the same chapter, Paul clearly states that we are "made alive" at the return of Christ. Those who believe that there are already souls / spirits in Heaven, need to believe that these souls / spirits, already experiencing full conscious existence, are "made alive" by being given a flesh covering. This is being made alive? Sounds more like just getting dressed.

So we do enter heaven in physical bodies and Jesus says nothing in John to contradict this. He is only seen as making a "physical" vs "disembodied spirit" distinction if one brings such a belief to this text and then ignore the rather clear teaching of 1 Cor 15.
 
Drew
Here is the difference between your interpretation and mine...
Mine uses the scriptures for support, while yours uses opinion...
Go back and read both post again carefully and Pray that the HS give you understanding....You are thinking like Nicodemus was...and your asking a question like the ones Paul referred to as a fool.....
 
The fact that Evangelical theologians reject the doctrine of soul sleep can be documented beyond all doubt. The following is just a sample of the standard rejection of the doctrine of soul sleep.


Evans, W., & Coder, S. M. 1998, c1974. The Great Doctrines of the Bible: John 11:11â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Our friend Lazarus sleepeth.†We have no ground in these words for the modern doctrine of soul-sleeping. Christ did not mean to say that the soul is unconscious between the time of death and the resurrection. For, when the disciples did not understand His figurative language, He told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead†(11:11–15). The experience (death-sleep) through which the believer passes ushers him at once into the presence of Christ. It takes him instantly to be “at home†with the Lord. Surely there can be no hint of unconsciousness or the sleeping of the soul in these words.
This is merely a claim with a highly misleading argument in it. We all know that most evangelical theologians reject soul sleep (although Luther believed it).

What is misleading in the above? It is the attempt to paint the soul sleep believer as being forced to deny Jesus' words that Lazarus is dead. We are supposed to stroke our beards conclude "Aha - Lazarus is not asleep after all so the soul-sleep position must be wrong".

I believe that when Lazarus died physically, his consciousness was extinguished and his body started to decompose. However, knowledge of Lazarus was "safely held" in the mind of God. So when Jesus called him forth, God / Jesus used that knowlede to restore Lazarus.

The point: If our physical death causes a cessation of all conscious functions, but we know that God will call us forth as He did Lazarus, it is entirely reasonable to call this post-death state "soul sleep". Jesus does this very thing when he says that Lazarus "sleepeth". When Jesus says that "Lazarus is dead", he is correcting the way the disciples interpreted his "Lazarus sleepeth" statement - they thought Jesus meant Lazarus was snoring away in good-old fashioned here-and-now kind of sleep.

He was most definitely not denying soul-sleep. He was in fact affirming it.
 
jgredline said:
Drew
Here is the difference between your interpretation and mine...
Mine uses the scriptures for support, while yours uses opinion...
Go back and read both post again carefully and Pray that the HS give you understanding....You are thinking like Nicodemus was...and your asking a question like the ones Paul referred to as a fool.....
If you have an counter-argument to my response to your post, please tell us exactly how my post is wrong. Calling me a fool will probably not cause readers to say "Oh that Drew is a fool, I wish I had known that, then I would not have needed to bother with the bothersome task of thinking objectively about Sriptural arguments from him"
 
Drew said:
jgredline said:
Drew
Here is the difference between your interpretation and mine...
Mine uses the scriptures for support, while yours uses opinion...
Go back and read both post again carefully and Pray that the HS give you understanding....You are thinking like Nicodemus was...and your asking a question like the ones Paul referred to as a fool.....
If you have an counter-argument to my response to your post, please tell us exactly how my post is wrong. Calling me a fool will probably not cause readers to say "Oh that Drew is a fool, I wish I had known that, then I would not have needed to bother with the bothersome task of thinking objectively about Sriptural arguments from him"
Based on the sentence structure, it appears that jggredline was designating your question(s) as being foolish as Paul indicates in Titus and 2 Timothy as follows:
  • But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9

    But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 2 Timothy 2:23
I do not read that jgredline was calling you a fool.
 
jgredline said:
One area of unbelief is how in the world are bodies that are 2000, 5000 year old corpses along with some that have been burned and destroyed or have turned back to dust be resurrected...., Paul did not consider these sorts of questions a wise person would ask, as is obvious from his response, How foolish!...He was straight calling some folks fools....
I think we are in agreement but you don't realize. I am not suggesting that we will have beheaded, burnt, and otherwise damaged bodies in the life to come. The best way I can descirbe it is this: God retains knowledge of the physicality of someone who dies, even if they are reduced to ashes in a fire. He uses that knowledge to re-constitute them in a physical form. Here is something from Isaiah

But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy
.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.


