Is Yahweh and Allah one?

[Free]

Not at all. Christ and the Father were one from the beginning. Islam denies this.

That's not the point. The point is that you are arguing that Allah cannot be Yahweh based on Islam's denial that Jesus is God incarnate. But Jews deny this as well. It logically follows then that the Jews are not worshiping Yahweh. Yet you state that the Christian God and Jewish God are the same. This is a contradiction.

You took my statement completely out of context. People are free (ironic given you name) to believe whatever they wish. Do you disagree with this, too? If someone wants to believe against all reason that the moon is made of green cheese, who am I to change their mind?

But if that same individual wants to impose their world view on someone else through violence, then that person needs to be stopped whatever the cost.

If you think that's un-Christian, how do you feel about the military or cops??? 2

I took nothing out of context. Jesus himself said:

Matt 5:44 "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," (ESV)

Luke 6:27 "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you," (ESV)

Luke 6:33 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil." (ESV)

And Paul said:

Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (ESV)

Those are the proper Christian responses.

What an immoderate comment for a moderator to make. Mind addressing the issues and not the person, please?

I did address the issue and it is a significant one.

Judaism denies the Son despite the teachings of the Old Testament. Islam denies the Son because of the teachings of the Koran.

That's the difference that seems to be getting lost here.

Yet that difference doesn't matter as far as the problem with your argument is concerned. If both deny the Son, you cannot arbitrarily say that one doesn't worship Yahweh and one does. It is irrelevant why they deny him.

And of course, it is much easier for us as Christians who believe in the revelations given in the NT to read back into the OT ideas from the NT and see where the Son is spoken of or alluded to.

Maybe this makes my thoughts more clear.... They meaning the old saints David Moses etc. prayed to the Father. As a religion today they ( the modern Jew) do not have the Father. Christ is the Way to the Father He is the only Way.

Yes, that makes it more clear. I think though that the point of them "not having the Father," as per the previous verse you posted, is that they will not be saved apart from believing in Jesus as the Christ. I just don't think it means that they don't currently worship Yahweh, as they still worship the God of the OT.

In other words, they worship the same God as the God of the Christian faith, it's just that if they don't believe the full revelation with Jesus as the Messiah, they will not be saved and their worship is in vain.

Do you agree with that?

 

[Stormcrow]

That's not the point. The point is that you are arguing that Allah cannot be Yahweh based on Islam's denial that Jesus is God incarnate. But Jews deny this as well. It logically follows then that the Jews are not worshiping Yahweh. Yet you state that the Christian God and Jewish God are the same. This is a contradiction.

The sovereign, independent and intrinsic nature of God does not depend on those who do or do not recognize Him! Your view (and that of others) makes the nature of God dependent upon those who worship Him and calls into question the veracity of the apostles who told us who God is!

The only contradiction I see here is that you - who claim to be Christian - do not recognize the uniqueness of the gospel as it relates to the oneness of the Father and Christ!

God's nature is not subject to the vagaries of human doctrine!

If both deny the Son, you cannot arbitrarily say that one doesn't worship Yahweh and one does. It is irrelevant why they deny him.

Please point me to the post where I wrote I believed that the Jews worship God. They have their own ideas about who God is (just as Muslims do), but Christ's coming showed us the true nature of God. It's what the books of John and Romans are all about, which is why most new Christians are told to start reading the Bible there!

There are Jews who worship God as revealed in Christ: they are part of His body, too. Those who do not come to the Father through Him are participating in religious rituals, not worship!

 

[Stormcrow]

Those are the proper Christian responses.

The proper response - Christian or otherwise - to murderous dogs who would threaten to kill innocent men, women, and children is to take them down. Period. I stand by what I wrote then and now.

You should thank God every day for people who are willing to lay down their lives for you and those you love so that you don't have to.

 

[Stormcrow]

If both deny the Son, you cannot arbitrarily say that one doesn't worship Yahweh and one does.

One more point on this issue:

It does not logically follow that just because Jews and Muslims deny the Son that the God one claims to worship is, therefore, the same God the other claims to worship. The intrinsic nature of God Himself is that which defines God - not those who deny His Son.

If Hindus said Shiva were the God of the Old Testament, on the grounds that they, too, deny the Son, should we believe them?

 

[DarkHorseRising]

That's not the point. The point is that you are arguing that Allah cannot be Yahweh based on Islam's denial that Jesus is God incarnate. But Jews deny this as well. It logically follows then that the Jews are not worshiping Yahweh. Yet you state that the Christian God and Jewish God are the same. This is a contradiction.

Judaism is the foundation, which foretold the coming of a messiah. On that, Jews and Christians are on exactly the same page. While Christians know that this came true through Jesus, Judaism is still waiting. There's no difference in theology, just in the recognition of prophecy fulfillment.

Islam, on the other hand, changed the rules. Rather than accept a loving Messiah, they switched around scripture to deify Mohammed. The inherent theology had to be changed to allow a mortal to become a god (albeit a false one).

Nothing in Christianity or Judaism allows for the declaring of a human as God. In both Christianity and Judaism, unlike Islam, the Son is (born or otherwise) already part of the Trinity.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Judaism denies the Son despite the teachings of the Old Testament. Islam denies the Son because of the teachings of the Koran.

That's the difference that seems to be getting lost here.

Cluse, but the second part is misleading. Islam denies the Son because Mohammed wanted to take His place. He then wrote the Koran around this.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason it is more complicated than that. More complicated than i have words for.

I will try
Your heart is unto the Lord.... You know God as God the Father, Son and Spirit.
There have been times when i have cried unto God calling Him Daddy because of the emotional state i was in... I believe with your family history and your personal relationship with Jesus it is an honor for you to call on YHWH.

It is not the word, not the alphabetical letters ,not the spelling, we use but belief behind the word. He looks on our heart....

actually because YHWH means this God is whom you see when you take your first breath and the last breath.

im now forced in such a state.

 

[tessiewebb]

Judaism is the foundation, which foretold the coming of a messiah. On that, Jews and Christians are on exactly the same page. While Christians know that this came true through Jesus, Judaism is still waiting. There's no difference in theology, just in the recognition of prophecy fulfillment.

Islam, on the other hand, changed the rules. Rather than accept a loving Messiah, they switched around scripture to deify Mohammed. The inherent theology had to be changed to allow a mortal to become a god (albeit a false one).

Nothing in Christianity or Judaism allows for the declaring of a human as God. In both Christianity and Judaism, unlike Islam, the Son is (born or otherwise) already part of the Trinity.

Very good points, DarkHorseRising, Jesus was from the beginning with God and is God in the sense of being part of the Godhead. It is His Spirit and God's Spirit that makes them One, for it is the Holy Spirit of both. Amazing when you think of it that God trusted a human mother and a man who would be known as His father to raise Him from a baby to a grown man. It is no wonder that He grew in favor with man, being God in the flesh, but that He also grew in favor with His Father is a mark of His style of living. He is bright and shining with glory. Islam's "god" is dark and evil in his thinking. Who could not detect that those are not the same? Our God gives life. Theirs hates life and kills, steals and destroys it. Ours gave His blood, theirs demands blood from them.

 

[Seeker]

Cluse, but the second part is misleading. Islam denies the Son because Mohammed wanted to take His place. He then wrote the Koran around this.

Judaism is the foundation, which foretold the coming of a messiah. On that, Jews and Christians are on exactly the same page. While Christians know that this came true through Jesus, Judaism is still waiting. There's no difference in theology, just in the recognition of prophecy fulfillment.

Islam, on the other hand, changed the rules. Rather than accept a loving Messiah, they switched around scripture to deify Mohammed. The inherent theology had to be changed to allow a mortal to become a god (albeit a false one).

Nothing in Christianity or Judaism allows for the declaring of a human as God. In both Christianity and Judaism, unlike Islam, the Son is (born or otherwise) already part of the Trinity.

I'm sorry to say this, but, you really don't have a clue. Did you know that the word "Muhammad" is mentioned but 4 times in the entire Quran? Did you know that neither his birth, nor the names of his father, mother, or children are recorded in the Quran? Did you know that there is a whole CHAPTER in the name of Mary, and the second-longest chapter is in the name of Jesus' maternal grandfather (it speaks about Mary's own blessed birth, then Jesus).