Here is the text where he uses the word "foolish"

But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

Paul could not be more clear. We get bodies - they are not the same kind of bodies that we have now. But let's be clear, the fact that a distinction is made between the earthly body and the heavenly body does not justify any kind of view that this body will not be recognizably physical - it will indeed and Paul drives home the fact the new body will be distinguished from the old body by its splendour, but it certainly will be a body. Heaven will be physical and we will be physical in it.

Let no one misunderstand, when I say we will be physical, I do not mean we will be like we are now. When I use the word "physical", I refer to a state of embodiment. I am not sure exactly what these bodies will be like - but they will be bodies. There will be no disembodied souls / spirits floating around in some ethereal domain. There will be a recreated earth and it will be recognizably physical.

I am entirely unsure what the point of the rest of jg's post is. He seems to believe, like I do, that we get bodies.

So I will ask jg for clarification. What will be form assumed by people after the resurrection? I have tried to be clear about my view. They will have bodies (and I will go out on a limb and say these bodies will have heads, hands, hair, feet, etc - just as Jesus' body did after the resurrection). These bodies will be "perfected" versions of the ones we have now. So please do not represent me as saying that Fred will get the same body he had before he died.
 
Drew
What part of this scripture do u not understand?

Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

So I ask you? What ''type'' of body does Jesus have in the heavenly realms?
Please provide, book, chapter and verse.....
 
Drew
We do get bodies..''spiritual bodies'' as the scriptures teach.
Our ''Souls/Spirits'' will be with Jesus forever and ever in a Spiritual body...

Those who do not enter the kingdom of God, their souls will burn forever and ever as Jesus teaches in Matt 25:41-46

Do you realize that God / Jesus created us for one reason and one reason only....''To worship him''...Jesus also tells us how we worship God....Through ''Spirit''...Our corpses can't worship God because they are corrupt.....I do not believe we will have a physical body in the heavenly realms...

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
jgredline said:
Drew
What part of this scripture do u not understand?

Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body
So I ask you? What ''type'' of body does Jesus have in the heavenly realms?
Please provide, book, chapter and verse.....
There is nothing in this text that contradicts my view. I think that 1 Cor 15 makes it clear - we will have bodies (which are by the very of the term "body", an entity that is extended in space - it is not a "free-floating disembodied spirit).

Since you think my view is in contradiction with the Phillipians text, perhaps you can tell us all what the exact problem is. I think our bodies will probably very much the obivously physical (yet changed) body that Jesus walked around in after the resurrection.
 
jgredline said:
Drew
We do get bodies..''spiritual bodies'' as the scriptures teach.
Our ''Souls/Spirits'' will be with Jesus forever and ever in a Spiritual body...

Those who do not enter the kingdom of God, their souls will burn forever and ever as Jesus teaches in Matt 25:41-46

Do you realize that God / Jesus created us for one reason and one reason only....''To worship him''...Jesus also tells us how we worship God....Through ''Spirit''...Our corpses can't worship God because they are corrupt.....I do not believe we will have a physical body in the heavenly realms...
You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish. I see 1 Cor 15 as clearly stating that those in Heaven will get physical bodies. If we are not going to have bodies, Paul would not have used terms like "heavenly body" and "spiritual body" and he would not have made the following rather clear statement:

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor

There is no disembodiment here at all. To use your reasoning, Paul would have to be saying that the sun, moon, and stars are not all physical. Yet they clearly are all physical. The analogy to the celestial bodies rules out the possibility of a non-physical body in Heaven.

In the sentence that precedes the stuff about the celestial bodies, Paul draws a distinction between earthly bodies and heavenly bodies. Fine. The statement about the celestial bodies obviously is intended to provide more clarity as to the nature of this distinction. For anyone to think we do not get physical bodies in the life to come, he would also have to believe that the distinction between the sun, moon, and stars is one of physicality vs non-physicality.
 
jgredline said:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
You appear to see the flesh vs spirit distinction as a "physical" vs "non-embodied" distinction. This is not the only choice. I think that the distinction is an "old nature" vs "new nature" distinction. I invite you to explain why you are right and I am wrong.

And the fact that God is a Spirit (John 4:24) or "God is spirit" (NASB version) does not mean that we are "spirits" also, just because we are told to worship him "in spirit and in truth". I see why you might think so, but the text does not really give us grounds to conclude that: If the phase "in spirit" meant that we are spirits in heaven, would we not also have to conclude that we are truth in heaven?

In any event, Paul bends over backwards in 1 Cor 15 to clearly state that we will have bodies in Heaven. While I admit we might debate John 4:24 some more, I cannot see how one come away from 1 Cor 15 and not believe that we will have bodies in heaven. Remember the analogy to the celestial bodies - Paul uses the distinctiveness of these bodies, one from the other, as a model for the distinction between the earthly body and the heavenly body. Yet obviously, none of the celestial bodies is non-physical. They differ in splendor, not in any kind of "physical vs "non-physical" sense.
 
Drew
Let me ask you a question before we go any further.

Do you believe in the trinity?

Do you believe that there is one God who exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Simple yes or no answers will do.
 
jgredline said:
Drew
Let me ask you a question before we go any further.

Do you believe in the trinity?

Do you believe that there is one God who exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Simple yes or no answers will do.
Yes
 
Drew
Cool...Now I just finished re-reading the threads again and I think we are both closer than we think...I agree we will receive a Body, but I do not believe it will be like the corpse like we have now....

Here is where the problem as I see it lies...and I am not 100% sure on this...

Follow me here...As I said earlier...
Jesus created us for one reason and one reason only....''To worship him''...Jesus also tells us how we worship God....Through ''Spirit''...Our corpses can't worship God because they are corrupt.....I do not believe we will have a physical body like we have now in the heavenly realms...The question is, What type / kind of body will we have....Lets spend some time taking a closer look at some scripture....

Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Ok, so here we have Paul clearly telling us that Jesus himself will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body....The question then is...what does Paul mean when he says conformed to his Glorious body?????

The Greek adjective that Paul uses for conformed is ''σύμμορφος''..This word simply means having the same form as another, similar, conformed to...Since it precedes the definite article This verse would seem to imply that we will have bodies like Christ....

Now lets look at a couple of key verses...
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ â€Â

John 20:26-27
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.â€Â
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!â€Â

So Here we have two verses that tell us clearly That Jesus resurrection was physical...I point this out because many cults and atheist teach that Jesus rose spiritually only....This is not the case as there was hundreds of witnesses that saw the risen Lord....I say this, because this is not the issue,..The issue is what type of body will we have in the heavenly realms and not the earthly realms...

Now lets look at
1 cor 15:40
40 There are also celestial (ἐπουράνιος / heavenly) bodies and terrestrial (ἐπίγειος / earthly) bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Ok...So here Paul makes it clear that there are ''two'' types of bodies...The Greek says Heavenly body and earthly body.....
So there is no dought we will have a body, but what kind or Type....


Lets look at another scripture...
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Now since God is Spirit and we must worship in spirit and in truth, it would stand to reason that we would have to be or have a distinct spirit would it not?....
 
Here is what John MacArthur has to say about this...
The Form of Resurrection Bodies
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (15:39–42a)

These verses expand on Paul’s previous point that our resurrection bodies will be different from our earthly bodies. Seeing the vast differences in God’s creation, we should not question His ability to create bodies that are different and yet continuous.

All flesh is not the same flesh indicates the amazing variety of earthly bodies God has made. We need only look around us to see the virtually infinite assortment of created beings and things. In the biological world the flesh of men is absolutely distinct from the flesh of beasts, the flesh of birds, and the flesh of fish. All flesh is not of the same kind.

I have read that there are some six hundred octodecillion different combinations of amino acids. An octodecillion is 10 to the 108th power, or 1 followed by 108 zeros. Amino acids are the building blocks of all life. Not only does each type of plant and animal life have a distinct pattern of amino acids, but each individual plant, animal, and human being has its own unique grouping of them. No two flowers, snowflakes, seeds, blades of grass, or human beingsâ€â€even identical twinsâ€â€are exactly alike. Yet each is completely identified with its own species or kind.

Those two facts make one of the strongest scientific evidences against evolution. No matter what we may eat, no matter how specialized or unbalanced our diet may be, and no matter what our environment may be, we will never change into another form of life. We may become healthier or more sickly, heavier or lighter, but we will never be anything but a human being and never any human being but the one we are. The biological codes are binding and unique. There is no repeatable or demonstrable scientific proof that one form of life has changed or could change into another.

There are also heavenly bodies, which obviously differ greatly from earthly bodies in glory, that is, in nature, manifestation, and form. Not only are the heavenly bodies vastly different from the earthly; they are greatly different from each other. The sun is greatly different from the moon, and both are different from the stars. From astronomy we know that many of what normally are called stars actually are planets, and therefore similar to the earth and moon, and that true stars are themselves suns. But Paul was speaking from the perspective of normal human observation, not from the perspective of science. From either perspective, however, his basic point is true. The stars generate their own light, while the planets and moons only reflect light produced by the stars. In that way the two types of heavenly bodies are greatly different in glory, that is, in character and manifestation.
Even star differs from star in glory. Donald Peattie has written,

Like flowers, the stars have their own colors. At your first upward glance all gleam white as frost crystals, but single out this one and that for observation and you will find a subtle spectrum in the stars. The quality of their lights is determined by their temperatures. In the December sky you will see Aldebaran as pale rose, Rigel as bluish white and Betelgeuse orange to topaz yellow.