Did you know that we call Jesus "al-Maseeh" (el-mashiach), translated to the Greek "Christ"? And I think if you told a Jew "there's no difference in theology", they would have a fit! What do you think their opinion on the Trinity is?

Point to one verse of the Quran that deifies Muhammad. Rather, the Quran says that he is a messenger, and that God is one, single, unique. He is eternal, depending on none while all depend on him. He does not beget, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. (chapter 112)

 

[DarkHorseRising]

I'm sorry to say this, but, you really don't have a clue. Did you know that the word "Muhammad" is mentioned but 4 times in the entire Quran? Did you know that neither his birth, nor the names of his father, mother, or children are recorded in the Quran? Did you know that there is a whole CHAPTER in the name of Mary, and the second-longest chapter is in the name of Jesus' maternal grandfather (it speaks about Mary's own blessed birth, then Jesus).

Did you know that we call Jesus "al-Maseeh" (el-mashiach), translated to the Greek "Christ"? And I think if you told a Jew "there's no difference in theology", they would have a fit! What do you think their opinion on the Trinity is?

Point to one verse of the Quran that deifies Muhammad. Rather, the Quran says that he is a messenger, and that God is one, single, unique. He is eternal, depending on none while all depend on him. He does not beget, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. (chapter 112)

If Mohammed is an ordinary guy, why do Muslims want to kill people for drawing a picture of him?

Islam absolutely deifies him in a way that's completely inappropriate for a mortal.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Very simple analogy that explains what I'm trying to say:


Judaism: "We were told the ice cream man would come by"

Christianity: "We were told he'd come, and look, there he is, giving away free ice cream"

Islam: "I'm the ice cream man, even though I have no ice cream. Here's some sardines"

 

[Seeker]

One more point on this issue:

It does not logically follow that just because Jews and Muslims deny the Son that the God one claims to worship is, therefore, the same God the other claims to worship. The intrinsic nature of God Himself is that which defines God - not those who deny His Son.

If Hindus said Shiva were the God of the Old Testament, would we believe them?

OK - so now there is a question! What is the criterion for accepting a "name" as a valid name of worship? If I want to worship "The Creator", there is no objection to that. But can I use the name "Shiva" in worship?

17:110 Say: "Call upon God, or call upon the Most Merciful: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.

59:22 God is He, than Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
59:23 God is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to God! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
59:24 He is God, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

So to the question - can we call God "Shiva"? Category number one: is it a beautiful name? Now, I'm not lettered in Sanskrit so can't tell you the meaning of the word, but let us assume that it passes that test of having a beautiful meaning. But the problem is something else: that name is associated with a partner they have given unto God. The name Shiva conjures up a mental picture of a demi-god, goddess of destruction. As such, it would be impermissible to use as the important aspect of a NAME is that it directs attention towards a specific place/person/object. Saying "SHIVA" directs attention towards a statue or goddess with a form. This is not God. If you say "Creator" that is fine. If you say "Ti-An" as in Chinese, that is fine, because it means "Great God of Heaven". If you say "God" in English, that is fine, because it means "He who is supplicated". Allah, Eloh, Alaha, Elohim, El, are all fine to use, because they mean "He who is worshipped" and does not conjure up any limited, created being as an image.

 

[Stormcrow]

Cluse, but the second part is misleading. Islam denies the Son because Mohammed wanted to take His place.

No, Islam denies the Son because the teachings of the Koran deny that Allah is a Father.

As I noted before, Mohammed plagiarized the Old Testament and put his own, twisted spin on it. This is what accounts for the Koran's similarities to the flood story, Abraham, Moses, and the Koran's legalism - based on Mosaic Law. This, however, does not mean that the God of the Old Testament is the "allah" of the Koran, any moreso than a Jehovah's Witnesses claims about the nature of Jehovah are true.

Islam is nothing more than a dangerous cult, like so many others that have come and gone.

 

[Seeker]

Very simple analogy that explains what I'm trying to say:

Sir, I understood well what you were trying to say. Misunderstanding on my part isn't the issue, so your silly analogy is unnecessary. Rather than waste time on such things, try to understand what I contributed - this is discussion, not me talking to a brick wall!

 

[DarkHorseRising]

No, Islam denies the Son because the teachings of the Koran deny that Allah is a Father.

As I noted before, Mohammed plagiarized the Old Testament and put his own, twisted spin on it. This is what accounts for the Koran's similarities to the flood story, Abraham, Moses, and the Koran's legalism - based on Mosaic Law. This, however, does not mean that the God of the Old Testament is the "allah" of the Koran, any moreso than a Jehovah's Witnesses claims about the nature of Jehovah are true.

Islam is nothing more than a dangerous cult, like so many others that have come and gone.

It seems we agree on the conclusion, if not the rationale. Maybe both arguments have some validity.

 

[Stormcrow]

why do Muslims want to kill people for drawing a picture of him?

Dangerous cultists.

 

[Seeker]

No, Islam denies the Son because the teachings of the Koran deny that Allah is a Father.

You know, if you withdrew your poisonous attitude and grew in willingness to discuss, we could actually have a very fruitful and interesting conversation. Something to think about.

Do we deny that God is a "father"? While there is nothing wrong with using that word, in the sense that God created us, raised us, looks after us, etc., we do NOT find the word "abb" in our scripture. Instead, we find the word "rabb", which means Lord, but has the same meanings of creating, raising, and sustaining. Why? I believe it is because - while the Semitic peoples understood the meaning of God as a father and the righteous as sons of God, when viewed through Greek goggles people became confused. So for our own sake, and to protect us from misconceptions, Almighty God used the word "rabb" (Lord/Cherisher/Sustainer) instead of "abb" (Father/Cherisher/Sustainer), as the former is much more clear in distinction.

 

[Stormcrow]

You know, if you withdrew your poisonous attitude and grew in willingness to discuss, we could actually have a very fruitful and interesting conversation. Something to think about.

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11 (NASB)

There's nothing to discuss.

 

[reba]

Yes, that makes it more clear. I think though that the point of them "not having the Father," as per the previous verse you posted, is that they will not be saved apart from believing in Jesus as the Christ. I just don't think it means that they don't currently worship Yahweh, as they still worship the God of the OT.

In other words, they worship the same God as the God of the Christian faith, it's just that if they don't believe the full revelation with Jesus as the Messiah, they will not be saved and their worship is in vain.

Do you agree with that?

No i do not agree.... God is Who He is... We are not going to change God into what we want...He has stated He is a jealous God...
The Christian God has a Son to reject the Son is to reject the Father (He says so) To then say we worship the same God is to deny Christ. It is simple and complex at the same time. One can not turn God away from the Son. Doing so in our minds changes Who He is, in only our minds.

Wish i had a way with words!

 

[Stormcrow]

No i do not agree.... God is Who He is... We are not going to change God into what we want...He has stated He is a jealous God...
The Christian God has a Son to reject the Son is to reject the Father (He says so) To then say we worship the same God is to deny Christ. It is simple and complex at the same time. One can not turn God away from the Son. Doing so in our minds changes Who He is, in only our minds.

Wish i had a way with words!

You're doing fine!

This is one of the things that frustrates me about the arbitrary division of the Bible into Old and New Testaments, because the New Testament is written almost exclusively by Jews - who were living under the Law - using much of the same language of the Old Testament.

The only writer not Jewish was Luke, and he was Paul's fellow traveler: the same Paul who called himself a "Pharisee of Pharisees!"

God incarnate - the Son - is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy! Islam denies the Son's deity and - therefore - denies God Himself. Yes, Jews deny Christ's deity, too, but they do so in spite of the Law and the Prophets whereas Islam denies His deity because of the teaching of their prophet.

The difference is that the Old Testament is a road sign pointed to God incarnate that non-believing Jews ignore on the road still looking for their Messiah.

The Koran is a road sign that points away from God incarnate altogether.

If someone had nothing other than the Old Testament for salvation, they could find Jesus Christ through it and be saved.

If someone had nothing other than the Koran for salvation, they would be lost for all eternity.

That is the difference.