Every star is different, just as every plant is different, every animal is different, and every human being is different. God has infinite creative capacity, including the capacity to make infinite variety. Why would anyone think it hard for Him to re–create and resurrect human bodies, no matter what the form might be?

So also is the resurrection of the dead. Resurrection bodies will differ from earthly bodies just as radically as heavenly bodies differ from earthly. And resurrection bodies will be as individual and unique as are all the other forms of God’s creation.

When Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration they were as distinctly individual as they had been while living on earth. They did not then have resurrected bodies, but they were distinct beings of heaven, who one day will have distinct heavenly bodies. God is, not was, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacobâ€â€the God of the living, not of the dead (Matt. 22:32). Those patriarchs are not merely alive in heaven, but are alive as the same persons they were on earth. Jesus knows all His sheep by name (John 10:3), whether they are in heaven or still on earth. Our resurrection bodies will be as uniquely ours as our spirits and our names.

MacArthur, J.

Now this really does not tell us anything more than we have already discussed, but thought it might tidy it up a little....I will spend some more time looking at the scriptures on this topic....
 
jgredline said:
Now since God is Spirit and we must worship in spirit and in truth, it would stand to reason that we would have to be or have a distinct spirit would it not?....
I have some empathy for your position here, but I think that the answer is in fact that we do not, at least not in the "immortal consciousness bearing" sense of being or having a "spirit".

I believe that I have never denied that we all have a "spirit" - I have only denied that it is immortal and / or consciousness-bearing. I think that the words "soul" and "spirit" are descriptive terms loosely (note that I say loosely) analogous to words like "personality" and "mind". I also think, based on texts like 1 Corinthians 15, that the term "spiritual" is more of a reference to a new and transformed nature rather than a reference to a domain of immortal consciousness bearing disembodied things.

I see "spirit" (new nature) as standing in contrast to "flesh" (old nature).

I do not see flesh as a synonym for the "physical" - I think that view is untenable in light of 1 Cor 15.

Therefore, I do not see "spirit" as standing in contrast to the "physical"

Without getting into a long post, I will suggest that to worship God in spirit means that we are to worship him in accordance with our new nature (that is, a transformation performed by God on our monistic nature) and does not lead to a conclusion that we worship him with a component of our being that can exist independent of our bodies.

You say that you do not believe that we will have a "a physical body like we have now". I think that all bodies are, by definition "physical". Perhaps we simply differ in respect to some terminology.
 
Drew said:
I have some empathy for your position here, but I think that the answer is in fact that we do not, at least not in the "immortal consciousness bearing" sense of being or having a "spirit".
…You are correct is saying that we do not all have a Spirit….This has been my position all along… Paul makes it perfectly clear in this passage…

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you…

So clearly Paul again makes a clear distinction between body and Spirit which again affirms that the ‘’Wholeistic’’ view is not accurate…but affirms that the Christian is a Trichotomy….pay close attention to the word ‘’IF’’


I believe that I have never denied that we all have a "spirit" - I have only denied that it is immortal and / or consciousness-bearing. I think that the words "soul" and "spirit" are descriptive terms loosely (note that I say loosely) analogous to words like "personality" and "mind". I also think, based on texts like 1 Corinthians 15, that the term "spiritual" is more of a reference to a new and transformed nature rather than a reference to a domain of immortal consciousness bearing disembodied things.

I see "spirit" (new nature) as standing in contrast to "flesh" (old nature).

I do not see flesh as a synonym for the "physical" - I think that view is untenable in light of 1 Cor 15.

Therefore, I do not see "spirit" as standing in contrast to the "physical"
Ok, Then how do you explain Romans 8:9-11 when Paul is pretty clear that not everybody has the Spirit and he even goes on to say that it will give life to our ‘’mortal bodies’’…meaning that we have eternal life…This does not mean that we will have our physical bodies forever as is evident by all the saints who have died before us, yet we know many have gone on to have eternal life….

Without getting into a long post, I will suggest that to worship God in spirit means that we are to worship him in accordance with our new nature (that is, a transformation performed by God on our monistic nature) and does not lead to a conclusion that we worship him with a component of our being that can exist independent of our bodies.

You say that you do not believe that we will have a "a physical body like we have now". I think that all bodies are, by definition "physical". Perhaps we simply differ in respect to some terminology.
I agree with what your saying here except, I believe that we go from being a dichotomy to a trichotomy…..
 
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